Proposal for using guild treasure-WE HAVE AN UPDATE!!!!

[Purple-eyed Dreamer]

mamarita

6. Paying to rearrange subforums isn't a good idea, but I will throw that one out to Panagrammic now anyway to see if there is a way he can give that to us

Illuminati sumus / adhus divinitus|
Praeditio maledictum / infernus rex foedus|

I'd love you forever C;

Hibernus tempus anni / ventorum furia|
Obscuritas naturae / aeterna tenebra|

 

[Oblat]

DGwar

This basically was what I was talking about for the most part.

Like I said I didn't read everything everyone else said. *shrugs*  

[ShadowsHeartBreak]

So, just as a FYI I have NOT read the previous pages/posts so this is just coming straight from the top of my head.

One thing that we will be sure to have to decide on and mention is what are we really going to be using the funds for? After we decide that then we can decide how much money is going to be needed from the treasury.

For example:

Quote:

Contests: 2.5k per month
Threads: 2.5k per month
Sub-threads: 2.5k per month
Events: 2.5k per month

Total allotment per month: 12k per month

We also need to determine who is going to be allowed access to the funds, be it two people or just one. To be honest I would say that President and Vice President should be the only two allowed to access the funds.

Another problem is going to be figuring out where we will put the money after it has been removed from the Treasury. Whether it will be held by the President or Vice President or placed into a dummy account in which only two people have the password.

Something else to consider is that we will need to figure out is how we will be able to keep putting gold back into the Treasury and how much will be needed because even though there may be a lot in there now, in say....6 months, there will be a huge dent in the pocket. If we want to be able to continuously take out money each month we have to put some back in otherwise we will run out.  

[Pilotslover]

ShadowsHeartBreak

Something else to consider is that we will need to figure out is how we will be able to keep putting gold back into the Treasury and how much will be needed because even though there may be a lot in there now, in say....6 months, there will be a huge dent in the pocket. If we want to be able to continuously take out money each month we have to put some back in otherwise we will run out.

I would think you'd put gold into the treasury the same way you do now ... confused

~

Topic-
I love the idea of paying to rearrange the subforums, I adore subforums within subforums (Ideal for RP guilds) but I'm not sure I like the idea of getting money back for deleting sub forums though.

Being able to customise the look of the guild is so basic you'd have thought Gaia would have added it years ago!  

[ShadowsHeartBreak]

Pilotslover

ShadowsHeartBreak

Something else to consider is that we will need to figure out is how we will be able to keep putting gold back into the Treasury and how much will be needed because even though there may be a lot in there now, in say....6 months, there will be a huge dent in the pocket. If we want to be able to continuously take out money each month we have to put some back in otherwise we will run out.

I would think you'd put gold into the treasury the same way you do now ... confused

~

I get your point about the current donation process but the problem is that if we are taking out 10k or more per month and getting in less than that then where does that leave us? After all, what is the normal rate of guild donation? 100-1k at most?  

[ShadowsHeartBreak]

nanieru

wingedcentaur

To help avoid abuse, I would suggest that all guild transactions would be a matter of public record, so to speak. A page that shows all transactions, a reason for them, etc. So that members can see if the gold is being used responsibly. No one would want to be a part of a guild that wasn't honest about their funds.

I second this 3nodding

This is actually a really good idea. I totally support it.  

[Pilotslover]

ShadowsHeartBreak

I get your point about the current donation process but the problem is that if we are taking out 10k or more per month and getting in less than that then where does that leave us? After all, what is the normal rate of guild donation? 100-1k at most?

I can't see how changing the method of donation would change that, people are going to donate the same amount no matter where it goes.

It's more like a debit account then a credit account, you can only take out as much as you put in making budgeting an important function of the guilds staff.  

[ShadowsHeartBreak]

Pilotslover

ShadowsHeartBreak

I get your point about the current donation process but the problem is that if we are taking out 10k or more per month and getting in less than that then where does that leave us? After all, what is the normal rate of guild donation? 100-1k at most?

