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 Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:54 am
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:43 am
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wesden sorry for the delayed response...was on vacation and catching up smile Thanks for the feedback. If getting people to guilds is more of a social thing now, and a follow up to closer integration - I agree. I've always believed that Gaia users come here for several reasons, mainly to talk about stuff that interests them with the ability to express themselves through an avi, etc. Its really difficult to find stuff I like/interested in, and it shouldn't matter if its a forum or a guild - I'd like to see a content page for any search I do. And on that note, I will say we are updating search (within forums to start - so you can actually find stuff) and then moving on to sitewide search. Do you think calling guilds "clubs" or "groups" would help adoption? I agree - we should rename the forums in the guilds section and Simply Simone and I had a plan laid out earlier this year and it just kept getting bumped (reminds self to ask her again!) ok, enough of a rant on my part!
Enough of a rant? Did you see my post? xD Thanks for replying, hope you had a restful break. ^^
Updates to search can only be a good thing, especially if they lead to more people finding guilds that interest them.
I'm very attached to the name Guilds, and believe that name characterises these forums perfectly and mutually. But beyond the personal, it's a valid option to put on the table. I would say it may get a lot of current users offside, so you'd have to balance that with how sure you could be of bringing new ones in.
I'd love to know more about the current guild demography - how many users started using guilds in the past six months, vs the past five years, and how many active people there actually are, in an average day or week.
The name "groups" does call to mind facebook groups, which operate very differently in practice, although they're a similar concept I think. Guilds were priced at 20k to ensure captains had a substantial investment in the things; to encourage collaboration and dedication. But that's become less meaningful over time, due to inflation and saturation. In effect guilds have no prohibitive cost, meaning anyone could make one.
Facebook groups are transient, non-serious and forgettable, which guilds shouldn't be. But the good ones rise to the top. Is it worth evaluating Gaia's stance on what it 'wants' guilds to be? It could choose to renew the cost idea, make guilds a substantial upfront investment, or otherwise incentivise users to take guilds extremely serious and encourage them to collaborate with others. Or Gaia could choose to depart from this approach cleanly, and make guilds free.
That's just a thought that some staffers might be able to explore - I couldn't predict what the effects of either option would be on guild activity.
I am very glad to hear that you had something cooking for the guilds forums! I hope you and Simply Simone have the opportunity to work something out there.
I believe the Captains' Guild demonstrated that many guild users are interested in what other guild users in other guilds are doing. I think it's important that a place exists for that discussion.
Registered Guilds technically is that place, but it's not linked to guilds like the CG was. Personally, I'd love to see it set up in some way to provide the benefits that the CG was providing up until the time it closed - have it linked in the mod panel, have ads separated in a subforum, and have stickies (or links to threads in the GG&R forum) that provides guides and how-tos. Whatever else people think of the CG's culture, part of it was an interest in helping others. And captains still look for help - join requests to this guild often express simply that someone wants to learn the basics or get advice. Gaia has a forum for guilds, it just isn't used by anyone seeking or offering help and advice on captaining.
I hesitate before prescribing simply a name change and subforum as the answer. I can't necessarily say why the CG worked and why RG doesn't, and if that can be changed now or how. I don't know social the problem is or how far a few admin tweaks could go to fixing it. But like always, I had to post. ^^ |
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:15 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:47 pm
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wesden So, why is it that guilds are being neglected so much by the staff? Is it because you don't earn cash from it? I myself rarely venture out of guilds, and I know TONS of people who use them as well. It's unfair that you guys are moving off of guilds and neglecting them when there are so many problems in them, and when it seems you are in the middle of an update that was never finished a few months ago. Why aren't guilds getting the update that forums did? Is this ever going to happen? It's as if you all like getting us excited for something, build up to it, and then disappoint us by only giving a fraction of what we were told we'd be getting.
I appreciate your feedback, and think we did the best we could with the small team and time we had. Just a few comments...
Quote: So, why is it that guilds are being neglected so much by the staff?
guilds neglected by Gaia? We had a team spend 6 months on guilds.
