Favourite altar/shrine object

[razielarcha]

I don't really have a shrine exactly. I'd prefer to have spots outside, in wooded areas to specific god/esses, but I live in the middle of a city currently sad

I do have this though. She has her own spot on a special shelf unit that I converted from a headboard. She sits on Sari and brocade fabric made to show her importance. As the description says, it's mainly a copy of the Catalhoyuk statue with bits of Willendorf Venus and a few other spots thrown in, but to me, it's the Freyja Ostara (Lady Ishtar to an extent also).  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

I've always associated Ostara mostly with Iðunn. Why Freyja?  

[razielarcha]

Sanguina Cruenta

I've always associated Ostara mostly with Iðunn. Why Freyja?

Most researchers usually associate Freyja with Ostara. Ostara, just in and of herself (from what we know of her) is a fertility goddess. Her feast/holiday is at the time of year that everyone is celebrating the coming of life back to the world and hoping for fertility and growth in their fields, livestock, and personal families. Very much one of the things Freyja was also supposed to be for. I also don't see how we would know so much about Freyja, and comments from historians saying she had a particularly strong following, and her not have her own celebration. There's also the thing that the names Frey and Freyja are not actually names, but titles. They mean "Lord" and "Lady" respectively and that would mean that Frey and Freyja would also have actual names to them as well.

I also hear/see a lot of similarities between the name Ostara and Ishtar/Astarte. Yet, by the legends that are left to us, Ishtar is much closer in description to Freyja. Both were goddesses of war and fertility, are/were mainly depicted in the company of two large felines, and both were of the second/earth/nature/Igigi pantheon rather than the air/Aesir/Anunna pantheon.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

razielarcha

Most researchers usually associate Freyja with Ostara.

I haven't found this myself. Which ones are you referring to? I should like to read their work. Most researchers I've read tend to dismiss it as an invention of Bede altogether or file it under "interesting". There's a connection with Austri the dwarf somewhere, too.

I ask for interest's sake. My connection with Iðunn is mostly UPG, and I accept it as such, though there are quite a few Heathens who tend towards the same. More than who tend towards associating her with Freyja, so understanding my own viewpoint, I was curious about that of others.

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Ostara, just in and of herself (from what we know of her) is a fertility goddess. Her feast/holiday is at the time of year that everyone is celebrating the coming of life back to the world and hoping for fertility and growth in their fields, livestock, and personal families. Very much one of the things Freyja was also supposed to be for.

Again, I find the connection with Iðunn much stronger, given the metaphors in Germanic myth (Sif and her hair, for example). Iðunn brings life back to the world, and youth, and happiness. She is, therefore, a much better fit, imo. Freyja gets her fertility day in May.

Of course, this is Bede we're talking about. There's been a lot of speculation as to whether or not he made it all up.

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I also don't see how we would know so much about Freyja, and comments from historians saying she had a particularly strong following, and her not have her own celebration.

Why? Loki doesn't get his own celebration. Frigg doesn't. Who you honour when is your lookout, really, save at Yule and Thorrablot. Besides, people often honour Freyja at Idis-thing, and at Walpurgisnacht. And May Day. It's not like she's missing out.

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There's also the thing that the names Frey and Freyja are not actually names, but titles. They mean "Lord" and "Lady" respectively and that would mean that Frey and Freyja would also have actual names to them as well.

Ostara's the name of a month, though.... Freyr's name may have been Yngvi, but there doesn't seem to be an equivalent for Freyja.

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I also hear/see a lot of similarities between the name Ostara and Ishtar/Astarte. Yet, by the legends that are left to us, Ishtar is much closer in description to Freyja.

It's nice that they have similarities, but they're not the same goddess. They're from very different cultures, after all. And different languages. Ostara I can't find etymology for, but Eostre is definitely Proto-Germanic in origin, and Astarte is Phoenecian. Outward similarities aren't indicative of common etymology. I'll think of a nice example, just because I like words, but it may take a little while so watch this space.  

[razielarcha]

Sanguina Cruenta

I haven't found this myself. Which ones are you referring to? I should like to read their work. Most researchers I've read tend to dismiss it as an invention of Bede altogether or file it under "interesting". There's a connection with Austri the dwarf somewhere, too.

I think Grimm also tried connecting them, but then, Grimm also admitted that he had a hard time distinguishing between goddesses. He did compare Freyja with Holle, I know that for certain. Jan De Vries I read was/is a big scholar for Germanic mythology, but I have yet to ever get my hands on his research. Mainly, it is UPG, but I still find some small bits of research in support.

