Semi-auto

[OberFeldwebel]

Fresnel

Barru

Fresnel

What about a rifle round in the 10-11mm range? Something with a similar bullet to a .40, 10mm, or .45 bullet, but a long, perhaps bottleneck cartridge. Maybe .458 SOCOM or even .50 Beo? How do those stack up?

45-70?
... 45-140
O.O


No idea. But I think a straight cartridge would be easy on reloading.
Then perhaps releasing a bottleneck as well.
That way they can use either bullets to reload.

Bottleneck bullets generally get better performance because they have a solid surface to gas seal against. Rimmed and semi-rimmed cartridges use the rim, bottlenecks use the taper, and straight-walled cartridges use the leading edge of the cartridge. VERY finicky. Rimmed rounds, though they get the best gas seal, have the disadvantage of not stacking well in a magazine. Overall a bottleneck round gets more consistent pressure with looser tolerances.

Also, .45-70 is a dying round. Wikipedia says that at one time, it disappeared, and Marlin filled the gap with the .444 Marlin, a semi-rimmed, straight-walled round. Maybe that might be an acceptable round?

Quote:

The Marlin can push a 240 grain bullet at velocities over 2,400 ft/s (730 m/s) generating 3,070 ft·lbf of energy (730 m/s and 4,160 J) making it well suited for all large game. SAAMI has rated this cartridge at 44,000 CUP.

Unfortunately...

Quote:

It functions most efficiently when used with cast lead bullets.

Cast-lead will quickly ******** up a gas-recoil system, as proven by everyone's favorite DEAGLE.

What about a blowback system?

It would absorb some of the recoil.  

[Fresnel]

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

Barru

Fresnel

What about a rifle round in the 10-11mm range? Something with a similar bullet to a .40, 10mm, or .45 bullet, but a long, perhaps bottleneck cartridge. Maybe .458 SOCOM or even .50 Beo? How do those stack up?

45-70?
... 45-140
O.O


No idea. But I think a straight cartridge would be easy on reloading.
Then perhaps releasing a bottleneck as well.
That way they can use either bullets to reload.

Bottleneck bullets generally get better performance because they have a solid surface to gas seal against. Rimmed and semi-rimmed cartridges use the rim, bottlenecks use the taper, and straight-walled cartridges use the leading edge of the cartridge. VERY finicky. Rimmed rounds, though they get the best gas seal, have the disadvantage of not stacking well in a magazine. Overall a bottleneck round gets more consistent pressure with looser tolerances.

Also, .45-70 is a dying round. Wikipedia says that at one time, it disappeared, and Marlin filled the gap with the .444 Marlin, a semi-rimmed, straight-walled round. Maybe that might be an acceptable round?

Quote:

The Marlin can push a 240 grain bullet at velocities over 2,400 ft/s (730 m/s) generating 3,070 ft·lbf of energy (730 m/s and 4,160 J) making it well suited for all large game. SAAMI has rated this cartridge at 44,000 CUP.

Unfortunately...

Quote:

It functions most efficiently when used with cast lead bullets.

Cast-lead will quickly ******** up a gas-recoil system, as proven by everyone's favorite DEAGLE.

What about a blowback system?

It would absorb some of the recoil.

I cannot remember ever hearing about a rifle, designed as a rifle, that works by blowback. There must be a reason for that.  

[OberFeldwebel]

Fresnel

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

Barru

Fresnel

What about a rifle round in the 10-11mm range? Something with a similar bullet to a .40, 10mm, or .45 bullet, but a long, perhaps bottleneck cartridge. Maybe .458 SOCOM or even .50 Beo? How do those stack up?

45-70?
... 45-140
O.O


No idea. But I think a straight cartridge would be easy on reloading.
Then perhaps releasing a bottleneck as well.
That way they can use either bullets to reload.

Bottleneck bullets generally get better performance because they have a solid surface to gas seal against. Rimmed and semi-rimmed cartridges use the rim, bottlenecks use the taper, and straight-walled cartridges use the leading edge of the cartridge. VERY finicky. Rimmed rounds, though they get the best gas seal, have the disadvantage of not stacking well in a magazine. Overall a bottleneck round gets more consistent pressure with looser tolerances.

Also, .45-70 is a dying round. Wikipedia says that at one time, it disappeared, and Marlin filled the gap with the .444 Marlin, a semi-rimmed, straight-walled round. Maybe that might be an acceptable round?

Quote:

The Marlin can push a 240 grain bullet at velocities over 2,400 ft/s (730 m/s) generating 3,070 ft·lbf of energy (730 m/s and 4,160 J) making it well suited for all large game. SAAMI has rated this cartridge at 44,000 CUP.