Quote: Why aren't guilds getting the update that forums did?
which update is that? the guilds code is super old and the changes we made earlier this year took tons of time because of that. we only bit off a small portion of what we wanted to do because the code was so old, and we had limited time.
Quote: It's as if you all like getting us excited for something, build up to it, and then disappoint us by only giving a fraction of what we were told we'd be getting.
wesden again. I'm not sure what we promised other than guild updates in general. I would love to have a team dedicated to guilds currently as I think guilds are the diamond in the rough here at Gaia and could use an update. However, in order to match forums functionality we would require a large project to update the backend code.
This Need's To Be A Big Thing! We realize it would take a while but there is so much more work needs to be done! For so long nothing was done its gonna take more than 6 months to fix things and make this right, to "catch" guilds up to the rest of the site & make them active. |
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:38 pm
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Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:00 am
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WindowOpener Tari_Minyatur_DW That's the point! the old code needs to be brought up to date with the rest of the site as well as the forum's. This Need's To Be A Big Thing! We realize it would take a while but there is so much more work needs to be done! For so long nothing was done its gonna take more than 6 months to fix things and make this right, to "catch" guilds up to the rest of the site & make them active. Why does the oldness of the guild code necessarily mean people come here less? Code is mostly backend, and having old post formats in guilds doesn't change how easy or hard it is to post and hang out. |
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Fashionable Businesswoman
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:41 pm
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wesden Ezra So, why is it that guilds are being neglected so much by the staff? Is it because you don't earn cash from it? I myself rarely venture out of guilds, and I know TONS of people who use them as well. It's unfair that you guys are moving off of guilds and neglecting them when there are so many problems in them, and when it seems you are in the middle of an update that was never finished a few months ago. Why aren't guilds getting the update that forums did? Is this ever going to happen? It's as if you all like getting us excited for something, build up to it, and then disappoint us by only giving a fraction of what we were told we'd be getting. I appreciate your feedback, and think we did the best we could with the small team and time we had. Just a few comments... Quote: So, why is it that guilds are being neglected so much by the staff? guilds neglected by Gaia? We had a team spend 6 months on guilds. Quote: Why aren't guilds getting the update that forums did? which update is that? the guilds code is super old and the changes we made earlier this year took tons of time because of that. we only bit off a small portion of what we wanted to do because the code was so old, and we had limited time. Quote: It's as if you all like getting us excited for something, build up to it, and then disappoint us by only giving a fraction of what we were told we'd be getting. again. I'm not sure what we promised other than guild updates in general. I would love to have a team dedicated to guilds currently as I think guilds are the diamond in the rough here at Gaia and could use an update. However, in order to match forums functionality we would require a large project to update the backend code.
"guilds neglected by Gaia? We had a team spend 6 months on guilds. "
You said yourself that the team is moving away from guilds. This is why I would come to the conclusion that you guys are neglecting a very widely used free part of this site. I appreciate the six months of work you guys put into guilds. So, now what? In a year will you spend another six months? Or will you actually continue working on them? Obviously if the code is old, it needs to be updated. Why exactly isn't it updated? Was there not enough time to do it in six months? I'm not trying to be a d**k here, but I find it a little odd that you guys discontinued working on them. As well, I have another issue about guilds being neglected. I have had guild members post content that violates the terms of service on gaia. When I contacted a mod for help, I was informed that it is up to the guild crew, not the site crew, to handle this. I can understand this to an extent, but I feel that this is giving the message that if people violate the ToS in a guild, all they are risking is a ban from the guild. Nothing else will happen, and site mods are above handling these issues. This bugs me. If there isn't already, I believe there should be a team of moderators that help handle issues like this in guilds.
"again. I'm not sure what we promised other than guild updates in general. I would love to have a team dedicated to guilds currently as I think guilds are the diamond in the rough here at Gaia and could use an update. However, in order to match forums functionality we would require a large project to update the backend code."
