Do "Wiccans" have the right to be called Wiccan?

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Verbeley

Declared - to the government to be list as a religion.

You can declare your religion to the government when they do the census, but that does not make you part of that religion. I could very easily claim to be a Scientologist on the next census, but I would not be considered to be a Scientologist within that community since I haven't been cleared and have not paid the money to learn from them.

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That’s the only difference? (now this is sarcasm, but it’s your fault, I’m really trying not too be sarcastic, I’m really trying)
The problem is you are not talking about teenagers or middle-aged women. If you haven’t noticed that before, try to read it all from the beginning and consider your statement once again. That would be I think fair.

Wait, which way do you want to be treated? Like you're capable of participating in the conversation, or do you need every little thing spelled out for you? First you complain because we spell things out and make it feel like we think you're dumb, but then you go and call out on this?

Of course that's not the only difference.

Fine then, I'll widen my statement: Wicca is not going to warp itself to fit the desires of anyone who wants the title but doesn't know the Mysteries.

I went back and re-read your original post in the thread and I still stand by what I've said before; unless they're initiated they don't have any grounds to use the title of Wiccan. They can be Seekers, or ENPs, but they're not Wiccans. It isn't to say their beliefs are invalid; their beliefs are just as valid as anyone else's (unless they get really crazy with them xd ), but they just simply aren't Wiccan.

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Face it whit what too2sweet wrote, and then tell me who doesn’t understand something, ok?

Alright, I guess we have to go back to spelling out every little thing for you. You're mistaking general reasonable statements for being confused.

THE CORE of the different branches has not changed; they all honor the Lord and Lady of the Isles. They have the same essential ritual structure. Small changes here and there can be made so long as the core is not affected.

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You forgot about Alexa Sandersa and Robert Cochrane. As you see almost from the beginning there were some who claimed also to be the continuators of this same as Gardner traditions,. The term of curse may appeared later, but it’s actually normal, that we first notice something, then call it.

Alex Sanders was properly initiated before he hived off and made his own sect. So yes, he is a slightly varied continuation of Gardner.

Robert Cochrane (Roy Bowers) was not a Wiccan, but a traditional witch; some sources I checked on even said that Cochrane was in a sort of largest occult e-peen contest with Gardner while he was getting Wicca off the ground. So he in no way was carrying on Gardner's traditions.

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Don’t you think there’s actually something wrong in that community? I’m serious now. No word makes a human, but it works both way. (but besides the white goddess –book, had some influence on shape of trad wicca too, as the ’60 cultural revolution wink )

No I don't really. Why does the Wiccan community have to be all puppies, daisies and hugs? I don't understand where people get this idea that the Wiccan community is all warm fuzzies.

It is perfectly understandable for any human being to want to be acknowledged for hard work and dedication in anything they do. And to see someone flaunting the laurels and title of something without having to work for it feels like an insult. Are you proposing that those who have earned their degrees and endured initiation should not feel insulted when someone cops the title willy-nilly?

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how about self-definition (and finding affiliation- but that comes from the first- treat it as an insertion).

See, I think this is funny, seeing as how in the quote above you just said

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No word makes a human

If a word doesn't make a human, then why is self-definition so important?
And what good is self-definition if the person in question does not even agree with the definition of the word? I wouldn't go around calling myself a tree because I don't fit the definition of a tree.

I agree with Sweet; why can't one just introduce themselves in that manner? Why is that so hard? You're still expressing your interest in Wicca without nabbing the title. Everyone's happy blaugh

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plus it’s the only way I see some terms useful and they don’t and should never guarantee you any merits.

The way you see things =|= the way things are.
So should I not be given any merit when I tell people I have earned honors in such-and-such a field? Should I not be given any merit when I officially earn a law degree and can legally and intelligently be a lawyer? I would be taking on titles for those deeds, neither of which are easily accomplished.

