Taurus Judge

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

.....Just like any handgun available?

Yeah, exactly. Except the Judge can make four or five holes to another handgun's one.

Okay, NOW I'm seeing a use for a rifled choke and buckshot.

And each pellet has less power for it. At the "OH ******** CARJACKER" scenario, you'd be just as well served with an auto in any appreciable common caliber with quality JHPs, which are significantly easier to find than #000 .410. Or any .410 other than #8 or #9. They'll be dumping all their energy into it, which is likely more than each pellet of 000 out of the short barrel.

And in a house, you'd be better served by a long gun. Especially when a good pump-action 12 gauge is half the cost. If not less. And it's easier (and likely cheaper) to find #00 in #4 or #00.

It might have less power, but that's at a distance. We're talking almost point-blank ranges here. Two, three feet at most. "Muzzle velocity" is a very good idea of what we'd get at impact distance. Muzzle velocity for Federal Personal Defense .410 in 2.5" shells is comparable to a 9mm (Federal claims 1200fps). So it really IS like hitting the other guy with 4 9mm bullets at once.

And I dunno about you, but Federal Personal Defense .410 is a common item on the shelf at my local Wal-Mart. It's not impossible to find, depending on where you live. Most pistol calibers, however, are impossible to run across there.

Do they tell the barrel length they tested with?

They don't but they go on about how the load was designed for the Judge, so I'd assume it was tested on a Judge. I won't say it's impossible that they used a long gun to give fudged results though, but Federal has always come across as a stand-up company to me. I wouldn't expect that.

Quote:

Each pellet has less mass. The total energy for each pellet is low, and there are four of them. Not eight, not nine, not 12, four. Hell, even in 12 gauge, each pellet of 00 only has 130-something foot-pounds of energy.

Four, yes. And, assuming lead, it's 70gr as opposed to 110-150gr in 9mm. Time for SCIENCE!

This number is a 9mm, taken from Wikipedia because I'm lazy and I trust them.

140 gr FMJ, 1000fps, 419 J

Let's do the math on a single pellet from that Federal load.

70 gr, 1200fps, 303J (using k=1/2mv^2)

So a single pellet from the Judge is 3/4 as effective as a single 9mm bullet. Except there's not one, there's four of them. Given the 3/4 figure, this means that a single shot from the Judge is three times as effective as a single shot from a 9mm. And in physical shock value, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, so add some more on there too.

Quote:

How many people do you know actually carry a Judge? I know plenty of people who own them. NONE carry them regularly. FEW carry them boating for snakes. Which is the real use for a .410 handgun.

You're walking away from the original hypothetical here. We're only arguing car defense. Keep it that way.

Quote:

I can find, BUCKSHOT in .410:
Brown Bear #4. $16 for 25. Oh, and it's 3".
Sellier and Bellot 000, three pellet. 2.5". $20 for 25.
S&B, 00, unlisted number of pellets. 3", $22 for 25.
Winchester Super-x. 000. Three pellets. 2.5". $6 for 5.
Federal ".410 Handgun". 4 pellets. 000. 2.5". $14 for 20.
Two of those can't even be used in the more common Judge.

Federal also makes a #4 load.

Also, Brown Bear .410 is brass-cased. I find that odd. Never seen brass-cased .410 before. Just thought I'd share that.

And so the ******** what if it's expensive? Again, the hypothetical began with "if I was rich".  

[owenmarco]

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

ArmasTermin

Guys, I don't intend to miss. mrgreen

Nobody ever does.

Quote:

I'll look into these breaching slugs, but I guess if the best way to be sure is to use something with a tighter pattern and just not miss, that's what I should strive for. Training training training! I just don't know if it could be held against me in court that using better-penetrating ammo was putting my neighbors in jeopardy.

Breaching slugs are to shotguns what frangible ammo is to anything else. They hit something and turn to dust. Overpenetration is unlikely.

Quote:

Of course can't your average .223 super duper armor piercing cop killer pregnant teenage mother magnum poke a hole straight through a whole city block? wink

I put a .223 HPBT through a quarter-inch steel plate once. I don't doubt that it could punch through two sets of exterior walls at suburb distances and still carry lethal force.

@Uryu: I guess I didn't see that one. Link/summarize?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Summary?
Same as the first tests. Anything worth a damn against a person will zip right through several interior walls. The only thing going to stop them is stufs, well-built furniture, and a squishy torso.

EDIT:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm
That is another one, with two "walls" that aren't quite as far away.

There's no breaching slugs there. Breaching slugs are frangible. They physically DISINTEGRATE when they hit something. They fail to exist as a solid object by the time they hit the second wall. That's how they skirt the general rule of "big enough to kill, big enough to break through as many walls as you can give it".

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot25.htm

6" of flesh penetration, in a controlled setting. OH! And it penetrated 10 sheets of drywall. Hell, the wad did too.

