How does everyone view Shia in terms of being A Muslim?

[Thou Exalted]

[ Absolut Terror ]

Yes. I have seen things about the Shi'a aqeedah which are taken from Sh'ia authentic books such as Al-Kafi and the like.

I asked for proof of Imamah from the Qur'an. Here's why:
There are 5 main things in the Aqeedah of Shi'as. They are,
1. Tawheed (Oneness of God)
2. Nabuwwah (Prophethood)
3. Ma’ad (Day of Judgement)
4. Adl (Justice of God)
5. Imamah (the above stated doctrine)

Every single fundamental of Islam is mentioned in the Quran numerous times. Tawheed and the concept of Allah (عز و جل) are mentioned over two thousand times. The concept of Messengers and Prophets [Risalah and Nabuwwah] is mentioned repeatedly; in fact, the words “Rasool” and “Nabi” are used over four hundred times. All of the other Usool-e-Deen (fundamental of religion), other than Imamah, are mentioned hundreds of times in the Quran. Yet, the Quran remains completely silent on the issue of Imamah.

The concept is something so core to the Sh'ia religion [in fact, it is the one thing that causes Shias to be different from Sunnis], but unlike all the other fundamentals, it's nowhere to be found! Not unless you take verses and twist their meaning around.

==========================================

Also, what is your opinion of the Sahaba? When the Grand Ayatola Muhammad Shahroudi was asked:
"My Habibi, my question is regarding the cursing that is found in the Dua’s of the Ziyarat of Ashura, and I talk in particular about the cursing of: the First (Abu Bakr), the Second (Umar), the Third (Uthman). Is it part of the Ziyarat and has it been reported by the Infallible (a.s)? Or has it been rejected? And did the Imams from Ahl al-Bayt allow the cursing of these three and did they say the person who does it is rewarded?"

He answered:
Yes, cursing is permissible in the Ziyarat of Ashura. Repeat it hundreds of times. It has been reported that the Imams cursed and this was not just the cursing of the oppressors of Ashura, but repeatedly (others as well). And this is found in a lot of similar Hadiths. And yes, the cursing must not be done in a matter to reveal the Taqiyyah.

From looking at the Grand Ayatola's opinion, I can say that Shi'ism does involve the cursing of the Sahaba. Just because you haven't heard of certain things doesn't mean they're not part of the religion.

I know that, that is the reason I am researching. But really I can never accept the fact of all this hating on whomever.

I do believe all the Sahaba should be respected for being early converts of Islam and never doubting The Prophet (SAW) and Allah (SWT), so for this reason if there are certain Shia's who believe in this Al - Kafi as a Holy book or believe it is correct then I disagree. The only difference I see is the Imam's accepting the Caliph, All these other false accusations Radical Shia's put are obviously false if they conflict with the Qur'an.

In Conclusion, I only go by the Qur'an and what has been given, but staying strictly to those two things so much that you keep everything else away causes you to have a closed mind.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Haydar the Truthful

I know that, that is the reason I am researching. But really I can never accept the fact of all this hating on whomever.

I do believe all the Sahaba should be respected for being early converts of Islam and never doubting The Prophet (SAW) and Allah (SWT), so for this reason if there are certain Shia's who believe in this Al - Kafi as a Holy book or believe it is correct then I disagree. The only difference I see is the Imam's accepting the Caliph, All these other false accusations Radical Shia's put are obviously false if they conflict with the Qur'an.

In Conclusion, I only go by the Qur'an and what has been given, but staying strictly to those two things so much that you keep everything else away causes you to have a closed mind.

Alhamdulillah. That simply means that you are not fully upon the path of Shi'ism. But your personal disagreement with something doesn't help the case of Shi'ism at all.

I don't think that any Shi'a thinks of Al-Kafi to be a holy book. However, it is important for the Aqeedah of Shi'as because that is the main book of "hadith" for Shi'as. Just as Sunnis give heavy acceptance to Bukhari, Shi'as give acceptance to Kafi. So anything in that book does reflect upon the beliefs of Shi'ism.

So why do you reject the Khilafa of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman? What is your opinion about those three Sahaba?  

[Thou Exalted]

[ Absolut Terror ]

Haydar the Truthful

I know that, that is the reason I am researching. But really I can never accept the fact of all this hating on whomever.