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This is not only problem of pagans, it appears in every where, referring to your former post, even in medical environment. But the only way to deal with it is coming out to people, educating and explaining. Not yelling, offending and umbraging.

Some of use ARE trying to educate and inform others on what Wicca is and what it isn't. As I explained to you via PM, it does get frustrating when you have to explain for the billionth time what Wicca is, and no, your beliefs, while valid, are not Wicca.

I'll ask again here since you did not address it in my last post: Is there something about orthopraxy in Wicca that you do not understand?

As for you first post in this thread, on the group that was initiated in, I too would've liked to have seen a written piece on it as well, but it's understandable that you can't give one. What that coven did for that group was admirable for sure. But, that doesn't change the fact that before they were initiated, the group was comprised of Seekers and/or ENPs.  

[Verbeley]

too2sweet

I really sometimes wish Gaia had voice chat - it's so hard to tell people's tone when writing (without emoting every single senence)

Me too biggrin

too2sweet

The ritual structures are part of the core material that I mentioned. Those will be the same with little or no variation no matter what. As I said, the covens can add to the "core", but they cannot take away from it. Even then, only certain things have been allowed to be added. There comes a point if too many changes are made that even if you were originally a Trad coven, you are no longer able to claim to be Wiccan, since what you are practicing no longer meets the required elements.

First- I know, and I don’t think I claimed it can be taken out. Second- now wicca is young, and let’s say you are able to find those differences (which I think isn’t that simple), but let it be twice that old, or more, do you think then it will be able to say which are nearer and which
added “too much”? This is the thing about tradition- it constantly changes.

too2sweet

She was specifically talking about the "belief" structure - Orthopraxic vs. Orthodoxy. Obviously there are many other differences between the two.

I guess, but it was funny argument to read anyway smile

too2sweet

I think you are talking about Alex Sanders. He has claim to the Wiccan title through initiation into proper lineaged Wiccan covens. He later formed his own Tradition, but because the Alexandrian covens still maintain the core Gardnerian practices (they have only added to the core), they can still legitimately claim to be Wiccan. There are several valid "approved" lineaged Wiccan traditions besides Gardnerian and Alexandrian, they all can trace their lines back to Gardner though.

Sorry for mistake, wanted to write Alexander, but changed my mind smile
Anyway the problem with Alex was that he claimed to be wiccan before he was initiated, which actually happened kinda back door… So you have- the first “wicca-wanabe” as UltraViolett.

too2sweet

Robert Cochrane was simply a witch, and had nothing to do with Wicca or Gardner that I know of. His practices were more along the lines of traditional witchcraft. The only connection I can see is that Doreen Valiente was a member of his coven for a while, but that doesn't mean that it was a Wiccan coven. Everything I've seen links him only to witchcraft.

He’s bit a separated story, he claimed to know the elder or as old as Gardner tradition, yes he is connected rather with witchcraft, but it’s because he was not part of Gardner party, and in that times wicca was just little more than witchcraft (which of course all the “too proud to be” wiccans don’t want to accept).

too2sweet

No one is forcing anyone to join the community, it is up to individual choice if they want to seek proper training and in seeking proper training they are agreeing to the "rules" of the community. In the religion of Wicca, you cannot claim the "title" until you have been initiated - that is one of the requirements of the religion. If there are people who think that is a silly requirement, then maybe Wicca is not for them. Wicca is a religion of priests and priestesses. It takes time and dedication to be properly trained for this "position". Like any job that requires a high degree of skilled work, you can't just read about it - you have to experience certain things in order to understand completely what it is all about.

Note that I was not talking about the whole wiccan community, not even about the whole trad community, just about the little one she came across with.