Unfortunately...

Quote:

It functions most efficiently when used with cast lead bullets.

Cast-lead will quickly ******** up a gas-recoil system, as proven by everyone's favorite DEAGLE.

What about a blowback system?

It would absorb some of the recoil.

I cannot remember ever hearing about a rifle, designed as a rifle, that works by blowback. There must be a reason for that.

Yeah, there probably is.  

[Fresnel]

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

Barru

45-70?
... 45-140
O.O


No idea. But I think a straight cartridge would be easy on reloading.
Then perhaps releasing a bottleneck as well.
That way they can use either bullets to reload.

Bottleneck bullets generally get better performance because they have a solid surface to gas seal against. Rimmed and semi-rimmed cartridges use the rim, bottlenecks use the taper, and straight-walled cartridges use the leading edge of the cartridge. VERY finicky. Rimmed rounds, though they get the best gas seal, have the disadvantage of not stacking well in a magazine. Overall a bottleneck round gets more consistent pressure with looser tolerances.

Also, .45-70 is a dying round. Wikipedia says that at one time, it disappeared, and Marlin filled the gap with the .444 Marlin, a semi-rimmed, straight-walled round. Maybe that might be an acceptable round?

Quote:

The Marlin can push a 240 grain bullet at velocities over 2,400 ft/s (730 m/s) generating 3,070 ft·lbf of energy (730 m/s and 4,160 J) making it well suited for all large game. SAAMI has rated this cartridge at 44,000 CUP.

Unfortunately...

Quote:

It functions most efficiently when used with cast lead bullets.

Cast-lead will quickly ******** up a gas-recoil system, as proven by everyone's favorite DEAGLE.

What about a blowback system?

It would absorb some of the recoil.

I cannot remember ever hearing about a rifle, designed as a rifle, that works by blowback. There must be a reason for that.

Yeah, there probably is.

Should we consider external power sources? Hydraulic, pneumatic, electric?  

[OberFeldwebel]

Fresnel

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

Bottleneck bullets generally get better performance because they have a solid surface to gas seal against. Rimmed and semi-rimmed cartridges use the rim, bottlenecks use the taper, and straight-walled cartridges use the leading edge of the cartridge. VERY finicky. Rimmed rounds, though they get the best gas seal, have the disadvantage of not stacking well in a magazine. Overall a bottleneck round gets more consistent pressure with looser tolerances.

Also, .45-70 is a dying round. Wikipedia says that at one time, it disappeared, and Marlin filled the gap with the .444 Marlin, a semi-rimmed, straight-walled round. Maybe that might be an acceptable round?

Unfortunately... Cast-lead will quickly ******** up a gas-recoil system, as proven by everyone's favorite DEAGLE.

What about a blowback system?

It would absorb some of the recoil.

I cannot remember ever hearing about a rifle, designed as a rifle, that works by blowback. There must be a reason for that.

Yeah, there probably is.

Should we consider external power sources? Hydraulic, pneumatic, electric?

A rifle that you have to plug in?
Now that's interesting.

Hmm...
So a rifle that uses pneumatics or hydraulics to absorb recoil and cycle a round? Or did you mean to just absorb recoil?  

[Fresnel]

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

Bottleneck bullets generally get better performance because they have a solid surface to gas seal against. Rimmed and semi-rimmed cartridges use the rim, bottlenecks use the taper, and straight-walled cartridges use the leading edge of the cartridge. VERY finicky. Rimmed rounds, though they get the best gas seal, have the disadvantage of not stacking well in a magazine. Overall a bottleneck round gets more consistent pressure with looser tolerances.

Also, .45-70 is a dying round. Wikipedia says that at one time, it disappeared, and Marlin filled the gap with the .444 Marlin, a semi-rimmed, straight-walled round. Maybe that might be an acceptable round?

Unfortunately... Cast-lead will quickly ******** up a gas-recoil system, as proven by everyone's favorite DEAGLE.

What about a blowback system?

It would absorb some of the recoil.

I cannot remember ever hearing about a rifle, designed as a rifle, that works by blowback. There must be a reason for that.

Yeah, there probably is.

Should we consider external power sources? Hydraulic, pneumatic, electric?

A rifle that you have to plug in?
Now that's interesting.

Hmm...
So a rifle that uses pneumatics or hydraulics to absorb recoil and cycle a round? Or did you mean to just absorb recoil?

I mean to power the action. A pneumatic or hydraulic drive system would be an interesting concept. Electric would be nice if there was something lighter and less hazardous than lead-acid batteries that we could apply.