I do believe all the Sahaba should be respected for being early converts of Islam and never doubting The Prophet (SAW) and Allah (SWT), so for this reason if there are certain Shia's who believe in this Al - Kafi as a Holy book or believe it is correct then I disagree. The only difference I see is the Imam's accepting the Caliph, All these other false accusations Radical Shia's put are obviously false if they conflict with the Qur'an.

In Conclusion, I only go by the Qur'an and what has been given, but staying strictly to those two things so much that you keep everything else away causes you to have a closed mind.

Alhamdulillah. That simply means that you are not fully upon the path of Shi'ism. But your personal disagreement with something doesn't help the case of Shi'ism at all.

I don't think that any Shi'a thinks of Al-Kafi to be a holy book. However, it is important for the Aqeedah of Shi'as because that is the main book of "hadith" for Shi'as. Just as Sunnis give heavy acceptance to Bukhari, Shi'as give acceptance to Kafi. So anything in that book does reflect upon the beliefs of Shi'ism.

So why do you reject the Khilafa of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman? What is your opinion about those three Sahaba?

I simply believe they should be respected for helping the Prophet (SAW), but I don't believe they deserved the Caliph.

I actually found a pretty good Shia site explaining TRUE Shi'ism, none of this other stuff people deviate from the truth. Pretty long page of explaining though.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Haydar the Truthful

[ Absolut Terror ]

Haydar the Truthful

I know that, that is the reason I am researching. But really I can never accept the fact of all this hating on whomever.

I do believe all the Sahaba should be respected for being early converts of Islam and never doubting The Prophet (SAW) and Allah (SWT), so for this reason if there are certain Shia's who believe in this Al - Kafi as a Holy book or believe it is correct then I disagree. The only difference I see is the Imam's accepting the Caliph, All these other false accusations Radical Shia's put are obviously false if they conflict with the Qur'an.

In Conclusion, I only go by the Qur'an and what has been given, but staying strictly to those two things so much that you keep everything else away causes you to have a closed mind.

Alhamdulillah. That simply means that you are not fully upon the path of Shi'ism. But your personal disagreement with something doesn't help the case of Shi'ism at all.

I don't think that any Shi'a thinks of Al-Kafi to be a holy book. However, it is important for the Aqeedah of Shi'as because that is the main book of "hadith" for Shi'as. Just as Sunnis give heavy acceptance to Bukhari, Shi'as give acceptance to Kafi. So anything in that book does reflect upon the beliefs of Shi'ism.

So why do you reject the Khilafa of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman? What is your opinion about those three Sahaba?

I simply believe they should be respected for helping the Prophet (SAW), but I don't believe they deserved the Caliph.

I actually found a pretty good Shia site explaining TRUE Shi'ism, none of this other stuff people deviate from the truth. Pretty long page of explaining though.

What do you think of this? :

`Ali named Abu Bakr and `Umar the Shaykh al-Islam of the Community and said: “The best of this Community after its Prophet are Abu Bakr and `Umar,”

`Ali further said: “The most courageous of people is Abu Bakr,” and “The greatest in reward among people for the volumes of the Qur’an is Abu Bakr, for he was the first of those who gathered the Qur’an between two covers.” He was also the first to name it mushaf.

Abu Bakr’s high rank is indicated, among other signs, by the fact that to deny his Companionship to the Prophet entails disbelief (kufr), unlike the denial of the Companionship of `Umar, `Uthman, and `Ali to the Prophet. This is due to the mention of this companionship in the verse: “The second of two when the two were in the cave, and he said unto his companion: Grieve not” (9:40) which refers, by Consensus, to the Prophet and Abu Bakr. Allah further praised him above the rest by saying: “Those who spent and fought before the victory are not upon a level (with the rest of you).” (57:10)

The Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] said: “Among those most dedicated to me in his companionship and property is Abu Bakr. If I were to take an intimate friend other than my Lord, I would take Abu Bakr. But what binds us is the brotherhood of Islam and its love. Let no door [of the Prophet’s mosque] remain open except Abu Bakr’s.”

The Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] said: “If I were to take an intimate friend, I would take Ibn Abi Quhafa (i.e. Abu Bakr) as my intimate friend. Verily, your Companion is the intimate friend of Allah!”

The Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] said: “You (Abu Bakr) are my companion at the Basin and my companion in the Cave.”

The Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] said: “Call Abu Bakr and his son so that I will put something down in writing, for I fear lest someone ambitious forward a claim, and Allah and the believers refuse anyone other than Abu Bakr.”