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I ask for interest's sake. My connection with Iðunn is mostly UPG, and I accept it as such, though there are quite a few Heathens who tend towards the same. More than who tend towards associating her with Freyja, so understanding my own viewpoint, I was curious about that of others.

I can understand completely. As I said above, mine is a lot of UPG also.

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Of course, this is Bede we're talking about. There's been a lot of speculation as to whether or not he made it all up.

I'm currently trying to read my way through Grimm's Teutonic mythology. He supports their existence due to linguistic evidence. I think others tend to agree with him on those. He was a master at linguistics.

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Why? Loki doesn't get his own celebration. Frigg doesn't. Who you honour when is your lookout, really, save at Yule and Thorrablot. Besides, people often honour Freyja at Idis-thing, and at Walpurgisnacht. And May Day. It's not like she's missing out.

Loki was concidered too chaotic to put one's hopes in from what I understand. Frigg has celebrations. Usually in conjunction with other goddesses though. And true, it is all up to one's personal preference who or what they celebrate when. I just have a particular connection with her that I like to point out more than other people would. I'm usually more vocal about her because so many people out there consider her nothing but a divine whore.

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It's nice that they have similarities, but they're not the same goddess. They're from very different cultures, after all. And different languages. Ostara I can't find etymology for, but Eostre is definitely Proto-Germanic in origin, and Astarte is Phoenecian. Outward similarities aren't indicative of common etymology. I'll think of a nice example, just because I like words, but it may take a little while so watch this space.

Ostara comes from austr (old norse) or ôstar (old high german) and expresses movement towards the rising sun. (quoting directly from Grimm's Teutonic mythology here, Ostara appears in volume 1 page 290 0f the 4th edition) "Ostara, Eástre seems therefore to have been the divinity of the radiant dawn, of uprising light, a spectacle that brings joy and blessing"... Morning light in other words. I forget where I read it, but Ishtar was also a personification of the Morning Star, hence why one of her symbols was an 8 pointed star. Also, By way of chromosome mapping and linguistic/human migration history, it has come to light that the homeland of the Indo-European languages (and probably also their religion) was around the Kurgan plainor around the caspian sea. This area is very close to the middle east. It could be that the land of Surt mentioned in the Eddas might have been the remnant of a memory. Surtr could have been a personification of Sumeria.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

razielarcha

I think Grimm also tried connecting them, but then, Grimm also admitted that he had a hard time distinguishing between goddesses. He did compare Freyja with Holle, I know that for certain. Jan De Vries I read was/is a big scholar for Germanic mythology, but I have yet to ever get my hands on his research. Mainly, it is UPG, but I still find some small bits of research in support.

Eric de Vries appears to want to compare Freyja with Hel in this way - through Holle, I mean. He stretches it to breaking point and takes up far too much of his already thin book to do it. I've never been a fan of the Freyja = Frigg idea anyway, so his idea breaks right there, at the Freyja = Frigg = Holle point.

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I'm usually more vocal about her because so many people out there consider her nothing but a divine whore.

...what? What people are these?! How bizarre, I've never had such an interaction.

Although I suppose you could say she was a bit of one, given the whole thing with Brisingamen and the dwarfs. But "nothing but" is a bit of a stretch.

Of course, I feel the same way with people who think Loki is nothing but a chaos deity.

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Ostara comes from austr (old norse) or ôstar (old high german) and expresses movement towards the rising sun. (quoting directly from Grimm's Teutonic mythology here, Ostara appears in volume 1 page 290 0f the 4th edition) "Ostara, Eástre seems therefore to have been the divinity of the radiant dawn, of uprising light, a spectacle that brings joy and blessing"... Morning light in other words. I forget where I read it, but Ishtar was also a personification of the Morning Star, hence why one of her symbols was an 8 pointed star.

Dawn =/= morning star. Although it does lead more weight to the whole Ishtar = Aphrodite argument. Ostara, from your etymology, appears to have the same connection to the dwarf Austri as I mentioned from Eostre. I was going to cite Grimm myself, but decided he was too old a source. Still, he seems quite keen on the whole dwarf issue.  