Breaching slugs are just that. FOR BREACHING. Frangible ammunition was designed to prevent ricochets, or places such as an airplane. It does those pretty well. They still also make more shallow, nasty wounds.

I'll stick with my #00 and Hornady XTP.  

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

ArmasTermin

Guys, I don't intend to miss. mrgreen

The way the place is set up makes it pretty easy for a clean shot on any possible bad guys. And the angle in which any conceivable shot would be made would offer a decent chance that no stray pellets would cause anyone outside harm.

God I hope I never have to actually find out. sad

I'll look into these breaching slugs, but I guess if the best way to be sure is to use something with a tighter pattern and just not miss, that's what I should strive for. Training training training! I just don't know if it could be held against me in court that using better-penetrating ammo was putting my neighbors in jeopardy.

Of course can't your average .223 super duper armor piercing cop killer pregnant teenage mother magnum poke a hole straight through a whole city block? wink

Thing with breaching slugs, is they are just like birdshot in slug form. It creates a nasty, but SHALLOW wound. They can't strike CNS, they can't cause too much organ damage. Sure, I hear "I doubt they'll want to continue with a six-inch crater in them!" Sure, they might not. That's also MAYBE only two inches deep. What if they DO want to continue? I much prefer "will" rather than "might". He can't very well continue with a disrupted CNS. 9 different wound channels, ******** yes.

Also, FLITECONTROL! Flite Control wads, by Federal, turn it essentially into a SLUG. A pre-fragmented slug. They keep patterns extremely tight, even further out. They're really cool. I'm using Fiocchi low-recoil cheap stuff (starting later today when it arrives), but I have a brick exterior, as do all the houses, and I'm not breaching 7 yards (and that's really pushing it)

A: I think you have a slight misunderstanding of exactly what a breaching slug does, how it works, and what it's made of.

B: Do you have ANY IDEA how hypocritical what you just said was?

Compressed powder, OR a plastic container that holds a powder. It's designed to break a lock with minimal backblast and minimal penetration through whatever is behind it. It does that well. It ******** SUCKS against people.

I feel compelled to point you towards Box 'O Truth again. The breaching slugs they tested destroyed two jugs of water. Anything that can punch that deep into an incompressible liquid is going to seriously ******** up a person.

Quote:

Let's see. PREGRAGMENTED SLUG. Compressed metal powder. Two different things. You have 9 pellets that maintain a bore-sized group at inside-the-home distances that penetrate as deep as they normally would, but in a centralized location. They spread slightly when they deform and yaw in the flesh. Then there is powder, that, as you stated yourself, DISINTEGRATES. It makes a nasty, shallow wound.

Flite control wads aren't available in any load bigger than "turkey". So what you're suggesting is essentially a breaching slug, except it comes apart on its own after a distance.

And that depends on your definition of "shallow". It's no flesh wound, it takes a while to come apart. It's just that once it's hit, it comes apart no matter what it's in, air or person. It's no good if you expect to be shooting through walls and into people, but if you're dropping it straight into a person it hits like a full slug for the first six inches or so.  

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

ArmasTermin

Guys, I don't intend to miss. mrgreen

Nobody ever does.

Quote:

I'll look into these breaching slugs, but I guess if the best way to be sure is to use something with a tighter pattern and just not miss, that's what I should strive for. Training training training! I just don't know if it could be held against me in court that using better-penetrating ammo was putting my neighbors in jeopardy.

Breaching slugs are to shotguns what frangible ammo is to anything else. They hit something and turn to dust. Overpenetration is unlikely.

Quote:

Of course can't your average .223 super duper armor piercing cop killer pregnant teenage mother magnum poke a hole straight through a whole city block? wink

I put a .223 HPBT through a quarter-inch steel plate once. I don't doubt that it could punch through two sets of exterior walls at suburb distances and still carry lethal force.

@Uryu: I guess I didn't see that one. Link/summarize?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Summary?
Same as the first tests. Anything worth a damn against a person will zip right through several interior walls. The only thing going to stop them is stufs, well-built furniture, and a squishy torso.

EDIT:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm
That is another one, with two "walls" that aren't quite as far away.

There's no breaching slugs there. Breaching slugs are frangible. They physically DISINTEGRATE when they hit something. They fail to exist as a solid object by the time they hit the second wall. That's how they skirt the general rule of "big enough to kill, big enough to break through as many walls as you can give it".

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot25.htm

6" of flesh penetration, in a controlled setting. OH! And it penetrated 10 sheets of drywall. Hell, the wad did too.

Breaching slugs are just that. FOR BREACHING. Frangible ammunition was designed to prevent ricochets, or places such as an airplane. It does those pretty well. They still also make more shallow, nasty wounds.

I'll stick with my #00 and Hornady XTP.

That's the exact wall test I said was bullshit, because no real walls are 1" apart. If you put it in the "four walls" test you posted a few minutes ago, I'd bet money it wouldn't penetrate the fourth.