Amr ibn al-`As asked: “O Messenger of Allah, who is the most beloved of all men to you?” He (the Messenger) replied: “Abu Bakr.”

The Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] said: “It is impermissible for a people among whom is Abu Bakr, to be led by other than him.”

The Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] said: “Take for your leaders those who come after me: Abu Bakr and `Umar.”

The Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] said: “O`Ali! Abu Bakr and `Umar are the leaders of the mature inhabitants of Paradise and its youth among the first and the last, except for Prophets and Messengers.”

The Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] said: “The sun never rose nor set over anyone better than Abu Bakr.”

The Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] said: “Jibril came to me, took me by the hand, and showed me the gate through which my Community shall enter Paradise.” Abu Bakr said: “Would that I were with you to see it!” The Prophet said: “Did you not know? You will be the first of all my Community to enter it.”

The Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] respected Abu Bakr’s Companionship so much that he would marry his daughter, Aisha bint Abu Bakr. Therefore, Abu Bakr had the honor of being the Prophet’s father-in-law.  

[Thou Exalted]

I'm starting to think we're getting off the topic here, regardless if we're talking of Shi'a I asked how does everyone VIEW Shi'a, not which Sect is correct.

If your really that dedicated to turning everyone into A Sunni, You could try it elsewhere since I'm not one to argue with.

My belief is mine and yours is yours, Causing arguments constantly causes both of us to be lead astray, do you not agree?  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Haydar the Truthful

I'm starting to think we're getting off the topic here, regardless if we're talking of Shi'a I asked how does everyone VIEW Shi'a, not which Sect is correct.

If your really that dedicated to turning everyone into A Sunni, You could try it elsewhere since I'm not one to argue with.

My belief is mine and yours is yours, Causing arguments constantly causes both of us to be lead astray, do you not agree?

You've got a point, but I feel that presenting my opinion is crucial to how a view Shi'a, since people would think I'm some hateful sectarian unless I bring forth my proof.  

[Thou Exalted]

[ Absolut Terror ]

Haydar the Truthful

I'm starting to think we're getting off the topic here, regardless if we're talking of Shi'a I asked how does everyone VIEW Shi'a, not which Sect is correct.

If your really that dedicated to turning everyone into A Sunni, You could try it elsewhere since I'm not one to argue with.

My belief is mine and yours is yours, Causing arguments constantly causes both of us to be lead astray, do you not agree?

You've got a point, but I feel that presenting my opinion is crucial to how a view Shi'a, since people would think I'm some hateful sectarian unless I bring forth my proof.

No one holds such opinions in the heart of a Muslim, Arguing over evidence and such brings us no where except to deception by Shitan. I have also seen some quotes from A reliable source that one who argues too much is full of ignorance. So all I am asking for is how you feel toward Shi'a. I could care less if you think we are muslims or not for only Allah (SWT) determines who is a Muslim and who is not, not Muslims themselves.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Haydar the Truthful

[ Absolut Terror ]

Haydar the Truthful

I'm starting to think we're getting off the topic here, regardless if we're talking of Shi'a I asked how does everyone VIEW Shi'a, not which Sect is correct.

If your really that dedicated to turning everyone into A Sunni, You could try it elsewhere since I'm not one to argue with.

My belief is mine and yours is yours, Causing arguments constantly causes both of us to be lead astray, do you not agree?

You've got a point, but I feel that presenting my opinion is crucial to how a view Shi'a, since people would think I'm some hateful sectarian unless I bring forth my proof.

No one holds such opinions in the heart of a Muslim, Arguing over evidence and such brings us no where except to deception by Shitan. I have also seen some quotes from A reliable source that one who argues too much is full of ignorance. So all I am asking for is how you feel toward Shi'a. I could care less if you think we are muslims or not for only Allah (SWT) determines who is a Muslim and who is not, not Muslims themselves.

My intention was never to argue, but to comply to the following verse:

“Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong; they are the ones to attain felicity."
Quran 03:104

The only reason I did what I did was because I saw something I disagreed with, and felt the need to correct it.

Also, I never declared Shi'as to be non-Muslims.  

[Thou Exalted]

[ Absolut Terror ]

Haydar the Truthful

[ Absolut Terror ]

Haydar the Truthful

I'm starting to think we're getting off the topic here, regardless if we're talking of Shi'a I asked how does everyone VIEW Shi'a, not which Sect is correct.