I've heard pneumatic shock absorbers (On shotguns in particular) are pretty useless, but they sound HILARIOUS. Every time you shoot, there's a gurgling sound.  

[Stoic Socialist]

Fresnel

I cannot remember ever hearing about a rifle, designed as a rifle, that works by blowback. There must be a reason for that.

Pure blowback, maybe not, but there's plenty of delayed blowback design for rifles. The G3 uses a delayed-blowback action, the SG-510 had a roller-delayed action, the FAMAS uses a lever-delayed blowback, and the Pedersen rifle uses a toggle-delayed blowback.

I think some sort of recoil operation would work better than gas-operated in this specific instance, though. There wouldn't be the gas system to clog for firing the lead cast bullets. Something like Benelli's Inertia operating system could probably work for this, too. Might as well use the recoil for something productive, no?

As per the comment earlier about the the rifle round in 10-11mm range, there's plenty of rimless African cartridges in that range, such as the .404 Jeffery.
Gas-operated mini-gun in .416 Rigby, anyone?
Why couldn't we use a rotary magazine such as a Ruger 10/22, though? The Johnson Rifle used an internal rotary magazine, which I'd assume could be used with a stripper clip. It was originally used for the .30-06... But no one said it couldn't used for a wildcat .30-06 pushing a .40 sized bullet.
Eh?

EDIT: I almost forgot, here's a link to a company who manufactures rifles up to .505 Gibbs.  

[Fresnel]

Stoic Socialist

Fresnel

I cannot remember ever hearing about a rifle, designed as a rifle, that works by blowback. There must be a reason for that.

Pure blowback, maybe not, but there's plenty of delayed blowback design for rifles. The G3 uses a delayed-blowback action, the SG-510 had a roller-delayed action, the FAMAS uses a lever-delayed blowback, and the Pedersen rifle uses a toggle-delayed blowback.

I think some sort of recoil operation would work better than gas-operated in this specific instance, though. There wouldn't be the gas system to clog for firing the lead cast bullets. Something like Benelli's Inertia operating system could probably work for this, too. Might as well use the recoil for something productive, no?

As per the comment earlier about the the rifle round in 10-11mm range, there's plenty of rimless African cartridges in that range, such as the .404 Jeffery.
Gas-operated mini-gun in .416 Rigby, anyone?
Why couldn't we use a rotary magazine such as a Ruger 10/22, though? The Johnson Rifle used an internal rotary magazine, which I'd assume could be used with a stripper clip. It was originally used for the .30-06... But no one said it couldn't used for a wildcat .30-06 pushing a .40 sized bullet.
Eh?

EDIT: I almost forgot, here's a link to a company who manufactures rifles up to .505 Gibbs.

I will admit, using recoil to drive the action does mean there's that much less to hit you in the shoulder, and that's never a bad thing.

Have you PRICED African rifle rounds recently? Not only are they rare, but even the more common ones like the .470 Nitro are still $30 a shot. I want something you'll probably find a few boxes of at your local gun shop. The same goes for wildcats.

FIFTY CALIBER IS CRAZY AND USELESS. IF WE'RE GOING TO GO THAT FAR, WHY NOT JUST USE .950JDJ AND BE DONE WITH IT? scream

Actually, I wonder what a .50AE would look like in a rifle?  

[Stoic Socialist]

Fresnel

I will admit, using recoil to drive the action does mean there's that much less to hit you in the shoulder, and that's never a bad thing.

Have you PRICED African rifle rounds recently? Not only are they rare, but even the more common ones like the .470 Nitro are still $30 a shot. I want something you'll probably find a few boxes of at your local gun shop. The same goes for wildcats.

FIFTY CALIBER IS CRAZY AND USELESS. IF WE'RE GOING TO GO THAT FAR, WHY NOT JUST USE .950JDJ AND BE DONE WITH IT? scream

Actually, I wonder what a .50AE would look like in a rifle?

That's what I was thinking.

Sorry, I was assuming that if we'd be building our own rifle we'd have the means to a lot of cash and reloading resources. My bad. smile

Because an 80+ pound rifle might be a tad bit heavy? I was just posting that link because it talked about the operating system, I should've clarified.

Ruger made a carbine in the .44 mag (which the 10/22 was actually based off, IIRC). It'd probably look something along the lines of that, except the rotary magazine wouldn't be needed because of the .50 AE's rebated rim.

But for the .950 JDJ reference, I'm a little bit partial to the black powder 2, 4, and 6 bore, myself. = ]

Any objections to the .375 Ruger?