Frangible ammo was also supposed to prevent overpenetration. Which is funny, because breaching slugs are made to blow the lock off a door and not be lethal in the room beyond...

I thought you were a hardliner for "00 is overkill".

ETA: I think we need to never mention shotguns around each other again. xd  

[owenmarco]

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

Yeah, exactly. Except the Judge can make four or five holes to another handgun's one.

Okay, NOW I'm seeing a use for a rifled choke and buckshot.

And each pellet has less power for it. At the "OH ******** CARJACKER" scenario, you'd be just as well served with an auto in any appreciable common caliber with quality JHPs, which are significantly easier to find than #000 .410. Or any .410 other than #8 or #9. They'll be dumping all their energy into it, which is likely more than each pellet of 000 out of the short barrel.

And in a house, you'd be better served by a long gun. Especially when a good pump-action 12 gauge is half the cost. If not less. And it's easier (and likely cheaper) to find #00 in #4 or #00.

It might have less power, but that's at a distance. We're talking almost point-blank ranges here. Two, three feet at most. "Muzzle velocity" is a very good idea of what we'd get at impact distance. Muzzle velocity for Federal Personal Defense .410 in 2.5" shells is comparable to a 9mm (Federal claims 1200fps). So it really IS like hitting the other guy with 4 9mm bullets at once.

And I dunno about you, but Federal Personal Defense .410 is a common item on the shelf at my local Wal-Mart. It's not impossible to find, depending on where you live. Most pistol calibers, however, are impossible to run across there.

Do they tell the barrel length they tested with?

They don't but they go on about how the load was designed for the Judge, so I'd assume it was tested on a Judge. I won't say it's impossible that they used a long gun to give fudged results though, but Federal has always come across as a stand-up company to me. I wouldn't expect that.

Quote:

Each pellet has less mass. The total energy for each pellet is low, and there are four of them. Not eight, not nine, not 12, four. Hell, even in 12 gauge, each pellet of 00 only has 130-something foot-pounds of energy.

Four, yes. And, assuming lead, it's 70gr as opposed to 110-150gr in 9mm. Time for SCIENCE!

This number is a 9mm, taken from Wikipedia because I'm lazy and I trust them.

140 gr FMJ, 1000fps, 419 J

Let's do the math on a single pellet from that Federal load.

70 gr, 1200fps, 303J (using k=1/2mv^2)

So a single pellet from the Judge is 3/4 as effective as a single 9mm bullet. Except there's not one, there's four of them. Given the 3/4 figure, this means that a single shot from the Judge is three times as effective as a single shot from a 9mm. And in physical shock value, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, so add some more on there too.

Quote:

How many people do you know actually carry a Judge? I know plenty of people who own them. NONE carry them regularly. FEW carry them boating for snakes. Which is the real use for a .410 handgun.

You're walking away from the original hypothetical here. We're only arguing car defense. Keep it that way.

Quote:

I can find, BUCKSHOT in .410:
Brown Bear #4. $16 for 25. Oh, and it's 3".
Sellier and Bellot 000, three pellet. 2.5". $20 for 25.
S&B, 00, unlisted number of pellets. 3", $22 for 25.
Winchester Super-x. 000. Three pellets. 2.5". $6 for 5.
Federal ".410 Handgun". 4 pellets. 000. 2.5". $14 for 20.
Two of those can't even be used in the more common Judge.

Federal also makes a #4 load.

Also, Brown Bear .410 is brass-cased. I find that odd. Never seen brass-cased .410 before. Just thought I'd share that.

And so the ******** what if it's expensive? Again, the hypothetical began with "if I was rich".

BOTS tried the Judge. 000 has minimal flesh penetration, and unbuffered lead pellets deform like a ******** (increased spread wildly)

There are tens of 9mm loads, as I've shown you. Most of which are 1200fps or more. And don't forget +Ps.

How the ******** are you getting your numbers?
I'm using the same formula, both with Grains and Grams. I even plugged in Kilograms, which is a really damn long number.

K=1/2(A)1000^2

A=
140grn
9.07 Grams
0.00907 kilograms

I'll do Kilograms, since it's the Standard Unit of mass.
1/2(0.00907)(1000)^2
Using my trusty TI85, I get:
4535.

And 70 grains is ideal. You'd have to buy a box and physically measure it to get the correct measurement. The loads that BOTS bought came out to 62 grains each. but let's roll with it.
1/2(0.00454)(1200)^2
3268.8


Using a converter, using FEDERAL's claimed muzzle energy for their 147grn 1000FPS load, I get 441.996 joules.

Funnily enough, Federal provides, at most, a TENTH of the information on their .410 load as any of their rifle or handgun loads. ALL they say is the FPS and the length of the shell. Otherwise, all they say is "#4 or 4-pellet 000)

Also, effectiveness is not just joules. 9mmJHPs penetrate deeper, as well as expand and occasionally fragment to create wider wound channels and impart the most energy.