If your really that dedicated to turning everyone into A Sunni, You could try it elsewhere since I'm not one to argue with.

My belief is mine and yours is yours, Causing arguments constantly causes both of us to be lead astray, do you not agree?

You've got a point, but I feel that presenting my opinion is crucial to how a view Shi'a, since people would think I'm some hateful sectarian unless I bring forth my proof.

No one holds such opinions in the heart of a Muslim, Arguing over evidence and such brings us no where except to deception by Shitan. I have also seen some quotes from A reliable source that one who argues too much is full of ignorance. So all I am asking for is how you feel toward Shi'a. I could care less if you think we are muslims or not for only Allah (SWT) determines who is a Muslim and who is not, not Muslims themselves.

My intention was never to argue, but to comply to the following verse:

“Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong; they are the ones to attain felicity."
Quran 03:104

The only reason I did what I did was because I saw something I disagreed with, and felt the need to correct it.

Also, I never declared Shi'as to be non-Muslims.

Did you not call them "kufrs" though? Not all just most as I've seen you say.

Anyway I suppose I couldn't blame you, as long as we enjoin on what the Qur'an states then we are all muslims, hell I don't even believe some of these Shi'as are muslims either but if they follow everything set in the Qur'an and are faithful in their Lord how can they be anything else but Muslims?  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

What I've said is that there are some things about Shi'ism which constitute kufr [disbelief]. Allah knows which "shi'a" believes in those things and who doesn't.
All I'm saying is, "IF they believe this, then they are committing kufr," not "they are committing kufr." I'm not passing judgment.  

[The Dead Terrorist Achmed]

I personally believe that it will be up to Allah (swt) to determine who is following the true path.

It seems childish to quarrel over who's right on religion. None of us are Allah (swt) and there's no possible way to read His mind and know for sure exactly what He wants.

Everyone thinks they're the only ones that are right and that causes conflict.
And more people are killed over trying to establish self-righteousness.

It's silly and I think that people should just be left alone on their belief systems, regardless of WHAT YOU THINK. In the end...only Allah's (swt) opinion matters.

The way I see it, some of you guys are arguing like a bunch of kids going back and forth, picking out bits of info to snub the other or to justify your stance when all you are looking at is a tiny detail instead of the big picture.

 

[Thou Exalted]

The Dead Terrorist Achmed

I personally believe that it will be up to Allah (swt) to determine who is following the true path.

It seems childish to quarrel over who's right on religion. None of us are Allah (swt) and there's no possible way to read His mind and know for sure exactly what He wants.

Everyone thinks they're the only ones that are right and that causes conflict.
And more people are killed over trying to establish self-righteousness.

It's silly and I think that people should just be left alone on their belief systems, regardless of WHAT YOU THINK. In the end...only Allah's (swt) opinion matters.

The way I see it, some of you guys are arguing like a bunch of kids going back and forth, picking out bits of info to snub the other or to justify your stance when all you are looking at is a tiny detail instead of the big picture.

Did I not mention what you have said here numerous times before? I've been saying that it doesn't matter in what stance your in as long as you believe in Allah (SWT). Now I will agree with the whole fighting thing, thats why I attempted to end it.  

[The Dead Terrorist Achmed]

Haydar the Truthful

The Dead Terrorist Achmed

I personally believe that it will be up to Allah (swt) to determine who is following the true path.

It seems childish to quarrel over who's right on religion. None of us are Allah (swt) and there's no possible way to read His mind and know for sure exactly what He wants.

Everyone thinks they're the only ones that are right and that causes conflict.
And more people are killed over trying to establish self-righteousness.

It's silly and I think that people should just be left alone on their belief systems, regardless of WHAT YOU THINK. In the end...only Allah's (swt) opinion matters.

The way I see it, some of you guys are arguing like a bunch of kids going back and forth, picking out bits of info to snub the other or to justify your stance when all you are looking at is a tiny detail instead of the big picture.

Did I not mention what you have said here numerous times before? I've been saying that it doesn't matter in what stance your in as long as you believe in Allah (SWT). Now I will agree with the whole fighting thing, thats why I attempted to end it.

oh, i didn't read all the way through...I was rather put off by the incessant lashing back and forth. sweatdrop  

[Thou Exalted]

Yeah, Kinda looks like me Defending Shi'ism more than arguing but it ended regardless, Better forgiven than not.