I guess I worded that a little bit wrong. What upset me was that certain parts of the guilds seemed to have gotten an update, while others did not. The moderator panel has a completely updated look, while the rest of the areas never got this update. This is what I meant by only giving us a portion of something when it appeared we were going to be getting a finished update. As well, when Guild Announcements were promised, nothing was said about captains only being able to use this feature. It would have been really nice had you guys actually said something about this BEFORE doing it, or at least asking us if crew members should be allowed to use the feature. As I said before, crew members work just as hard, if not harder in many cases, as the captains. I moderate a very large active guild, and the captains are nowhere to be seen. I run almost all events, handle crap loads of violations, and do countless other things for this guild. Being able to make announcements would really help, and I'm positive I am not the only crew member of a guild who feels the same. I had made a comment about this when announcements were first released, and a dev merely brushed it off by telling me to message my captain and ask him to give feedback. I responded by suggesting that the devs just ask in this guild, and I was completely ignored. It's hard to feel that my feedback is helping at all when it seems that you guys don't care about it. |
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:43 pm
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:14 am
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:49 am
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Rhia-chan Excuse me for the double post, but I'd like to bring something else up: Security.
The account of the Vice-Captain for two guilds (one I'm captain, one I'm crew) was hacked. It was a personal attack, so every thread that had been posted in during the last two years was erased. Thousands of pages of literate roleplay and more than 30 threads were deleted, gone. One of the guilds was restored but the second one hasn't been, because until now we didn't know who had control of the Captain's account. It's been changed at last because of the 60day inactivity period, but we're waiting until after Final exams before we contact someone about restoration of at least the thread descriptions, and the last post of each thread.
Because of this tragedy, what I would like to see a 'Garbage' subforum that only crew can see. This would involve:
-When anyone but the captain deletes a thread, it is moved to the subforum instead of actually deleted.
-The subforum could be emptied every 7 days by default, the captain can erase threads as well. Either individually, or a mass purge?
-A notification similar to the 'new join request' that remains for the 24hrs leading up to the purge.
-Deleted posts might as well remain the same as before.
-The Captain can erase things at their leisure.
Guild backups would also be nice gonk But I realize this probably isn't possible.
LOVE!
heart heart heart
Preferably longer(or no) auto delete, with check boxes to delete many at once, but yes, LOVE.
I had a crew member delete a large RP thread. While I suspect the thread owner asked it to be deleted or locked, I would have preferred it locked. Why? Not just the post count, but because I love reading stories, and I was gone for a while and what to be able to read as far as the thread got, and leave it for others to read it. It also makes it possible for the thread to be remade.
Besides this, I wouldn't have the control issues I do. I have two crew members, without truly wanting it because of the control issues. But without them my guild would have died in either the attack it had from an argument when I was gone for two weekends because my grandmother was dieing. Or because of my first full-time trimester of college where I was just gone and others faded activity.
My crew members, and all the members of my guild matter to me (mostly the active ones because I know them better). It is our guild, not mine. When I wasn't on I worried about them being affected by my absence, not the guild dieing. And I know I have to trust them, but with no chance of reversal it is difficult.
Please, at least consider this idea. This would make people more comfortable with having a crew, and thus someone that can hold order in the guild. While editable permissions would work the same, and better in this light, it would be more coading. Sure, the trashcan subforum would use more server space but that is why there would be an auto delete right? This feature could cost 20K gold and be a gold sink even. Please. This would save BPLB so much more effectively when RL gets busy. I'm sure a lot of other guilds would have a better crew with the captain not needing to worry about the horror stories.
I understand that coding is difficult (I could never have the patience for it). I understand money issues(not as well). But please, just a buffer for deletion. I know that a crew power editor would be an insanly huge project. I know that without someone around to delete the ToS violations or other bad things a guild would rot or be banned. However, this buffer would help so much, and ease my concerns of having a crew.
Please. |
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:22 am
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LillianSaire Rhia-chan Excuse me for the double post, but I'd like to bring something else up: Security.
The account of the Vice-Captain for two guilds (one I'm captain, one I'm crew) was hacked. It was a personal attack, so every thread that had been posted in during the last two years was erased. Thousands of pages of literate roleplay and more than 30 threads were deleted, gone. One of the guilds was restored but the second one hasn't been, because until now we didn't know who had control of the Captain's account. It's been changed at last because of the 60day inactivity period, but we're waiting until after Final exams before we contact someone about restoration of at least the thread descriptions, and the last post of each thread.