I can't see how changing the method of donation would change that, people are going to donate the same amount no matter where it goes.

It's more like a debit account then a credit account, you can only take out as much as you put in making budgeting an important function of the guilds staff.

My point was not about changing the donation process at all, I'm trying to be practical by stating that if we continuously take out more gold than we have without trying to replenish then we'll do ourselves and others more harm than good. I don't want to make this about donations because that is not the problem at all, it's overspending beyond our budget that I'm worried about.  

[Pilotslover]

ShadowsHeartBreak

My point was not about changing the donation process at all, I'm trying to be practical by stating that if we continuously take out more gold than we have without trying to replenish then we'll do ourselves and others more harm than good. I don't want to make this about donations because that is not the problem at all, it's overspending beyond our budget that I'm worried about.

Which isn't something that Gaia can do anything about sweatdrop .

It would be the guilds own responsibility to manage their funds, if they have a transparent accounting system (As suggested by someone earlier) then this task will be very simple.

The Guild Captain would be the one to oversee everything (Their guild after all), they'd be the one responsible for making sure they have a budget and stick to it.  

[mamarita]

People, The issue isn't setting limits so much as how we are going to regulate how the funds are used and how to safeguard abuse. I think we have come up with some valid points.

Many guilds have megatreasuries and some have very little- like this one at the time moment has a tiny treasury because the guild mule has the gold and I am supplementing the treasury for announcements. And to be honest, I pay for the contests and just put everything on the mule account. That's how a lot of captains do it.

It seems we are now running around in circles with the same ideas.

And PL- why not get 1/2 the price of a subforum back if we sell it back to the bank? This guild, for example, has a couple of subforum slots that are now blank because they are no longer in use. We could use those funds for something else.

And I want to know- would we really use a guild HOUSE for anything? And could we really all get there at one time? I know that I have had problems with towns having more than 2 people in my house at one time. Oh and can we get a BIGGER house for guilds. Let's face it, those houses are small.

That's something the developers are going to have to look into also.

I would like to give this about another week and then finalize the proposal to send to Panagrammic.

And I did ask about rearranging subforums and am awaiting a reply from Panagrammic.  

[Celine Fiaro]

I feel that guilds should have the capability of purchasing specific "houses" in TOWNS that are larger, suited for many people. By investing more gold they can have several options of pre-rendered models (So that customization is limited, but still possible.)

The decisions can only be made/confirmed by a guild captain, it evades adding an "item" to the world, or ownership of an item to a specific party of the guild, while still benefiting everyone in the guild. I picture this as similar to "Ragnarok Online's guild castles", minus the daily treasure spawn.

This implementation would make more use out of the Towns system Gaia has, and puts more focus on the social aspect of them, rather than having a private home. All of the guild members could enter at any time, and nobody else is allowed in. You must be a member of the guild to enter. This also promotes the exclusivity of guilds in the already extremely open forum.

Why implement extremist new features when we could revitalize the ones that have been here for years?



The fees for these ideas should be rather high. Like, in the six-to-seven digit range to purchase the "real estate" and an extremely broad spectrum of costs based on interior designs.

Thoughts?  

[DGwar]

Strude

DGwar

This basically was what I was talking about for the most part.

Like I said I didn't read everything everyone else said. *shrugs*

I actually said it after you. razz

 

[Pilotslover]

mamarita

And PL- why not get 1/2 the price of a subforum back if we sell it back to the bank? This guild, for example, has a couple of subforum slots that are now blank because they are no longer in use. We could use those funds for something else.

Because I don't agree with anything that puts more gold into a system that already has too much in it.

Gaia will only approve this idea if it's a good gold sink, therefore gold must be lost into the system, whilst half the price back is all right it's not as good as whole cost plus half.

*big advocate for gold sinks*

Plus right now it's kind of pointless to put gold back into the guild account since it isn't going anywhere sweatdrop . Or should I say isn't going anywhere yet, until something is done to give guilds more to do it's a bit redundant having those funds at all.