And how many people do you know not only have a normal carry gun, but ANOTHER handgun JUST for the car? ******** the hypotheticals, most people have ONE carry gun at a given time. And it serves both purposes. At this hypothetical car defense, any of the supposed benefits of a shotgun shell are pretty well the same with any other handgun. You can't miss. All energy is imparted. If it was such a big goddamn deal, that I needed a special gun just for it, I'D BUY A SERBU SUPER SHORTY. Since we're assuming car defense only. 9 pellets of low-recoil 00>4 pellets of 000 out of a revolver.
Again, how many people do you know use a Judge for ANYTHING other than range fun and snakes?

It's steel cased, brass-washed, actually. A lot of the russian stuff is. And other combloc ammo, for that matter. I thought my Bulgarian x54R was brass-cased until I took a magnet too it. Brass-washed steel.

If I were rich, I'd have an up-armored vehicle and not give a damn about it. Unlike some retards (who you see in the news or on Worlds Wildest Police Videos), I keep my car doors locked when I drive. And use the AC rather than the windows (unless I'm about 50 miles away from any other civilization--specifically for the air, half the time. Damn living next to a former-and-somewhat-current nuclear facility, Oak Ridge)
And for some idiots, who stop when they aren't boxed in by other cars:
YOU'RE DRIVING A THOUSAND POUND DEATH MACHINE. STOMP THE GAS. HE CAN'T KEEP UP, AND YOU CAN CRUSH HIM IF HE JUMPS IN FRONT.  

[owenmarco]

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

Nobody ever does.

Breaching slugs are to shotguns what frangible ammo is to anything else. They hit something and turn to dust. Overpenetration is unlikely.

I put a .223 HPBT through a quarter-inch steel plate once. I don't doubt that it could punch through two sets of exterior walls at suburb distances and still carry lethal force.

@Uryu: I guess I didn't see that one. Link/summarize?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Summary?
Same as the first tests. Anything worth a damn against a person will zip right through several interior walls. The only thing going to stop them is stufs, well-built furniture, and a squishy torso.

EDIT:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm
That is another one, with two "walls" that aren't quite as far away.

There's no breaching slugs there. Breaching slugs are frangible. They physically DISINTEGRATE when they hit something. They fail to exist as a solid object by the time they hit the second wall. That's how they skirt the general rule of "big enough to kill, big enough to break through as many walls as you can give it".

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot25.htm

6" of flesh penetration, in a controlled setting. OH! And it penetrated 10 sheets of drywall. Hell, the wad did too.

Breaching slugs are just that. FOR BREACHING. Frangible ammunition was designed to prevent ricochets, or places such as an airplane. It does those pretty well. They still also make more shallow, nasty wounds.

I'll stick with my #00 and Hornady XTP.

That's the exact wall test I said was bullshit, because no real walls are 1" apart. If you put it in the "four walls" test you posted a few minutes ago, I'd bet money it wouldn't penetrate the fourth.

Frangible ammo was also supposed to prevent overpenetration. Which is funny, because breaching slugs are made to blow the lock off a door and not be lethal in the room beyond...

I thought you were a hardliner for "00 is overkill".

ETA: I think we need to never mention shotguns around each other again. xd

And no real walls are a single layer of drywall, either. Know anyone else doing ANY testing?

If you watch the inventors, you'd think they invented frangible ammo for IPSA gamers. They show it off by shooting a steel plate from arms length. And then they show of a "shoot house", with multiple people in different rooms. It disintigrates when it hits a solid object. No ricochets. No wall penetrations (well...Drywall isn't cinderblock or steel. It's essentially paper)

I like #1 and #4. You have more pellets in both, meaning more, and a wider range of, wound channels. More capacity to damage soft tissue, deeply, that is. They both meet FBI penetration standards. #1 is a b***h to find. Fiocchi was cheaper than the #4 loads. #0 is the best of all, but damn near doesn't exist anymore. I've never called #00 overkill, but others are MORE ideal. Actually, as well, the deepest penetration in gel they got out of 00 (even if it was just a single pellet) was farther than a lead rifled slug. Which pretty much caused an explosion on impact, and then penetrated a good 15" of gel while yawing, expanding, and generally making a big mess. Slugs are great choices if you can handle the shoulder beating, and are sure in your aim.  

[owenmarco]

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

ArmasTermin

Guys, I don't intend to miss. mrgreen

The way the place is set up makes it pretty easy for a clean shot on any possible bad guys. And the angle in which any conceivable shot would be made would offer a decent chance that no stray pellets would cause anyone outside harm.

God I hope I never have to actually find out. sad

I'll look into these breaching slugs, but I guess if the best way to be sure is to use something with a tighter pattern and just not miss, that's what I should strive for. Training training training! I just don't know if it could be held against me in court that using better-penetrating ammo was putting my neighbors in jeopardy.