Second- you know how many time it took to “get” the last initiation in the Gardner’s times? Not even a three years, so please put those “you have to be proper trained” into fairytales. It was all made by the jealous people, who couldn’t stand one can be better than they are, unfortunate, but true. sad

Now a bit of surprise- the higher education is just a illusion. I know people who are amours in my job, but they love it so much and volunteered many time into different projects and are as good as people with papers, further more I know people from the voluntary medical service how are better that some doctors and nurses. As I said no degree makes a human.

too2sweet

People self-define themselves all the time... "Hi, I'm Brandi. I'm a Eclectic Witch with an interest in Wicca." ...see it's not so hard. I still got to use the word Wicca, but I also let everyone know that I'm not initiated yet.

And do you use it everyday life? It’s like with names you can have three or two but you don’t introduce yourself : “Hi I‘m Annette Angelique Marlene Johnson” But you say you’re Annette Johnson. And sure all of the names definite you, but it’s uncomfortable and unpractical. (more about that under) (besides we are talking about case, I wasn't initiated, cause there's no possibility, just btw)

Ultraviolett1127

You can declare your religion to the government when they do the census, but that does not make you part of that religion. I could very easily claim to be a Scientologist on the next census, but I would not be considered to be a Scientologist within that community since I haven't been cleared and have not paid the money to learn from them.

No, no I mean, the leaders of religion has to declare the religion statement to the government. (You declare your personal religion to government? Wow and weird)

Ultraviolett1127

Wait, which way do you want to be treated? Like you're capable of participating in the conversation, or do you need every little thing spelled out for you? First you complain because we spell things out and make it feel like we think you're dumb, but then you go and call out on this?

Of course that's not the only difference.

I did not complained, dear.
Second- my simple question- do you know what sarcasm is? (cause I’ve doubts about that)

Ultraviolett1127

Fine then, I'll widen my statement: Wicca is not going to warp itself to fit the desires of anyone who wants the title but doesn't know the Mysteries.

I went back and re-read your original post in the thread and I still stand by what I've said before; unless they're initiated they don't have any grounds to use the title of Wiccan. They can be Seekers, or ENPs, but they're not Wiccans. It isn't to say their beliefs are invalid; their beliefs are just as valid as anyone else's (unless they get really crazy with them ), but they just simply aren't Wiccan.

I would ask why, but I know you’ll came with same ole song and it’s becoming boring, so let’s pause that of your speech.

Ultraviolett1127

Alright, I guess we have to go back to spelling out every little thing for you. You're mistaking general reasonable statements for being confused.

THE CORE of the different branches has not changed; they all honor the Lord and Lady of the Isles. They have the same essential ritual structure. Small changes here and there can be made so long as the core is not affected.

No I think it’s you who don’t get my point- I encourage to read what’s above also, maybe will help.

Ultraviolett1127

Alex Sanders was properly initiated before he hived off and made his own sect. So yes, he is a slightly varied continuation of Gardner.

Robert Cochrane (Roy Bowers) was not a Wiccan, but a traditional witch; some sources I checked on even said that Cochrane was in a sort of largest occult e-peen contest with Gardner while he was getting Wicca off the ground. So he in no way was carrying on Gardner's traditions.

Check it up in what I wrote to Sweet, maybe that will clear your mind.

Ultraviolett1127

No I don't really. Why does the Wiccan community have to be all puppies, daisies and hugs? I don't understand where people get this idea that the Wiccan community is all warm fuzzies.

It is perfectly understandable for any human being to want to be acknowledged for hard work and dedication in anything they do. And to see someone flaunting the laurels and title of something without having to work for it feels like an insult. Are you proposing that those who have earned their degrees and endured initiation should not feel insulted when someone cops the title willy-nilly?

No they don’t have to, but being wolve one to other is much worse, it takes from your humanity. (I’ll cut the rest of comment, cause it would be insulting those people and as they have no way to defense it would be unfair.)

Ultraviolett1127

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how about self-definition (and finding affiliation- but that comes from the first- treat it as an insertion).

See, I think this is funny, seeing as how in the quote above you just said
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No word makes a human

If a word doesn't make a human, then why is self-definition so important?
And what good is self-definition if the person in question does not even agree with the definition of the word? I wouldn't go around calling myself a tree because I don't fit the definition of a tree.