I'd love the ability to transfer funds between guilds, I have a dead guild with gold in the account that could be used on another one, if Gaia were to charge a fee for this service (Like the 2% on the market place) for each transaction then it sinks some gold too.  

[Mysteh]

I didn't read every tiny word but I'm going to throw my 2 cents in based on what I did read. I definitely agree with only the Captain (& possibly Vice) being the only ones able to handle funds and full disclosure on all funds. You won't ever be able to prevent someone from attempting to abuse any system that allows them to donate/contribute/gift/send any gold or items to any other player because it is impossible to know who is a persons mule and who isn't. Making it so that only Captains (and possibly Vice's) could buy an item from a special shop as prizes still won't prevent them from utilizing any number of mules as prize winners for contests. Coupled with the fact that "gifting" items is not tracked or traceable at this time, to the best of my knowledge, it would be next to impossible to come up with ways to completely prevent theft and abuse.

However, even though it isn't perfect, full disclosure is a pretty hefty deterrent. If each and every transaction were:

A. Viewable by any and all guild members
B. Required the filling out of a form to complete the transaction (Reason for transaction, date, timestamp, sender etc)
C. Required the acceptance by the recipient like the trade window does to verify the recipient indeed got the item on their account so they could not come back and say they didn't
D. Limited to a capped amount of gold/capped item value (Say there was a store to buy prizes from, all prizes could be priced at no higher than the capped transfer amount so they would pass through the system)

The guild item store would have to be the only place guilds could purchase items so Captains (and/or Vices) cannot buy their own items from the MP to embezzle money or purchase any items from anywhere else to send as prizes to recipients preventing them from buying expensive items and rigging contests to get those items on their mules.

Since this store would probably contain items that aren't available elsewhere (tho it could feasibly contain some shop items that fall under the cap amount) you may want to consider making any items that are only available from the special guild store "soulbound" to eliminate inflation. If the items can't leave the account of the guild member they are sent to, there is no real value, artificial or otherwise.

The idea someone had of voting on an item before it can be released from the guild has some potential. Perhaps it could require the Captain, Vice and a minimum of 2 Crew to check a box from their accounts (sort of a bigger trade window that shows 4 boxes with the transfer info and who has signed off on it) authorizing the transfer if that isn't too difficult to code. But that also runs the risk of crew who disappear for months or years on end not being there so you would need to maintain a set number of active crew for this to work. Then, having all of this transfer information available for anyone to see and question say, on the front page of the guild so if anyone did try anything shifty, it would be highly visible.

Lastly, make ripping off your guild members a permaban offense.

The one thing that would let Gaia off the hook with all of this is to throw all responsibility for this onto the members. Leave it up to the guild members to be proactive in watching how the guild staff spend their money and if they see it is being misused or abused, they can:

A. Choose not to donate
B. Chose to donate knowing the risks
C. Chose to leave the guild
D. Choose to report the owner for fraud/theft of funds if they have adequate proof fraud/theft has occurred

... and if they stay, donate and aren't happy but do nothing to change their situation, it's on them and not Gaia admin.

These thoughts are with regards to purchasing/awarding prizes for/to guild members. The safest thing to do otherwise would be to simply stick with people's requests to give more options to change the face of the guild (colour, things that can be purchased towards guild customization etc) and only allow the money to be spent on those things and not transferred in any way, shape or form to other members.

I totally disagree with crew getting any sort of "automated" monthly paycheck for being crew. This would make every single person who doesn't already bug Captains to be crew becuz they want to be "important" or go on a "power trip" come out of the woodwork and beg to be crew so they could have a job and earn money becuz they are so poor and need help. No thanks.

However, if a Captain wanted to be able to pay his staff manually, I suppose, so long as it was completely disclosed to guild members that the staff got paid, they should be allowed to. Just so long as people understand that it is at the Captains discretion and not every guild will pay their staff. I honestly don't want the headache of people wanting to be crew just becuz they think they are going to get paid.