Of course can't your average .223 super duper armor piercing cop killer pregnant teenage mother magnum poke a hole straight through a whole city block? wink

Thing with breaching slugs, is they are just like birdshot in slug form. It creates a nasty, but SHALLOW wound. They can't strike CNS, they can't cause too much organ damage. Sure, I hear "I doubt they'll want to continue with a six-inch crater in them!" Sure, they might not. That's also MAYBE only two inches deep. What if they DO want to continue? I much prefer "will" rather than "might". He can't very well continue with a disrupted CNS. 9 different wound channels, ******** yes.

Also, FLITECONTROL! Flite Control wads, by Federal, turn it essentially into a SLUG. A pre-fragmented slug. They keep patterns extremely tight, even further out. They're really cool. I'm using Fiocchi low-recoil cheap stuff (starting later today when it arrives), but I have a brick exterior, as do all the houses, and I'm not breaching 7 yards (and that's really pushing it)

A: I think you have a slight misunderstanding of exactly what a breaching slug does, how it works, and what it's made of.

B: Do you have ANY IDEA how hypocritical what you just said was?

Compressed powder, OR a plastic container that holds a powder. It's designed to break a lock with minimal backblast and minimal penetration through whatever is behind it. It does that well. It ******** SUCKS against people.

I feel compelled to point you towards Box 'O Truth again. The breaching slugs they tested destroyed two jugs of water. Anything that can punch that deep into an incompressible liquid is going to seriously ******** up a person.

Quote:

Let's see. PREGRAGMENTED SLUG. Compressed metal powder. Two different things. You have 9 pellets that maintain a bore-sized group at inside-the-home distances that penetrate as deep as they normally would, but in a centralized location. They spread slightly when they deform and yaw in the flesh. Then there is powder, that, as you stated yourself, DISINTEGRATES. It makes a nasty, shallow wound.

Flite control wads aren't available in any load bigger than "turkey". So what you're suggesting is essentially a breaching slug, except it comes apart on its own after a distance.

And that depends on your definition of "shallow". It's no flesh wound, it takes a while to come apart. It's just that once it's hit, it comes apart no matter what it's in, air or person. It's no good if you expect to be shooting through walls and into people, but if you're dropping it straight into a person it hits like a full slug for the first six inches or so.

I point ot BOTS. Two jugs of water is 12 inches of water penetration. In a direct comparison, that is 6" of penetration in ideal gel. HALF. That is the line between the two. He always calculates the gel penetration afterwards to show it. He doesn't use gel because it's more expensive, and it's very hard to keep consistent in Texas summers. Which is why it's usually used in a lab, by people such as Brassfetcher. (Oleg Volk is doing some of his newer photography!)

Dude, you can't find FliteControl wads in anything but turkey? You're pretty ********' deprived with your sources. Look around.
Federal makes an LE 8-pellet 00 load with fliteControl
A 9-pellet full-power load
And then Vital-Shok 9-pellet full-power loads.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-federal-le-tactical-flitecontrol-8-pell-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-buckshot

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-federal-le-tactical-full-power-9-pell-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-buckshot

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-federal-vitalshok-flitecontrol-9-pell-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-buckshot

Hell, a member of THR did several tests.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=482930&highlight=flite+control

If the images are back up, there are comparative pictures between the FliteControl Wad and Vital Shok non-FC.


The "wad" or more correctly the capsule, will penetrate deeper than any of the powder. Because it's powder. You can see the s**t on the board the lock was attached to.  

[owenmarco]

I'd love to continue the debate, but it's 5AM here, and I NEED TO SLEEP. The Brown Truck Of Happiness is bringing my Fiocchi today, and if I don't catch him knocking on the door (or lightly tapping, to be more correct), he won't leave it. Of course, he won't get the required signature, but he won't leave it.  

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

And each pellet has less power for it. At the "OH ******** CARJACKER" scenario, you'd be just as well served with an auto in any appreciable common caliber with quality JHPs, which are significantly easier to find than #000 .410. Or any .410 other than #8 or #9. They'll be dumping all their energy into it, which is likely more than each pellet of 000 out of the short barrel.

And in a house, you'd be better served by a long gun. Especially when a good pump-action 12 gauge is half the cost. If not less. And it's easier (and likely cheaper) to find #00 in #4 or #00.

It might have less power, but that's at a distance. We're talking almost point-blank ranges here. Two, three feet at most. "Muzzle velocity" is a very good idea of what we'd get at impact distance. Muzzle velocity for Federal Personal Defense .410 in 2.5" shells is comparable to a 9mm (Federal claims 1200fps). So it really IS like hitting the other guy with 4 9mm bullets at once.

And I dunno about you, but Federal Personal Defense .410 is a common item on the shelf at my local Wal-Mart. It's not impossible to find, depending on where you live. Most pistol calibers, however, are impossible to run across there.