I agree with Sweet; why can't one just introduce themselves in that manner? Why is that so hard? You're still expressing your interest in Wicca without nabbing the title. Everyone's happy

The way you see things =|= the way things are.
So should I not be given any merit when I tell people I have earned honors in such-and-such a field? Should I not be given any merit when I officially earn a law degree and can legally and intelligently be a lawyer? I would be taking on titles for those deeds, neither of which are easily accomplished.

First I didn’t get you point, but it seems you didn’t got mine.

Dear, self- definition is not the way you introduce yourself, it’s for you. Unless you live for expose, but then you just won’t get it anyway.

Second, when I said the words has no weight (not no importance) I mean they do not actually say who you really are. The fact your surname is Picasso does not make you and artist. (Is my metaphor clear to you now?)

And no, the fact you have a paper calling you lawyer should never give you any merit. You can be proud of yourself that you got that degree, but it doesn’t make you any special.
Cause that’s snob.

An third this whole discussion is about the what is in the manner!

Ultraviolett1127

Some of use ARE trying to educate and inform others on what Wicca is and what it isn't. As I explained to you via PM, it does get frustrating when you have to explain for the billionth time what Wicca is, and no, your beliefs, while valid, are not Wicca.

Billionth times you are saying this same thing, like you are simply unable to give some new argument.

Ultraviolett1127

I'll ask again here since you did not address it in my last post: Is there something about orthopraxy in Wicca that you do not understand?

Once again I’ll answer I understand it all. But now I’ll ask.
Is orthopraxy the only that makes wicca? (and try to considerate for real)

Ultraviolett1127

As for you first post in this thread, on the group that was initiated in, I too would've liked to have seen a written piece on it as well, but it's understandable that you can't give one. What that coven did for that group was admirable for sure. But, that doesn't change the fact that before they were initiated, the group was comprised of Seekers and/or ENPs.

You’re right I can’t tell you any thing more. Now I’m under the oath and I’m not allowed to say anything about people who told me that, as well as give you any references, even if it wouldn’t b against those people will.

I don’t know if that was admirable, they were just a human beings understanding other human beings, not a bunch of snobs.

Mea  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Verbeley

First- I know, and I don’t think I claimed it can be taken out. Second- now wicca is young, and let’s say you are able to find those differences (which I think isn’t that simple), but let it be twice that old, or more, do you think then it will be able to say which are nearer and which
added “too much”? This is the thing about tradition- it constantly changes.

No, tradition does not constantly change. That's what makes it tradition. Take the tradition of having a christmas tree. Nowadays, you can have different coloured trees. You can have them real or plastic or whatever. You can choose what decorations you have and where you put them. But the tradition - having a christmas tree - is the same.

Traditions endure. You can modify the trappings if the tradition allows you to do that (some do not), but the core of the tradition remains the same. That's what makes it a tradition rather than just crap you make up on the spot.

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He’s bit a separated story, he claimed to know the elder or as old as Gardner tradition, yes he is connected rather with witchcraft, but it’s because he was not part of Gardner party, and in that times wicca was just little more than witchcraft (which of course all the “too proud to be” wiccans don’t want to accept).

Wicca is not witchcraft, it is a religion. It was formed as a religion, in comparison to traditional witchcraft which is not. Wicca has more Ceremonial magic in it than "witchcraft" in the strict sense, anyway.

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Second- you know how many time it took to “get” the last initiation in the Gardner’s times? Not even a three years, so please put those “you have to be proper trained” into fairytales. It was all made by the jealous people, who couldn’t stand one can be better than they are, unfortunate, but true. sad

Regardless of how long some of these people trained before being initiated... they are initiated, and thus know what Wicca is and what one needs to know and understand to be Wiccan. It's got nothing to do with jealousy.

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Now a bit of surprise- the higher education is just a illusion. I know people who are amours in my job, but they love it so much and volunteered many time into different projects and are as good as people with papers, further more I know people from the voluntary medical service how are better that some doctors and nurses. As I said no degree makes a human.

