Putting the "Neo" Into Paganism

[Starlock]

Nihilistic Seraph

Christo Minaverus

So what your telling me is the fact that no religion in the course of its history ever changed? That everything stayed the same and didn't deter from its original path? I hate to break your bubble but you can check into the tons of different bibles out there for documentation on that one. In no way shape or form as i reconstructing anything. What i do is my own. Most of me beliefs happen to coencide into many pf the same as that of ancient religions and cultures. Its part of my old old soul. Calling it Neo Paganism implies that everything Im doing is different from that of old. That i have no connection to the past and practices I partake in when i actually do have a connection to them. No one can practice a religion the way it was along time ago, not even christianity. Frankly they have changed far more than My beliefs from whence they stemmed and if they don't Have to call themselves neoChristans Then forgive me If i just call myself a Pagan.

I think the distinction is that while Christianity has changed gradually over the years, and the splits do have their own names (Catholic, Protestant, etc). Recon isn't the same practice with a gradual change, it's picking up where the original followers left off thousands of years ago.

Yup. That's basically the difference. This one knows quite well thar religions evolve and change. But a practice going dead to be revived several hundred years later isn't the same thing as a religion that has been around CONTINUIOUSLY for that same amount of time. THAT is what makes it Neo; the massive break in the timeline. This break also results in imperfect knowledge of how they really practiced. While we can learn much from the texts that say, Egyptians and Greeks left for us, it is far from everything. Likewise, some cultural traditions left either very little or NO written records of their practices (Celtic recon for example has this problem).

Now, just because it is reconstructionalist (aka, Neo) doesn't mean that everything is new as you suggested, Christo. It DOES have a connection to the old practices, but it is not a DIRECT and UNBROKEN one. And as I said earlier, if you're going to claim some direct, unbroken line to ancient Egyptians or Greeks... a lot of people are going to call "bull s**t" on that.  

[The Bookwyrm]

Wow, there's been such a strong reaction against the word "neo" here. Like it's a dirty word, or implies that something is of lesser value because it's simply a resurgence and reorganization of something very old...

Strange how violently people can react to simple language...  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Starlock

Nihilistic Seraph

Christo Minaverus

So what your telling me is the fact that no religion in the course of its history ever changed? That everything stayed the same and didn't deter from its original path? I hate to break your bubble but you can check into the tons of different bibles out there for documentation on that one. In no way shape or form as i reconstructing anything. What i do is my own. Most of me beliefs happen to coencide into many pf the same as that of ancient religions and cultures. Its part of my old old soul. Calling it Neo Paganism implies that everything Im doing is different from that of old. That i have no connection to the past and practices I partake in when i actually do have a connection to them. No one can practice a religion the way it was along time ago, not even christianity. Frankly they have changed far more than My beliefs from whence they stemmed and if they don't Have to call themselves neoChristans Then forgive me If i just call myself a Pagan.

I think the distinction is that while Christianity has changed gradually over the years, and the splits do have their own names (Catholic, Protestant, etc). Recon isn't the same practice with a gradual change, it's picking up where the original followers left off thousands of years ago.

Yup. That's basically the difference. This one knows quite well thar religions evolve and change. But a practice going dead to be revived several hundred years later isn't the same thing as a religion that has been around CONTINUIOUSLY for that same amount of time. THAT is what makes it Neo; the massive break in the timeline. This break also results in imperfect knowledge of how they really practiced. While we can learn much from the texts that say, Egyptians and Greeks left for us, it is far from everything. Likewise, some cultural traditions left either very little or NO written records of their practices (Celtic recon for example has this problem).

Now, just because it is reconstructionalist (aka, Neo) doesn't mean that everything is new as you suggested, Christo. It DOES have a connection to the old practices, but it is not a DIRECT and UNBROKEN one. And as I said earlier, if you're going to claim some direct, unbroken line to ancient Egyptians or Greeks... a lot of people are going to call "bull s**t" on that.

Considering that the jews that went underground after most of them were kicked out of Rome last most of their faith after only 500 years, I don't think anything longer has much of a chance to stay accurate...  

[Starlock]

Gypsy Blue

Wow, there's been such a strong reaction against the word "neo" here. Like it's a dirty word, or implies that something is of lesser value because it's simply a resurgence and reorganization of something very old...

Strange how violently people can react to simple language...

Well, I have read/heard in other places that those more appropriate called Neopagans sometimes object to that usage because it supposedly has negative connotations. I haven't really understood why very well though I think this thread has helped me understand it a bit better. "Neo" can imply wholely new, mish-mash, hodge-podge, less-than-authoritative, fad-phenomena, lacking a solid basis, etc. My mind doesn't share these associations at all. You could also, instead of being very negative about it, associate Neo with new, fresh, revitalized, reincarnated, progressive, foward-looking, etc.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

I think it's also due the the idea that we live in a very transient culture. If you look at all the artistic periods, the time between the switches shortens progressively each period. By now, the "in-style" is completely fluid. People don't want to associate their chosen faiths with a time period like this where everything is changing so fast.  

[The Bookwyrm]

I'm not sure if the pace of change in our current culture is so much an influence on the reaction as are the negative connotations of the word in association with a system of belief or a faith. There are many "new" faiths popping up and thriving. For me, at least, the violent opposition really does seem to be against the idea of being "new".

Paganism itself is an old idea, and it has a very rich history and set of traditions associated to it. If the speed of our culture would have any impact, it would almost stand to reason that because things change so quickly, people are left feeling unconnected and Paganism seems to offer a sense of connection. But only in the ancient traditional sense? Some people are drawn to it, I think, because it's being toted as being so ancient, as a way of connecting to our prehistoric roots; I know I was seduced by notions like that when I first started, feeling like I as connected with something older than me by millions of years, or thousands of years, or even hundreds of years. Maybe I'm just jaded now, but I see all of that as pure fluff; the systems that exist today aren't ancient, they're rooted in the ancient. The practices are all modern creations.