Fresnel

Well, I'm tossing out every decent .40-.50 caliber rifle round I can think of. So far, that makes:

.444 Marlin
.45-70 Gov
.458 SOCOM
.50 BEO

And now I'm just looking for an analysis from people who know their s**t. Personally I don't like the idea of the .45-70. Venerable though it is, it's not as long-range as I'd like, and it's falling out of favor.

All the above have similar ballistics to the .45-70. Many people have had good success shooting 1k yards with a black-powder .45-70/.45-90/.45-110 with aperture sights. People used to hunting with sharps rifles at that distances against buffalo, so I'd assume it could be done.
 

[Fresnel]

Stoic Socialist

Fresnel

I will admit, using recoil to drive the action does mean there's that much less to hit you in the shoulder, and that's never a bad thing.

Have you PRICED African rifle rounds recently? Not only are they rare, but even the more common ones like the .470 Nitro are still $30 a shot. I want something you'll probably find a few boxes of at your local gun shop. The same goes for wildcats.

FIFTY CALIBER IS CRAZY AND USELESS. IF WE'RE GOING TO GO THAT FAR, WHY NOT JUST USE .950JDJ AND BE DONE WITH IT? scream

Actually, I wonder what a .50AE would look like in a rifle?

That's what I was thinking.

Sorry, I was assuming that if we'd be building our own rifle we'd have the means to a lot of cash and reloading resources. My bad. smile

Perhaps WE do, but the people who buy our manufactured firearms may not. I'm not talking about building one JUST for us, but one that would make a good military rifle.

Quote:

Because an 80+ pound rifle might be a tad bit heavy? I was just posting that link because it talked about the operating system, I should've clarified.

I was being facetious.

Quote:

Ruger made a carbine in the .44 mag (which the 10/22 was actually based off, IIRC). It'd probably look something along the lines of that, except the rotary magazine wouldn't be needed because of the .50 AE's rebated rim.

Just for myself, I'd prefer something with a bottleneck or a semi-rim. It makes the tolerances less exact, leading to cheaper production.

Quote:

But for the .950 JDJ reference, I'm a little bit partial to the black powder 2, 4, and 6 bore, myself. = ]

Any objections to the .375 Ruger?

Never heard of it, too lazy to research ATM. Info?

Quote:

Fresnel

Well, I'm tossing out every decent .40-.50 caliber rifle round I can think of. So far, that makes:

.444 Marlin
.45-70 Gov
.458 SOCOM
.50 BEO

And now I'm just looking for an analysis from people who know their s**t. Personally I don't like the idea of the .45-70. Venerable though it is, it's not as long-range as I'd like, and it's falling out of favor.

All the above have similar ballistics to the .45-70. Many people have had good success shooting 1k yards with a black-powder .45-70/.45-90/.45-110 with aperture sights. People used to hunting with sharps rifles at that distances against buffalo, so I'd assume it could be done.

I'm curious to run a Taylor KO figure of each of those rounds and see what hits hardest. I'd think a non-spitzer bullet would be preferable, as most of the enemies our military shoots at are unarmored, and a big, blunt bullet would do more damage.  

[Stoic Socialist]

Fresnel

Perhaps WE do, but the people who buy our manufactured firearms may not. I'm not talking about building one JUST for us, but one that would make a good military rifle.
I didn't realize that was the intent of the question. Sorry. If we might be going to be make a manufacturing plant though, we might stick a deal with Hornady or some other ammo-manufacturing plant. Hornady developed the .450 Marlin and .375 Ruger, and Remington and Marlin made the .444.

Just for myself, I'd prefer something with a bottleneck or a semi-rim. It makes the tolerances less exact, leading to cheaper production.
Wouldn't a straight-walled cartridge lead to cheaper production and not bottleneck? The straight-walled one could have looser tolerances because you don't have to worry about head-spacing as much.

Never heard of it, too lazy to research ATM. Info?
It's Hornady's attempt at making a .375 H&H to fit into a standard-length rifle. It's rimless so it'll fit better in magazines than the .375 H&H, it's shorter than the H&H, and it's fatter to allow more case capacity. It shoots a 270 grain bullet at around 2,840 fps. It was made to work in a 22" barrel. Trajectory is about like a .30-06.

I'm curious to run a Taylor KO figure of each of those rounds and see what hits hardest. I'd think a non-spitzer bullet would be preferable, as most of the enemies our military shoots at are unarmored, and a big, blunt bullet would do more damage.
They all shoot a 300 grain bullet at 2000 fps, save for the AR ones which'll be at 1800-1900 for that weight. Do the TKO on one, you've done the TKO for them all. The .444 Marlin itself was designed to replicate the .45-70.

The .450 Marlin was made to be a modernized .45-70 though, so factory loads replicate hotter .45-70 loads. It's semi-rimmed, and is belted.