I don't know where you're getting this idea that Wiccans are somehow better than the non-initiated. They're not. They're not better people and they're not necessarily better witches. We're not implying they are. What they are is Wiccan. You can study medicine all you like but if you don't pass those exams and get your MD you are not a doctor and cannot legally practise medicine.

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And do you use it everyday life? It’s like with names you can have three or two but you don’t introduce yourself : “Hi I‘m Annette Angelique Marlene Johnson” But you say you’re Annette Johnson. And sure all of the names definite you, but it’s uncomfortable and unpractical. (more about that under) (besides we are talking about case, I wasn't initiated, cause there's no possibility, just btw)

Using the term "Wicca" as a short-cut because you can't be bothered correctly describing your faith is dishonest. You're misrepresenting both Wicca and your own faith by doing so. This isn't like saying "I'm Annette Johnson". Why? Because if you leave out your middle names, you're still giving someone your name. You're still telling the truth and you're not claiming to be anything you're not.

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No, no I mean, the leaders of religion has to declare the religion statement to the government. (You declare your personal religion to government? Wow and weird)

There aren't any leaders in Wicca. Writing your religion on your census returns isn't unusual, we do the same here.

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Dear, self- definition is not the way you introduce yourself, it’s for you. Unless you live for expose, but then you just won’t get it anyway.

Self-definition is a term commonly used to mean "how we define ourselves". It's no great leap to suggest that you might define yourself to others. That is certainly within self-definition.
And Vi is not your dear.

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Second, when I said the words has no weight (not no importance) I mean they do not actually say who you really are. The fact your surname is Picasso does not make you and artist. (Is my metaphor clear to you now?)

The metaphor is clear. The problem is that there's a gaping hoel in your argument.
If your surname is Picasso, that doesn't make you an artist. What it makes you is a Picasso.

If you are of the Wica, yes, that is but one facet of your personality, of who you are. There are plenty of other elements of yourself and frankly, if all you are is your faith, there's something wrong there. The same applies to people of EVERY faith.

But the labels we use are still important. If you call yourself a goth without knowing Bauhaus from Britney, actual goths are going to get ******** off with you. You would be wrongly applying the name of their subculture to yourself. Likewise, a Wiccan would likely place value on that term and get annoyed to see it misapplied.

The word may not be important to you, but it has importance to those to whom it actually refers. Would it kill people to respect that?

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And no, the fact you have a paper calling you lawyer should never give you any merit. You can be proud of yourself that you got that degree, but it doesn’t make you any special.
Cause that’s snob.

No one said anything about "special". If you have a piece of paper saying you are a lawyer, do you know what that makes you? It makes you a lawyer.
Lawyers aren't more special than non-lawyers. They are LAWYERS.

You seem to be under the impression that Wiccans are saying they are better than you. They are not. You are inferring some sort of elitism that doesn't actually exist. All they're pissed about is you using the name of their religion in the wrong way.

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Billionth times you are saying this same thing, like you are simply unable to give some new argument.

If you listened the first time we said it, we wouldn't have had to say it 999,999,999 more times.
Don't make it one billion and one.

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Once again I’ll answer I understand it all. But now I’ll ask.
Is orthopraxy the only that makes wicca? (and try to considerate for real)

You don't seem to be grasping the importance of the implication of the term "orthopraxy", so I shall explain it to you.
If a religion is orthopraxic, it means it is defined by how it is practised. Orthopraxic, as has been mentioned before, means "correct action", while orthodoxy means "correct belief".

What this means is that it's less important in Wicca what you actually believe; the important thing is what you do. In this case, the important aspect is the rituals you perform.

The rituals in Wicca are oath-bound. You cannot know how to perform them unless you have been initiated into a lineaged coven. Wicca is an experiential mystery religion - this means you aren't taught many of the core concepts and tenets of Wicca, you experience them through ritual. This is one of the main reasons so much is oath bound: if you don't know the material, you won't be able to form any pre-conceived notions about it.

