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Actually, the religious views of the Founding Fathers were quite diverse. How do you know that they were devout Christians? Did you know them? I have an ancestor who was a founding father, and in his journals he never once even speaks of the bible.

How would it be total chaos without Christians or the word of God? Mass suicides? No hope? Are you KIDDING me? The world before Christianity did just fine. Churches are not the only service that provides help for the needs. The Salvation Army, though a religion in itself, does this. Soup kitchens, half way homes, etc etc. There are plenty of places that help people that are not affiliated with the church. It is not the church that helps these people. It's the volunteers. There will always be people willing to help out those around them, the church isn't the one who created hope.

So how is it you know that they were "devout". Knowing they were Christians is one thing, knowing the extent of that faith is another.

Of course things would be different. That doesn't mean things would be complete chaos or even bad. For all YOU know things could be BETTER without the Bible. As I have said, people functioned just fine without the Bible. Why do you assume that they could not now? What you are saying is implying that the Bible and the Word of God are the sole reasons for society being able to function.

Lets look at India, they are a PRIME example. Hindu's create 80.5% of the religious population, while Christianity makes up only 2.3%. India is quite a peaceful nation, and far more advanced in their colleges than even the United States. They have FAR less debt than the U.S. does and less war. They are doing BETTER than the U.S. on many counts, and the Bible plays little to no part in their country.

You assume too much. Who are you to say that it was only because of God that the Israelites took a stand? HOW do you know that they would still be slaves? Lets look at it from a different view. The people of Israel very much believed that everything was part of "Gods plan", and that they just needed to wait for him to save them. Perhaps if their God had never existed, they would have stood against their slavers much sooner. But, besides that point of view, there is no way for you to know that they would still remain slaves. This knowledge is beyond you, you are assuming a great amount.

I can only assume. I wasn't there. I didn't give interviews, duh. Were you there either? No. Unless you're a zombie. And zombies don't exist.

There wasn't much time before the Bible, you know. And for all YOU know it could be worse, far worse without it. And no, the Bible isn't the sole reason for a society to function on. I'm just saying that the basis of the U.S Constitution is Christian.

(No offense to any Indians on Gaia. This is a general idea.) India also has much more poverty. Also, even though they are a smaller country, they are more densely populated than the U.S. They claim homeless people as "untouchable". They have a stricter system that doesn't allow much room for advancement. But, I haven't studied India in a long time, so many facts I know may not be facts at all.

Again, I can only assume. I wasn't there and neither were you. The Israelites were impatient. They whined even though God provided for them. They also actually suggested to go back to slavery when they got stuck in the desert for a while. They thought that slavery was better than freedom, apparently. Besides, how do you explain a pillar of cloud guiding them by day and a pillar of fire by night?

Points can or cannot be true. It is a matter of opinion.

Science does point to God. Explain again how before molecules, an explosion happened out of nothing. Explain exactly how man was created, animals, birds, fish. There was no evolving involved. If there was, then shouldn't we already be some fantasy-fiction creature? Or animals changed drastically?

I do, however, say that this is possibly my last post in this thread. Some people are extremely stubborn (including myself). I don't want to offend anyone on accident.
I can't govern others' ways of thinking, but I can my own. Go ahead and believe what you do. At least I tried. heart

Also, this bit. Pitiful was quoting me, so your rude address should not be directed towards her.



Your point in stating this? This does not negate the fact that religions WERE present FAR before Christianity ever came around and those societies functioned quite well, thriving and growing.



lololol. I don't think YOU know what you're talking about. All years of B.C? Christianity didn't exist THEN. Ancient Rome, the Mayans. The Egyptians can be dated back to 2850 B.C., the Minoans to 3000 B.C., the Sumerians to 3200 B.C. The Egyptians were around from 2850 B.C. to 715 B.C., which adds up to a total of 2135 years. Christianity hasn't been around that long.

The Bible in it's "truest" form, yes. But were are specifically discussing the Christian Bible.



No, it is not. The words "Christians" "Christianity" "Christ" "Bible" (which is a Christian term, as the Jewish call their book the Torah), have been used multiple times by Sapphiranna.



This was the opening statement that brought on my half of the debate. It spoke specifically of Christianity and Christ.





I disagree. Actively trying to convert someone is harassment. I don't CARE who they think they're trying to save.