[razielarcha]

Sanguina Cruenta

Eric de Vries appears to want to compare Freyja with Hel in this way - through Holle, I mean. He stretches it to breaking point and takes up far too much of his already thin book to do it. I've never been a fan of the Freyja = Frigg idea anyway, so his idea breaks right there, at the Freyja = Frigg = Holle point.

No, not Eric de Vries Jan de Vries. Though thanks for the heads up to avoid Eric de Vries.

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...what? What people are these?! How bizarre, I've never had such an interaction.

I started off in Germanic paganism thinking the title of this particular faith was Asatru. So, I spent a lot of time frequenting their pages. They (the ones I ran into anyway) are all for thumping their chests for the Gods, but have some pretty bad views of Goddesses.

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Although I suppose you could say she was a bit of one, given the whole thing with Brisingamen and the dwarfs. But "nothing but" is a bit of a stretch.

I see it more as she wasn't shy about sexuality. True, to modern standards she was promiscuous, but not really an out right whore.

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Of course, I feel the same way with people who think Loki is nothing but a chaos deity.

I've come across these people too. I don't think of him strictly that way, but I do use caution with him.

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Dawn =/= morning star. Although it does lead more weight to the whole Ishtar = Aphrodite argument. Ostara, from your etymology, appears to have the same connection to the dwarf Austri as I mentioned from Eostre. I was going to cite Grimm myself, but decided he was too old a source. Still, he seems quite keen on the whole dwarf issue.

*gaia needs a shrug smilie* too each his own. I know the connections are tenuous at best, but I guess UPG over compensates at this point as well.  

[Esiris]

Sanguina Cruenta

I've never been a fan of the Freyja = Frigg idea anyway, so his idea breaks right there, at the Freyja = Frigg = Holle point.

How do people who think that get around them being spoken two separately by Loki in the same work?

razielarcha

I see it more as she wasn't shy about sexuality. True, to modern standards she was promiscuous, but not really an out right whore.

If a whore is someone who trades their body for money, and she traded her body for jewelry, I don't really see the difference in a barter-based society.  

[razielarcha]

Esiris

How do people who think that get around them being spoken two separately by Loki in the same work?

The idea behind the theory is that Frigga and Freyja were originally one goddess but developed into different personas as faction tribes moved away from each other. Then at some point, these faction tribes came together again and combined their pantheons with what some believe to be two variations of the same goddess. The main support of this is that both names, Freyja and Frigga, could both mean Lady.

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If a whore is someone who trades their body for money, and she traded her body for jewelry, I don't really see the difference in a barter-based society.

Whores do it as their only means of income or profession. Freyja, if the story isn't meant to be metaphorical, did it because she wanted to, not because she needed to. And having sex to achieve an end isn't something that is solely her act. Othin sleeps with just about everything with a uterus and no one calls him out on it.

And I really need to go to bed after I'm done typing this paper. If firefox didn't have spellcheck, my posts would be nearly unintelligible right now.  

[Esiris]

razielarcha

The idea behind the theory is that Frigga and Freyja were originally one goddess but developed into different personas as faction tribes moved away from each other. Then at some point, these faction tribes came together again and combined their pantheons with what some believe to be two variations of the same goddess. The main support of this is that both names, Freyja and Frigga, could both mean Lady

Not very good support if you ask me.

I can see it now- a thousand years from now archeologists searching through old texts and finding two journals written by two different girls, each talking about their mother. "This Mo'ter must have been a powerful figure who was seen different amongst different tribes!"

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Whores do it as their only means of income or profession.

Huh. None of the whores I have known would say that.

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Freyja, if the story isn't meant to be metaphorical, did it because she wanted to, not because she needed to.

She wasn't going to get her necklace if she didn't.

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And having sex to achieve an end isn't something that is solely her act. Othin sleeps with just about everything with a uterus and no one calls him out on it.

People not calling Odin a whore doesn't mean he isn't one. wink  

[razielarcha]

Esiris

Not very good support if you ask me.

Not many people think it is either.

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Huh. None of the whores I have known would say that.
She wasn't going to get her necklace if she didn't.
People not calling Odin a whore doesn't mean he isn't one. wink

I still find it insulting that people want to call her a whore. If they really feel the need to point out her sex life they can use the word 'promiscuous'. 'Whore' is just degrading and insulting. Sadly, most of the Asatru guys that I ran into online were those types of people.