These rituals are therefore incredibly important to the practice of Wicca. You cannot understand Wicca without these rituals. That is what is meant by orthopraxic, and that is why we are putting so much stress on that fact. It's not so much the fact that Wicca is orthopraxic that you should be getting from this, it's what that implies.

There are other things that Wicca is:
- Wicca is ditheistic to specific deities, whose names are oath-bound
- Wicca is a witch-cult
- Wicca is cross-gender initiatory
- Wicca is an experiential mystery religion
- Wicca is focused on fertility rather than just nature
- Wicca is comprised entirely of clergy

Orthopraxy also implies that if you are initiated into Wicca, but you leave and no longer practise ritual in the correct way, you are no longer practising Wicca.  

[too2sweet]

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This is the thing about tradition- it constantly changes.

No...traditions stay the same. That is what make them "traditional". If you start making too many changes, then you are starting a completely new tradition. It may be based on the old one, but it is no longer the same.

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Anyway the problem with Alex was that he claimed to be wiccan before he was initiated

He claimed he was an initiated witch, not wiccan. It's not the same thing.

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Second- you know how many time it took to “get” the last initiation in the Gardner’s times? Not even a three years, so please put those “you have to be proper trained” into fairytales

A minimum of a year and a day is what is quoted, but if you ask around you will find that most people only get their first initiation in this time frame. If they pursue their other degrees, it usually takes a lot longer. They call them "elders" for a reason, most don't get their higher degrees until many years have passed. In the beginning the only reason that one would seek a higher degree is if they planned to hive off the coven. I think the only ones you will find getting their HPS in 3 years are the wanna-be Wiccans. In Wicca, the degree system is important. If you have chosen to be a part of that community, then you have agreed to the meanings and significance of those degrees. If you don't want to be bound by them, then choose another path. It is as simple as that. I am 10 times more qualified than most of my managers at work, and am always having to fix everyone else's mistakes and never get any credit for it. Does it bother me...sure, but that's life. Other than being mildly annoyed, I really don't' care. I know my job is secure, since they know they can't live without me. That works well enough for me.

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And no, the fact you have a paper calling you lawyer should never give you any merit. You can be proud of yourself that you got that degree, but it doesn’t make you any special.

Actually, if your law degree comes from an accredited university/college, then yes it does make you special. It gives you the right to sit for your local bar exams and if you pass that, then it gives you the right to be a practicing lawyer.

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Is orthopraxy the only that makes wicca?

no, it is one of the things...we've said that. But it is an important thing, because it defines how/why just reading a book won't make you Wiccan.

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Billionth times you are saying this same thing, like you are simply unable to give some new argument.

Because what we are saying is the way it is...there is nothing else to say about it. We've tried to explain it as carefully as we can, but there isn't any other way to put it.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Verbeley

No, no I mean, the leaders of religion has to declare the religion statement to the government. (You declare your personal religion to government? Wow and weird)

Not really weird; it lets the government know who's practicing what for statistical purposes.
And as San-chan already says, Wicca has no official learders at the top of a hierarchy; there is NO ONE to formally declare Wicca to the government

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Second- my simple question- do you know what sarcasm is? (cause I’ve doubts about that)

What? Sarcasm? I totally have no clue what that is.
wink

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No I think it’s you who don’t get my point- I encourage to read what’s above also, maybe will help.

Which above point? You have quite a few of them.

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Check it up in what I wrote to Sweet, maybe that will clear your mind.

No, Wiccans acknowledge that Gardner used Wicca and witchcraft interchangeably; none of them are so proud that they deny the history and development of their religion.

I agree with San-chan. It feels like you're thinking that we're saying that lineaged Wiccans are better than everyone else. That's NOT what we're saying.

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Dear, self- definition is not the way you introduce yourself, it’s for you. Unless you live for expose, but then you just won’t get it anyway.