 

[Fresnel]

Stoic Socialist

Fresnel

Perhaps WE do, but the people who buy our manufactured firearms may not. I'm not talking about building one JUST for us, but one that would make a good military rifle.

I didn't realize that was the intent of the question. Sorry. If we might be going to be make a manufacturing plant though, we might stick a deal with Hornady or some other ammo-manufacturing plant. Hornady developed the .450 Marlin and .375 Ruger, and Remington and Marlin made the .444.

Well then the problem is getting gun stores to stock a cartridge that only fits in one gun. That's why I'd rather use an existing round.

Quote:

Just for myself, I'd prefer something with a bottleneck or a semi-rim. It makes the tolerances less exact, leading to cheaper production.
Wouldn't a straight-walled cartridge lead to cheaper production and not bottleneck? The straight-walled one could have looser tolerances because you don't have to worry about head-spacing as much.

Straight-walled rounds have to gas seal on the lip of the cartridge, which is what, a quarter-millimeter thick? The best gas seals come from rimmed cartridges, but those don't stack well in a magazine. Thus, the bottleneck was made, to gas seal on the neck. The semi-rim gives the gas seal of the rim but without the stacking issues. Also, I think the bottleneck gives better pressure per grain of powder.

Quote:

Never heard of it, too lazy to research ATM. Info?
It's Hornady's attempt at making a .375 H&H to fit into a standard-length rifle. It's rimless so it'll fit better in magazines than the .375 H&H, it's shorter than the H&H, and it's fatter to allow more case capacity. It shoots a 270 grain bullet at around 2,840 fps. It was made to work in a 22" barrel. Trajectory is about like a .30-06.

Hmm. Maybe...

Quote:

I'm curious to run a Taylor KO figure of each of those rounds and see what hits hardest. I'd think a non-spitzer bullet would be preferable, as most of the enemies our military shoots at are unarmored, and a big, blunt bullet would do more damage.
They all shoot a 300 grain bullet at 2000 fps, save for the AR ones which'll be at 1800-1900 for that weight. Do the TKO on one, you've done the TKO for them all. The .444 Marlin itself was designed to replicate the .45-70.

The .450 Marlin was made to be a modernized .45-70 though, so factory loads replicate hotter .45-70 loads. It's semi-rimmed, and is belted.

TKO also takes caliber into consideration, so the fattest bullet wins. Though personally, I'd probably take the merits of each particular round into consideration over the extra 1 or 2 TKO numbers. Availability, variety of bullet types, etc.

.450 Marlin sounds pretty sweet then, actually. I'll have to do some research sometime when I've got more free time and I'm feeling better.


Another thought that I had... what about a gattling-type action, but with a single barrel? If one firing pin breaks, then only one out of X-many rounds would fail to fire. Also, burst fire would be ridiculously fast. With three or four actions, you could also easily make it forward-eject like an F2000.  

[Fresnel]

Fresnel

I had an idea for an action once... a bullpupped AR action. Obviously gas piston, because impingement sucks, but instead of a buffer behind the bolt carrier, you use an EXPANSION spring (or two), and fasten them to the front of the receiver. That way the limit of how far back the action can be set is no longer dictated by the buffer spring, but by the bolt carrier. With a few modifications you could probably cut that down quite a bit, too. It wouldn't be super far back, but you could still drop the grip in front of the magazine.

So I discovered a while back that someone beat me to this. They just debuted it. It's not a bullpup, it just has a folding stock. The recoil spring surrounds the piston, and fixes way the hell down the front of the gun. I think. I forget exactly what it is, but it was a pretty cool system.

Fresnel

Another thought that I had... what about a gattling-type action, but with a single barrel? If one firing pin breaks, then only one out of X-many rounds would fail to fire. Also, burst fire would be ridiculously fast. With three or four actions, you could also easily make it forward-eject like an F2000.

Another idea along this line I had while thinking on how the AN-94 operates. Have two completely separate bolts operating in a Y-pattern. As one goes back, the other is already coming forward, it grabs a round, and throws it into the chamber. Either one; one bolt high and one low, or one left and one right. The only decent way I can think of offhand to do it involves a pulley, and pulley systems would be a b***h to clean. SxS would work well with a dual-feed magazine, too. While I suppose at that point you might as well have two barrels too, one barrel gives the advantage of having no parallax.  

[Ms Truffle]

If y'all are thinking of designing a gun, it better damn well be in .17-50.  

[ArmasTermin]

Shrantics Pretentious Ego

If y'all are thinking of designing a gun, it better damn well be in .17-50.

.17-50? I'd love to see that.

That'd be like one of those ladies' cigarettes.