Do they tell the barrel length they tested with?

They don't but they go on about how the load was designed for the Judge, so I'd assume it was tested on a Judge. I won't say it's impossible that they used a long gun to give fudged results though, but Federal has always come across as a stand-up company to me. I wouldn't expect that.

Quote:

Each pellet has less mass. The total energy for each pellet is low, and there are four of them. Not eight, not nine, not 12, four. Hell, even in 12 gauge, each pellet of 00 only has 130-something foot-pounds of energy.

Four, yes. And, assuming lead, it's 70gr as opposed to 110-150gr in 9mm. Time for SCIENCE!

This number is a 9mm, taken from Wikipedia because I'm lazy and I trust them.

140 gr FMJ, 1000fps, 419 J

Let's do the math on a single pellet from that Federal load.

70 gr, 1200fps, 303J (using k=1/2mv^2)

So a single pellet from the Judge is 3/4 as effective as a single 9mm bullet. Except there's not one, there's four of them. Given the 3/4 figure, this means that a single shot from the Judge is three times as effective as a single shot from a 9mm. And in physical shock value, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, so add some more on there too.

Quote:

How many people do you know actually carry a Judge? I know plenty of people who own them. NONE carry them regularly. FEW carry them boating for snakes. Which is the real use for a .410 handgun.

You're walking away from the original hypothetical here. We're only arguing car defense. Keep it that way.

Quote:

I can find, BUCKSHOT in .410:
Brown Bear #4. $16 for 25. Oh, and it's 3".
Sellier and Bellot 000, three pellet. 2.5". $20 for 25.
S&B, 00, unlisted number of pellets. 3", $22 for 25.
Winchester Super-x. 000. Three pellets. 2.5". $6 for 5.
Federal ".410 Handgun". 4 pellets. 000. 2.5". $14 for 20.
Two of those can't even be used in the more common Judge.

Federal also makes a #4 load.

Also, Brown Bear .410 is brass-cased. I find that odd. Never seen brass-cased .410 before. Just thought I'd share that.

And so the ******** what if it's expensive? Again, the hypothetical began with "if I was rich".

BOTS tried the Judge. 000 has minimal flesh penetration, and unbuffered lead pellets deform like a ******** (increased spread wildly)

That's probably more the rifled barrel's doing. Like I said, it's meant to be used at almost pistol-whipping distance.

Quote:

There are tens of 9mm loads, as I've shown you. Most of which are 1200fps or more. And don't forget +Ps.

How the ******** are you getting your numbers?
I'm using the same formula, both with Grains and Grams. I even plugged in Kilograms, which is a really damn long number.

K=1/2(A)1000^2

A=
140grn
9.07 Grams
0.00907 kilograms

I'll do Kilograms, since it's the Standard Unit of mass.
1/2(0.00907)(1000)^2
Using my trusty TI85, I get:
4535.

You're mixing SI and Metric. Use meters per second, not feet.

Quote:

And 70 grains is ideal. You'd have to buy a box and physically measure it to get the correct measurement. The loads that BOTS bought came out to 62 grains each. but let's roll with it.
1/2(0.00454)(1200)^2
3268.8


Using a converter, using FEDERAL's claimed muzzle energy for their 147grn 1000FPS load, I get 441.996 joules.

Funnily enough, Federal provides, at most, a TENTH of the information on their .410 load as any of their rifle or handgun loads. ALL they say is the FPS and the length of the shell. Otherwise, all they say is "#4 or 4-pellet 000)

Also, effectiveness is not just joules. 9mmJHPs penetrate deeper, as well as expand and occasionally fragment to create wider wound channels and impart the most energy.

#000 hits you in four places at once. It's a tradeoff.

Quote:

And how many people do you know not only have a normal carry gun, but ANOTHER handgun JUST for the car? ******** the hypotheticals, most people have ONE carry gun at a given time. And it serves both purposes. At this hypothetical car defense, any of the supposed benefits of a shotgun shell are pretty well the same with any other handgun. You can't miss. All energy is imparted. If it was such a big goddamn deal, that I needed a special gun just for it, I'D BUY A SERBU SUPER SHORTY. Since we're assuming car defense only. 9 pellets of low-recoil 00>4 pellets of 000 out of a revolver.
Again, how many people do you know use a Judge for ANYTHING other than range fun and snakes?

You really, really fail at hypotheticals. I SAID, "If I had the money to keep a gun for my car and only my car..."

Also, the Serbu is 16" long. Kinda hard to jam that in the crack beside your seat, and the pump handle is a serious snag risk on a fast draw.

Quote:

It's steel cased, brass-washed, actually. A lot of the russian stuff is. And other combloc ammo, for that matter. I thought my Bulgarian x54R was brass-cased until I took a magnet too it. Brass-washed steel.