Second, when I said the words has no weight (not no importance) I mean they do not actually say who you really are. The fact your surname is Picasso does not make you and artist. (Is my metaphor clear to you now?)

And no, the fact you have a paper calling you lawyer should never give you any merit. You can be proud of yourself that you got that degree, but it doesn’t make you any special.
Cause that’s snob.

An third this whole discussion is about the what is in the manner!

Yea...please stop calling me pet names; I just met you. Terms of endearment are reserved for those I've known for a while. It's nothing personal against you.

Regardless of whether self-definition is for you or everyone else, it still doesn't do anyone any good if they are using a word that they do not fit. I wouldn't self-define as a man, or any of the things I am NOT just to give myself pats on the back.

If words don't actually say who you are, then why self-define? What good is using words to self-define if they don't even fully or accurately define you?

I know quite a few people who would disagree and say that yes, having a piece of paper (a very ******** expensive piece of paper I might add) does give them merit. In discussions on legal matters, their opinions and thoughts mean more than someone who's only watched a few crime shows. In the realm of legal matters, it sets them apart from those who have not earned their degree. There's nothing snobby about it. It doesn't mean that those who haven't earned their law degree are completely unintelligent peoples, it just means that they aren't lawyers and aren't treated as such.

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Billionth times you are saying this same thing, like you are simply unable to give some new argument.

And you know what? Until you get it, I'll keep repeating it. I repeat it because it's correct. Trust me, I get sick of typing it and hoping each time you see it you'll understand it. I'm really hoping that at this point it's a language barrier and that you're not just plugging your ears going "LALALA i kant heer u!!!!"

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Once again I’ll answer I understand it all. But now I’ll ask.
Is orthopraxy the only that makes wicca? (and try to considerate for real)

No, orthopraxy is not the only thing that makes Wicca, but it is a major structure in the religion and helps to give a context to understanding how the religion works.

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You’re right I can’t tell you any thing more. Now I’m under the oath and I’m not allowed to say anything about people who told me that, as well as give you any references, even if it wouldn’t b against those people will.

I don’t know if that was admirable, they were just a human beings understanding other human beings, not a bunch of snobs.

Was this supposed to be some sort of funny cop-out? It's not really funny, and the sarcasm is completely lost on it. But it's okay; seeing as how you've already relayed the story to us and given as many specifics as you can, you are, by your own logic, an oath-breaker. Congratulations, you've lost the game biggrin

What the coven did for that group was admirable. No denying that. Other Wiccan covens who may pick and choose who they initiate are not being snobs; they are trying to determine if someone is a proper person for their coven so that the chemistry of the coven isn't thrown off by someone who isn't fitting in well with the others. It's not snobby to want to maintain peace among those who are already there. A five-star restaurant wouldn't let in rabble-rousers because they would disturb the atmosphere that exists there already.  

[too2sweet]

Quote:

Other Wiccan covens who may pick and choose who they initiate are not being snobs; they are trying to determine if someone is a proper person for their coven so that the chemistry of the coven isn't thrown off by someone who isn't fitting in well with the others. It's not snobby to want to maintain peace among those who are already there.

Vi brings up a good point. A coven is a very carefully constructed entity (for lack of a better word). In order for everything to run smoothly, to be able to properly build energy, to do path-workings, etc...you have to have perfect love and perfect trust. That's not just a saying, it is the absolute truth. If there is even one member who feels just the slightest bit uncomfortable with anyone else, then it can all fall apart. This is why covens are so picky - it is the difference between having a perfectly working coven and a disaster.  

[BlackenedxHeartx]

doistu

My contribution...though small unlike the others...might be of some use smile .

Wicca I believe is a valid religion but Neo-wicca isn't Wicca...If it was we wouldn't need the neo bit would we?

Personally, to avoid such subjects like this coming up when I'm invovled, I simply say I'm a witch who follows wiccan principles.

agreed.  