Oh, and Sanguina Cruenta, reading back to what I wrote last night I think I should explain a little better. I didn't mean that Ishtar and Ostara were exactly equal and decended from the same proto-religion. I was thinking along the lines that one might have been borrowed from the other (Indo-European from Sumerian or vice versa) much in the same way cultures will borrow traditions from their neighbouring cultures and put their own spin on it or languages will adopt foreign words into their vocabulary (loan words) and change the spelling or pronunciation a bit.  

[Esiris]

razielarcha

'Whore' is just degrading and insulting.

I don't think I agree with that for a couple reasons.

I know people who are very important to me who are trying to reclaim the word. I know people who find it humbling, rather than degrading. But those are just the emotional reactions some people have. (Kinky folks)

It can be insulting, but if it's insulting and true- I'm not sure what the problem is.

If I recall correctly, it has heavy connotations of adultery. Isn't that what she did? Cheated on her husband in order to get a treasure? Not all Norse pagans are like this- but most of the ones I have met have been really into these concepts of honor and truthfulness.

Tyr, Odin, Thor, Loki- all of them practiced deception in order to get what they want. They all paid their price too. They also all had to deal with insults calling attention to their mistakes.

I don't see why Freya would be an exception.

To me, the difference is how they seem to have carried those marks, both in stories and in UPG.  

[razielarcha]

You know, I find it amazing that other pagans are insulting another's god/desses when in another thread they were preaching to another member to not go off on Christians because it might offend someone.

No one knows the relationship status of Freyja and Oth. They could have been bound for eternity, or for a year and a day (which is a traditional hand-fasting time frame).

Just because you don't see eye to eye with one of my goddesses doesn't give you the right to slander her left and right. Treat others as you wish to be treated. Would you like me to continually insult one of your deities?

And just because you know a few people who are trying to "reclaim" the word doesn't mean it is in any way acceptable.  

[Esiris]

razielarcha

You know, I find it amazing that other pagans are insulting another's god/desses when in another thread they were preaching to another member to not go off on Christians because it might offend someone.

I tend not to insult gods. Mine or anyone elses.

But I also think looking at source texts where the gods insult each other gives an idea about how the people who recorded those myths feel about them.

If Loki can say "Hush thee, Freyja, a whore thou art,
and ay wast bent on ill;"

I'm not so worried about people repeating him.

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No one knows the relationship status of Freyja and Oth. They could have been bound for eternity, or for a year and a day (which is a traditional hand-fasting time frame).

I'm not familiar with Norse marriage customs, but the words Handfasting are from Middle and Modern English- so I would be surprised if the concept as it is today was found to be the same amongst the Old Norse.

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Just because you don't see eye to eye with one of my goddesses doesn't give you the right to slander her left and right. Treat others as you wish to be treated. Would you like me to continually insult one of your deities?

If you have just cause- feel free. *Shrugs* My gods aren't infallible.


As for treating others as I wish to be treated, well, I'm not Christian- so I really don't feel the need to live by the Golden Rule.

I try not to be a d**k, but I don't see disagreeing with someone and explaining why to be dickish.

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And just because you know a few people who are trying to "reclaim" the word doesn't mean it is in any way acceptable.

Seems to them it does.  

[razielarcha]

You should really take a history lesson. English, from Anglo-Saxon, is in the same language family as Old Norse/Icelandic. They also shared the same religion with minor variations.

As for The Eddas, Lokasenna may have mentions of other myths, but it doesn't mean it is infallible fact as to the individual gods and goddesses characters. You'll notice that every one of them are trying to make him shut up. He insults every single goddess saying they've slept around, even Sif who they considered the most pure. Even Ithunn was attacked as badly as Freyja. The reason they didn't defend themselves? They knew it wouldn't make a difference since all present knew the truth and it goes down to "Don't feed the Trollz."

And even if you are not Christian, I do seem to remember the Witches Rede on the front page of this guild. If you forgot:

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Bide the Wiccan Law ye must,
In perfect love and perfect trust.
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill
An' ye harm none, do what ye will.

What ye send forth comes back to thee
So ever mind the law of three
Follow this with mind and heart,
Merry ye meet, and merry ye part.

I'd say this also applies to you. And harm doesn't specifically mean bodily harm either.

I've already given 'promiscuous' as an acceptable word to use when referring to Freyja. Just because someone is trying to 'reclaim' something, doesn't give you authority to use it as you want. The rest of the world sees it as demeaning and insulting. DON'T USE IT. As for the word itself: link It has never been used in any other way than degrading so I really do not see how anyone could 'reclaim' it.