That's weird. I thought brass was used for its malleability and thermal characteristics. Why bother brass-washing steel? Just to save the chamber from a beating?

Quote:

If I were rich, I'd have an up-armored vehicle and not give a damn about it. Unlike some retards (who you see in the news or on Worlds Wildest Police Videos), I keep my car doors locked when I drive. And use the AC rather than the windows (unless I'm about 50 miles away from any other civilization--specifically for the air, half the time. Damn living next to a former-and-somewhat-current nuclear facility, Oak Ridge)
And for some idiots, who stop when they aren't boxed in by other cars:
YOU'RE DRIVING A THOUSAND POUND DEATH MACHINE. STOMP THE GAS. HE CAN'T KEEP UP, AND YOU CAN CRUSH HIM IF HE JUMPS IN FRONT.

Just as a note, if you're doing 65, the gas loss from windows and AC is roughly the same. At that point, you might as well keep the AC on.

Hey, at least it's not Davis-Besse! xd  

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

Thing with breaching slugs, is they are just like birdshot in slug form. It creates a nasty, but SHALLOW wound. They can't strike CNS, they can't cause too much organ damage. Sure, I hear "I doubt they'll want to continue with a six-inch crater in them!" Sure, they might not. That's also MAYBE only two inches deep. What if they DO want to continue? I much prefer "will" rather than "might". He can't very well continue with a disrupted CNS. 9 different wound channels, ******** yes.

Also, FLITECONTROL! Flite Control wads, by Federal, turn it essentially into a SLUG. A pre-fragmented slug. They keep patterns extremely tight, even further out. They're really cool. I'm using Fiocchi low-recoil cheap stuff (starting later today when it arrives), but I have a brick exterior, as do all the houses, and I'm not breaching 7 yards (and that's really pushing it)

A: I think you have a slight misunderstanding of exactly what a breaching slug does, how it works, and what it's made of.

B: Do you have ANY IDEA how hypocritical what you just said was?

Compressed powder, OR a plastic container that holds a powder. It's designed to break a lock with minimal backblast and minimal penetration through whatever is behind it. It does that well. It ******** SUCKS against people.

I feel compelled to point you towards Box 'O Truth again. The breaching slugs they tested destroyed two jugs of water. Anything that can punch that deep into an incompressible liquid is going to seriously ******** up a person.

Quote:

Let's see. PREGRAGMENTED SLUG. Compressed metal powder. Two different things. You have 9 pellets that maintain a bore-sized group at inside-the-home distances that penetrate as deep as they normally would, but in a centralized location. They spread slightly when they deform and yaw in the flesh. Then there is powder, that, as you stated yourself, DISINTEGRATES. It makes a nasty, shallow wound.

Flite control wads aren't available in any load bigger than "turkey". So what you're suggesting is essentially a breaching slug, except it comes apart on its own after a distance.

And that depends on your definition of "shallow". It's no flesh wound, it takes a while to come apart. It's just that once it's hit, it comes apart no matter what it's in, air or person. It's no good if you expect to be shooting through walls and into people, but if you're dropping it straight into a person it hits like a full slug for the first six inches or so.

I point ot BOTS. Two jugs of water is 12 inches of water penetration. In a direct comparison, that is 6" of penetration in ideal gel. HALF. That is the line between the two. He always calculates the gel penetration afterwards to show it. He doesn't use gel because it's more expensive, and it's very hard to keep consistent in Texas summers. Which is why it's usually used in a lab, by people such as Brassfetcher. (Oleg Volk is doing some of his newer photography!)

Again, this depends on what you consider "shallow". Gel is supposed to be a rough approximation of flesh and bone, right? I dunno about you, but my chest isn't six inches thick.

Quote:

Dude, you can't find FliteControl wads in anything but turkey? You're pretty ********' deprived with your sources. Look around.
Federal makes an LE 8-pellet 00 load with fliteControl
A 9-pellet full-power load
And then Vital-Shok 9-pellet full-power loads.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-federal-le-tactical-flitecontrol-8-pell-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-buckshot

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-federal-le-tactical-full-power-9-pell-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-buckshot

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-federal-vitalshok-flitecontrol-9-pell-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-buckshot

Hell, a member of THR did several tests.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=482930&highlight=flite+control

If the images are back up, there are comparative pictures between the FliteControl Wad and Vital Shok non-FC.

That's funny, Federal doesn't list any of those on their site. I saw Vital Shok, but it didn't proclaim a Flite Control wad on the landing page like all the bird loads did.

Quote:

The "wad" or more correctly the capsule, will penetrate deeper than any of the powder. Because it's powder. You can see the s**t on the board the lock was attached to.

Well yeah, that lock was solid steel. It was stopping .44s with no problem. No s**t it's gonna rip the hell out of a plastic capsule.

And it BROKE the Waterbox 'O Truth. Hydrostatic shock is a definite here. I see absolutely no reason why a breaching slug wouldn't break a man and end a fight, without the risk of dropping a lead slug through your wall and into your neighbor.