What bothers me is the insistance on the part of some people that the new is bad, and that all of what we term paganism is really very ancient. Are we really that insecure as a movement that we have to base our validity on such outlandish claims? And do we really expect society, as a whole, to be naieve enough to believe that?  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Personally, the sense of age I get, is that in connecting to the Divine, you're connecting to something that's been in existence seen the universe.  

[The Bookwyrm]

Nihilistic Seraph

Personally, the sense of age I get, is that in connecting to the Divine, you're connecting to something that's been in existence seen the universe.

And that's what it should be about, not that the tradition that you practice dates back to time immemorable. So long as it's meaningful, what does age have to do with it?  

[Starlock]

The note about ages of religions and basing histories off false historic foundations reminded me of a podcast I listened to recently. I think it was Deos Shadow (or maybe Lance and Graal... those are the only two I listen to at the moment) that braught up how any religion that uses false historical bases will at some point encounter problems. When your historical foundation is cast into doubt, suddenly the whole system becomes cast into doubt. That sense of rooted tradition can be very important for people. Perhaps that's why the notion that the Jesus story is based off Egyptian mythology (as opposed to actual historical events) isn't a popular one among Christians either.

I find myself wondering what would happen if old practitioners of any religion, be it Pagan or otherwise, witnessed what we call practice today. whee  

[The Bookwyrm]

Starlock

The note about ages of religions and basing histories off false historic foundations reminded me of a podcast I listened to recently. I think it was Deos Shadow (or maybe Lance and Graal... those are the only two I listen to at the moment) that braught up how any religion that uses false historical bases will at some point encounter problems. When your historical foundation is cast into doubt, suddenly the whole system becomes cast into doubt. That sense of rooted tradition can be very important for people. Perhaps that's why the notion that the Jesus story is based off Egyptian mythology (as opposed to actual historical events) isn't a popular one among Christians either.

I find myself wondering what would happen if old practitioners of any religion, be it Pagan or otherwise, witnessed what we call practice today. whee

I'm sure they're rolling in their graves. xd  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Starlock

The note about ages of religions and basing histories off false historic foundations reminded me of a podcast I listened to recently. I think it was Deos Shadow (or maybe Lance and Graal... those are the only two I listen to at the moment) that braught up how any religion that uses false historical bases will at some point encounter problems. When your historical foundation is cast into doubt, suddenly the whole system becomes cast into doubt. That sense of rooted tradition can be very important for people. Perhaps that's why the notion that the Jesus story is based off Egyptian mythology (as opposed to actual historical events) isn't a popular one among Christians either.

I find myself wondering what would happen if old practitioners of any religion, be it Pagan or otherwise, witnessed what we call practice today. whee

That reminds me, ever heard of Joseph Campbell? He was this psychologist, sociologist guy, but he did a lot of work on archtypes. In my Dad's library, I found his book "The Masks of God." There's a whole section on "The Miracle Child" theme; that of the child which is born to miraculous circumstances, is outcasted, and then returns to claim his birthright and bring around x change.

But the ancients would probably try to invoke the Gods to give us all a nice round smack upside the head. biggrin  

[The Bookwyrm]

Miracle children are popular stories, probably one of the most common themes you're ever apt to find in folklore and mythology, as is the promised return of the hero in a time of need. What's most interesting to see with these sorts of myths is the way we've demonstarted as a culture that we feel cut off and denied something that ought to rightfully be ours, but we're going to let someone else come and get it back for us.  

[Goddess Hekate]

The way I see it, mythology is build like a book.
first thing I do when I need to make a storyline? I look around to find inspiration in the real world.
hmm pregnant women with who claim to being virgins! Ah miracle from a higher entity! The child is destinied to [...] (then we have the classical fairytale outline - home->away->back)
Even this:
"I trip over my shoes everyday! It must be the [...] creatures"
"My 9 year old cow ain't givin' milk no more! A witch is about!"

Not that I'm saying that ... creatures don't exist...

It's like saying that fiction isn't REAL, of course it is everything you can think up has roots in reality somewhere.

personally I don't care for the neo prefix, paganism is paganism whether it is something that I pulled together for myself five minutes ago or an ancient 2000+ years old religion.  

[TreasureFinder]

I think it's all how you consider yourself. I think of myself as neo-pagan, but some people imagine that they are practicing ancient traditions that have never been altered. maybe best just to let people perceive their religion however they want. thats what its about, rite?  

[TreasureFinder]

Goddess Hekate

The way I see it, mythology is build like a book.
first thing I do when I need to make a storyline? I look around to find inspiration in the real world.
hmm pregnant women with who claim to being virgins! Ah miracle from a higher entity! The child is destinied to [...] (then we have the classical fairytale outline - home->away->back)
Even this:
"I trip over my shoes everyday! It must be the [...] creatures"
"My 9 year old cow ain't givin' milk no more! A witch is about!"

Not that I'm saying that ... creatures don't exist...

It's like saying that fiction isn't REAL, of course it is everything you can think up has roots in reality somewhere.

personally I don't care for the neo prefix, paganism is paganism whether it is something that I pulled together for myself five minutes ago or an ancient 2000+ years old religion.

i agree, but at the same time, some people like to be recognized as being a new group, because many of those poor uneducated people picture pagans(alliteration!sorry) as being smelly witchs with drooping nipples.