It's not any more pointless than trying to convert someone TO a religion. If they don't believe in it, you cannot make them. So because someone tries and converts a religious person into an atheist means they're simply trying to reinforce their superiority? No, I don't think so. Not say that it's right to do so, but I know plenty of people who try and "convert" people to being atheists because they simply feel that it is a waste of your life to put so much effort into something that doesn't exist. It is no better and no worse than when a religious person tries to convert them.

Why do you think atheists won't get what those who are religious will? There are some religions that go specifically AGAINST God. I think an atheist is more likely to get into heaven, or whatever you believe in. There are God believing faiths that feel all religions are correct, even those people who do not believe in God. Some religions feel that in the end, no matter what you believe, you ARE going to heaven, because that's what kind of God He is.




This is forcing YOUR ideas and beliefs onto others. Why do you have to be part of a religion and actively practicing to know and/or talk about it? Since WHEN do you have to "devout" your life to a religion to know/understand it? I have absolutely EVERY right to talk about WHATEVER religion I want to. Who are YOU to tell me I do not have this right? I am not "assuming" anything. What I have provided, I know for a fact. It has been proven. Just because I'm not a Christian doesn't make these things any less true. There are plenty of Christians who know NOTHING about what they follow, and there are plenty of atheists who understand the Bible than anyone I've ever met. You have no right to restrict my freedom of speech, and if that's how you feel, then the debate forum is NOT for you.





You honestly think you are the only person who has the level of acceptance that you do? I'm a practicing pagan, living with my mother-in-law at the moment. She a VERY devout Pentecostal. She goes to church twice a week, We get along great, often discussing our religions and various others. My grandparents raised me. He was raised Catholic and she is an atheist, both are very accepting of my religion. I have an Aunt who is the most die-hard Catholic you'll ever meet, but she accepts me and my religion. I have another aunt who is also Catholic, and accepts me for who I am. My fiancée is agnostic and is never faced with issues because of it. I went to a school where I was the ONLY pagan, and never had any issues. I actually gave tarot readings and palm readings during many classes. I was friends with many people whos parents were actually pastors, and they knew of my religion and accepted it. Not to mention I've always accepted all religions and these people.

Where did you find this information? Can you link something about it? I've heard it but would like to read more on it.

If someone asks you to leave them alone, and you refuse, it's harassment. When you are actively trying to convert people, you are trying to force them to see your point of view. That IS harassment. It doesn't matter how good your intentions are. When someone tells you to back off, and you don't...harassment, as I stated.

I know what an atheist is. These are not my beliefs. My statements were made based on another's statements. I was simply pointing out that there are people far less likely go get into heaven. That atheists are NOT necessarily the most likely.

You really need to look into other religions before you start saying things like "Heaven is mostly a Christian belief". No, it is not. There are hundreds of religions that believe in some form of "heaven". My beliefs included.

We don't know ANYTHING. Again, you are stating your beliefs as facts.




No. You don't.

I have not once even attempted to force my beliefs on anyone. I don't believe I've even given any details of my beliefs during this debate. I am in no way restricting your freedom of speech. I am simply debating exactly why you have no right, or evidence, to state the things you have said. This is a debate forum. You need evidence, facts. You are stating your opinions and beliefs as if they are hard facts. You claim that without Christianity and the Bible, there would be mass suicides, murder, immorality, etc etc. You have no basis for this assumption, nor have you been able to provide any kind of actual evidence to support it.

I'm not really sure what you mean about "lied to themselves". Also, there is always something new EVERYONE can learn about their religion, including you. Just because atheists do not believe in god, does not mean that they didn't once. Besides. This is a debate, it's the "factual stuff" that matters here.

Now, I'm going to review the bit that you said that originally started this.



I have stated that, in fact, the founding fathers religions were quite varied. I have also pointed out that you have no way of knowing the extent of their devotion.



I never really addressed this, but I don't really feel it pertains to the subject at hand.



I took personal offense from this. It was rude, and you assumed far too much in stating this. I have proven, with my example being India, that this is unfounded and false. I have also stated that it is presumptuous to assume that Christianity is the basis of all hope. I do not draw my hope from Christianity, nor do many Christians. There are plenty of devout Christians who draw hope from themselves, and their loved ones.



Again, very rude in your delivery. I have stated that there are plenty of foundations that help the poor or weak that are in no way Christian.

All of these initial statements have been addressed and dis proven. Not once in addressing these statements did I try to force my beliefs onto anyone. I provided facts. Next time you wish to open yourself up for debate, I suggest you keep it civil and leave out the rudeness, especially when you are addressing the guild captain.