[WitchyBoy]

i think so i mean after all if you truly believe in the religion should you not be aloud to call yourself as such?  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

WitchyBoy

i think so i mean after all if you truly believe in the religion should you not be aloud to call yourself as such?

Well yes, but some people think they believe in the religion but actually don't. I don't mean that their faith is in question - it's not - but the set of beliefs and practices that they have been told constitute Wicca do not actually constitute Wicca.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

WitchyBoy

i think so i mean after all if you truly believe in the religion should you not be aloud to call yourself as such?

But if you don't really know the practices of the religion, how can you really say you're following it, and by extension, how can you call yourself a follower of that religion?
If someone has their own path that works for them, then that's great and I'm glad for them. However, that path is most likely not Wicca and they should not be calling it Wicca or themselves Wiccan.
It has nothing to do with being mean. It has to do with being honest about what you're really practicing.  

[WitchyBoy]

well i know what i believe and follow is wicca because ive done the research and much reading by many authors but have not been recognized as wiccan be any other wiccans simply due to the fact that there arent many others in the area, but i know that what i practice is wicca.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

WitchyBoy

well i know what i believe and follow is wicca

Really? What of your beliefs do you think are Wiccan?
Here, let me ask you a simple question: Are you a clergy of the Lord and Lady of the Isles?
No?
Then you're not Wiccan. Full stop. End of story. Wicca is solely clergy; there is no laity in Wicca.

Quote:

because ive done the research and much reading by many authors

Tip: Wicca is experiential and can not be learned in books. It is also oath-bound and also not available in books for non-initiates to know. You can go about reading every book and website with "Wicca" as the keyword in it, but that does not make you Wiccan. Being initiated into a lineaged coven and practicing in the correct ritual structure makes you Wiccan.
Also, since you've said you've read extensively, I'm amused and a bit confused that you give the impression of not reading anything by Gerald Gardner.

Quote:

but have not been recognized as wiccan be any other wiccans simply due to the fact that there arent many others in the area, but i know that what i practice is wicca.

Again, if you do not know the oath-bound materials (i.e., the correct ritual strcuture, the names of the Lord and Lady of the Isles, etc...) on what basis do you take the title of Wiccan? The reason you're not recognized as a Wiccan is because you're really not a Wiccan neutral
What you believe in has very little to do with Wicca, as it is orthopraxic (based on correct practice) and not orthodoxic (based on correct belief).
I am not saying your beliefs are invalid or wrong; if it works for you then that is great and fine and I"m happy you have something that works for you. I am saying that the word you are using to describe your beliefs is incorrect though.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

WitchyBoy

well i know what i believe and follow is wicca because ive done the research and much reading by many authors but have not been recognized as wiccan be any other wiccans simply due to the fact that there arent many others in the area, but i know that what i practice is wicca.

If you haven't been recognised as a Wiccan by a lineaged Wiccan, then there's no way you can be a Wiccan. Simple as that. Wicca is an initiatory religion. Everything else aside, you must be initiated into it by another lineaged Wiccan. So you have to have
a) met such a Wiccan,
b) been recognised as a Wiccan by others
and in fact
c) have had that Wiccan tell you explicitly, in or after initiation, that you are a Wiccan.

It's not a religion where you decide for yourself if you are or you aren't.  

[RubyLight]

I disagree. Especially, due to the fact that contact with fellow Wiccans, never mind a coven you're actually interested in is incredibly difficult.
I believe that through a great amount of studying and discretion a person can become a Wiccan if they accept the universal beliefs of the religion. I don't consider such people as "Traditionalists" by any means, however I believe that their ecclectic paths should be respected as valid.

I can understand why you would not consider a booklearner Wiccan, especially with authors such as RavenWolf out there. However, if an individual is truely inspired by the Lord and Lady and decide the incredibly difficult task of self-teaching (along with help from the Gods of course. biggrin ), I don't see why they should be denied the right to be recognized as a Wiccan by the rest of the community.