I would be interested to see how the capsule would hold up if tossed down a rifled barrel. If it didn't explode from the centrifugal force, you could keep it accurate at a decent distance. ...But that's just for me. I've got a good distance across the main room in my house. I wouldn't want to be using buckshot at that range.  

[Floyd]

Here is a far more compelling video showing why more than a few of these Judges are going back on the market.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGC1ajqSJGo

In short: the newest Judge plus Winchester #000 plus 2" barrel equals piss poor accuracy at 10 feet in this example. Wait until the end of the video for the review of the hits and misses.  

[Stoic Socialist]

3" MAGNUM allegedly only get 900 FPS out of the short barreled judge. That's 3-5, really soft, .33 pellets, at only 900 FPS. IMHO, that's not very promising. I'd rather have a .357/.38 than that.

The steel cased .410s are for better functioning in a saiga shotgun, IIRC.  

[Fresnel]

Floyd

Here is a far more compelling video showing why more than a few of these Judges are going back on the market.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGC1ajqSJGo

In short: the newest Judge plus Winchester #000 plus 2" barrel equals piss poor accuracy at 10 feet in this example. Wait until the end of the video for the review of the hits and misses.

So idiots are buying them? Because that's part of the design. The rifling is made to spread the shot as quickly as possible, so you don't just drill one hole with four pellets when you shoot a guy at arm's length.

And excuse me for saying so, but if you buy a gun with no clue as to its intended purpose, you're an idiot.  

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Summary?
Same as the first tests. Anything worth a damn against a person will zip right through several interior walls. The only thing going to stop them is stufs, well-built furniture, and a squishy torso.

EDIT:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm
That is another one, with two "walls" that aren't quite as far away.

There's no breaching slugs there. Breaching slugs are frangible. They physically DISINTEGRATE when they hit something. They fail to exist as a solid object by the time they hit the second wall. That's how they skirt the general rule of "big enough to kill, big enough to break through as many walls as you can give it".

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot25.htm

6" of flesh penetration, in a controlled setting. OH! And it penetrated 10 sheets of drywall. Hell, the wad did too.

Breaching slugs are just that. FOR BREACHING. Frangible ammunition was designed to prevent ricochets, or places such as an airplane. It does those pretty well. They still also make more shallow, nasty wounds.

I'll stick with my #00 and Hornady XTP.

That's the exact wall test I said was bullshit, because no real walls are 1" apart. If you put it in the "four walls" test you posted a few minutes ago, I'd bet money it wouldn't penetrate the fourth.

Frangible ammo was also supposed to prevent overpenetration. Which is funny, because breaching slugs are made to blow the lock off a door and not be lethal in the room beyond...

I thought you were a hardliner for "00 is overkill".

ETA: I think we need to never mention shotguns around each other again. xd

And no real walls are a single layer of drywall, either. Know anyone else doing ANY testing?

Oh hey, totally missed this post earlier.

I only know of two places that do that kind of testing, and Brassfetcher hasn't been paid to do breachers yet. If you're aware of more, do tell.

Quote:

If you watch the inventors, you'd think they invented frangible ammo for IPSA gamers. They show it off by shooting a steel plate from arms length. And then they show of a "shoot house", with multiple people in different rooms. It disintigrates when it hits a solid object. No ricochets. No wall penetrations (well...Drywall isn't cinderblock or steel. It's essentially paper)

And? All that means is a frangible slug will fall apart when hitting an exterior wall. Interiors are drywall, exterior has a layer of 1/4" plywood on it. Or, in Armas' case, a layer of sheet aluminum (I'd assume, at least. Depends on the kind of trailer).

Quote:

I like #1 and #4. You have more pellets in both, meaning more, and a wider range of, wound channels. More capacity to damage soft tissue, deeply, that is. They both meet FBI penetration standards. #1 is a b***h to find. Fiocchi was cheaper than the #4 loads. #0 is the best of all, but damn near doesn't exist anymore. I've never called #00 overkill, but others are MORE ideal. Actually, as well, the deepest penetration in gel they got out of 00 (even if it was just a single pellet) was farther than a lead rifled slug. Which pretty much caused an explosion on impact, and then penetrated a good 15" of gel while yawing, expanding, and generally making a big mess. Slugs are great choices if you can handle the shoulder beating, and are sure in your aim.

Alright, maybe I just remember wrong. You're right though... 00 is cheaper and more available than any other buckshot load, as far as I've seen them. Not that I look much... I don't own a shotgun, after all. razz  

[OberFeldwebel]

Kind of related.

A while back I saw an episode of cops with some guy that was going to off himself with his shotgun.
Police talked him out of it of course.

They unloaded the shotgun and put it on the hood of the patrol car, the guy had it loaded with target load.
That probably wouldn't have killed him right away, would have been bad, really bad.