Because of this tragedy, what I would like to see a 'Garbage' subforum that only crew can see. This would involve:
-When anyone but the captain deletes a thread, it is moved to the subforum instead of actually deleted.
-The subforum could be emptied every 7 days by default, the captain can erase threads as well. Either individually, or a mass purge?
-A notification similar to the 'new join request' that remains for the 24hrs leading up to the purge.
-Deleted posts might as well remain the same as before.
-The Captain can erase things at their leisure.
Guild backups would also be nice gonk But I realize this probably isn't possible.
LOVE! heart heart heart Preferably longer(or no) auto delete, with check boxes to delete many at once, but yes, LOVE. I had a crew member delete a large RP thread. While I suspect the thread owner asked it to be deleted or locked, I would have preferred it locked. Why? Not just the post count, but because I love reading stories, and I was gone for a while and what to be able to read as far as the thread got, and leave it for others to read it. It also makes it possible for the thread to be remade. Besides this, I wouldn't have the control issues I do. I have two crew members, without truly wanting it because of the control issues. But without them my guild would have died in either the attack it had from an argument when I was gone for two weekends because my grandmother was dieing. Or because of my first full-time trimester of college where I was just gone and others faded activity. My crew members, and all the members of my guild matter to me (mostly the active ones because I know them better). It is our guild, not mine. When I wasn't on I worried about them being affected by my absence, not the guild dieing. And I know I have to trust them, but with no chance of reversal it is difficult. Please, at least consider this idea. This would make people more comfortable with having a crew, and thus someone that can hold order in the guild. While editable permissions would work the same, and better in this light, it would be more coading. Sure, the trashcan subforum would use more server space but that is why there would be an auto delete right? This feature could cost 20K gold and be a gold sink even. Please. This would save BPLB so much more effectively when RL gets busy. I'm sure a lot of other guilds would have a better crew with the captain not needing to worry about the horror stories. I understand that coding is difficult (I could never have the patience for it). I understand money issues(not as well). But please, just a buffer for deletion. I know that a crew power editor would be an insanly huge project. I know that without someone around to delete the ToS violations or other bad things a guild would rot or be banned. However, this buffer would help so much, and ease my concerns of having a crew. Please. |
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Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:59 am
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:29 pm
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:06 am
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I like the idea of having various levels of Broadcast:
Crew
All
Less then 30 Posts
Over a month since last post
etc.
___________________________________________
And I don't think it's fair that you guys change one thing we ask for, assume that's enough to revive guilds, discover it isn't, and move on.
That ridiculous! One feature, does not a successful rebirth, make!
That's like saying
"Let's change the way traffic signs look, to improve traffic-flow" ... (a month later) ...
"Hmm, the flow hasn't improved very much. Oh well, I guess we'll move on to remodeling our rest areas to earn more money. We can forget about this project now."
It just doesn't work that way. You need to make more than a few changes. And you need to keep trying to improve on what you have. Then, things will improve greatly over time. Eventually, you'll get what you're looking for. And you'll have happier guildies, who may be more willing to foot the bill with real money, if they feel there needs are getting met.
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:40 am
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1wolffan I like the idea of having various levels of Broadcast: Crew All Less then 30 Posts Over a month since last post etc. ___________________________________________ And I don't think it's fair that you guys change one thing we ask for, assume that's enough to revive guilds, discover it isn't, and move on. That ridiculous! One feature, does not a successful rebirth, make! That's like saying "Let's change the way traffic signs look, to improve traffic-flow" ... (a month later) ... "Hmm, the flow hasn't improved very much. Oh well, I guess we'll move on to remodeling our rest areas to earn more money for our State. We can forget about this project now." It just doesn't work that way. You need to make more than a few changes. And you need to keep trying to improve on what you have. Then, things will improve greatly over time. Eventually, you'll get what you're looking for. And you'll have happier guildies, who may be more willing to foot the bill with real money, if they feel there needs are getting met.
*applauds* Could not have put it better myself.
I think Gaia's approach to this has been pathetic. |
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