In the beginning...

[Mileena Chardonnay]

stare


And now you know why you're an unbeliever...  

[Bellabie]

mad
No.  

[scintillio]

Actually, i believe what Bellabie was saying...

either we exist or we dont. I dont believe that there is this 'existing or not existing' we can't do both at the same time or else there would only be this perpetual limbo of nothingness.

Besides, the universe cant be ALL so complicated, or else humans wouldn't exist, beause we can only learn, do and acheive so much. ninja I know we're interconected to everything around us in some way, shape or form, but c'mon...  

[Mileena Chardonnay]

And WHY can't we do both at the same time? For that matter, how can we consider time when time itself has so many implications? We even have that Time thread with which to aid the discussion! At the same 'time' could very well mean many things! And I despise words like 'can't'. Because I know that all occurences have even an infinitesimal chance of occurring, so nothing is technically impossible, words like 'can't' bear little meaning. Humans can only do so much, yes, but we can also say that we may head down a path which ends in the sacrifice of humanity, the evolution of our collective race into something far greater... and/or far lesser... And we only know firsthand of the limitations of THIS realm, and attempt to orient ourselves by that which we can sense readily and immediately, so we are easily blinded to the fact that there are things outside of ourselves. We are NOT interconnected with EVERYTHING around us (at least not in this realm) because we cannot immediately sense everything else! Yet there are those who have learned to think beyond the immediate, the obvious, and the regular. Some, like me, have a philosophical or scientific view of beyond. Others believe in life on other planets. And a great portion of this planet believes in some higher being or beings who run everything. If you are saying nothing lies beyond, then say it proudly, joyfully, and peacefully. After all... ignorance is supposed to be bliss... Or so I've heard.
*Storms off, cloak flailing in the wind behind him, no hesitation. All is silent as he leaves, nobody knowing what to make of that which has just occurred.*  

[Bellabie]

Pah!
"No one knowing"
Hardly so.
You are upset by words like "can't" but write that "we are NOT interconnected with EVERYTHING." Why is it that you can say, in one instance, that anything is possible and in the next say that something simply cannot be true?
This is hypocritical, I think.
You, sir, disagree, but overreact.
We may exist. We may not. We ought not do both at once because that is rather challenging to do with direct opposites. In some cases, this can occur. You may be living and dying, and likely are. You may even be dead and alive if you follow a spiritual belief or the thought that you are no more than it which is echoed on through the recycling processes of nature.
You speak, friend, as though you refuse all but your own beliefs but say you are open.
Let's take a moment to recognize that what began all of this distress was a mere suggestion to start at existence and go on from there. Can we not give that a go, first, rather than leaping at each others' throats?
b  

[scintillio]

Mobius Nightshade

And WHY can't we do both at the same time? For that matter, how can we consider time when time itself has so many implications? We even have that Time thread with which to aid the discussion! At the same 'time' could very well mean many things! And I despise words like 'can't'. Because I know that all occurences have even an infinitesimal chance of occurring, so nothing is technically impossible, words like 'can't' bear little meaning. Humans can only do so much, yes, but we can also say that we may head down a path which ends in the sacrifice of humanity, the evolution of our collective race into something far greater... and/or far lesser... And we only know firsthand of the limitations of THIS realm, and attempt to orient ourselves by that which we can sense readily and immediately, so we are easily blinded to the fact that there are things outside of ourselves. We are NOT interconnected with EVERYTHING around us (at least not in this realm) because we cannot immediately sense everything else! Yet there are those who have learned to think beyond the immediate, the obvious, and the regular. Some, like me, have a philosophical or scientific view of beyond. Others believe in life on other planets. And a great portion of this planet believes in some higher being or beings who run everything. If you are saying nothing lies beyond, then say it proudly, joyfully, and peacefully. After all... ignorance is supposed to be bliss... Or so I've heard.
*Storms off, cloak flailing in the wind behind him, no hesitation. All is silent as he leaves, nobody knowing what to make of that which has just occurred.*

gonk how is believing in something no one can see or touch, not 'outta the box'? or 'philosophical'? ha! yes it is. Just believeing in something that no one can actualy prove is quite different and 'out there', to say the least.

but i still believe that at some point, 'existing and not exisiting' fizzles out---and doesn't make any sense. Some where, this logic can not endure. ...i just wish i knew how to prove it.  

[Bellabie]

I agree.

Just this evening I thought of a phrase pertaining to religion and science.
"One may believe he who cannot be proven wrong or he that has been proven right."  

[scintillio]

Bellabie

I agree.

Just this evening I thought of a phrase pertaining to religion and science.
"One may believe he who cannot be proven wrong or he that has been proven right."

Glad to her it. And that quote is something...i like it a lot 3nodding  

[Mileena Chardonnay]

Ah, and therein lies my point! I can bear such opinions and be against them at the same time! Hypocrisy, a thing teenagers have a keen eye for pointing out, by the way, is just one of the many ways my theorem works! But I speak not of both occurences existing in this universe, that is the point you fail to grasp! Bellabie, you are female. But in another dimension, you may be male. Considering both dimensions exist and flow at the same time, or close enough to it, considering the multitude of timeline-based dimensions, you technically can be male and female at the same time, though, albeit, not in the same place, provided no interdimensional travel or altered physics interferes.

As for that quote, Bellabie, it is on the borderline. It pits the Existentialist against the Realist, the Religious versus the Scientific, and the Abstractionist against the Functionalist. While I appreciate the fact that this is a debate forum, I dislike this bloodthirstyness in which we bark at each other in pride and frustration. Let us not let this competitive atmosphere ruin our friendship.  

[Bellabie]

You and your "dimensions..."

I didn't pit anyone against another. I merely made a comparison of my views. I never said that one was wrong or right, I did but point at a pattern.

Perhaps I cannot grasp chaos, but you cannot grasp pattern.

I acknowledge hypocrisy, but that is a different sort of situation, I believe. A hypocrite applies things to others without acknowledging it in themselves (generally negative traits). Now, before you say that I am only noting on what I see in my own "dimension" (ugh), please notice that this is because it is what I am able to base my observations on. For all that we know, if there are such alternate realities, then I may be nonliving or non-existing and so-on in others, also.

I appreciate your willingness to acknowledge (do forgive the redundancy) both the disagreement and the floor. I think no less of you because of the said disagreement. In fact, I think that your demonstration of competence is most enviable.
I apologize if I've been upsetting to you. I become impassioned in debate. I've done my best not to be arrogant, but if I have "come across" as such, do tell me so that I may alter what I've said.
b  

[Mileena Chardonnay]

Bellabie, do as I do for this one moment and live life without regret. You may have said something. However, we both learned from it and you were trying to get your point across. No need to fix what is not broken.

As for the limitations of your observation, while you can only acquire definite facts from the dimension in which you exist you, like all other humans, have some capacity for imagination. I ask not that you find fact in dimensions which you cannot see or comprehend readily, but to merely imagine what could be, to go beyond what is and to envision that which never was.

As for the inability to grasp pattern, I realize that patternss exist all around me. I just bear a preference, and try to ackowledge the lesser opinion when the greater is presented as almost godly. You people are so fixed on your patterns that I must remind you of what else exists out there.  

[scintillio]

(this is just a BIT off topic)
i recomend that you both take up this anime series i'm watching---its not like any other ive seen.

its called Noein, and they speak, in depth, about dimentional theories...im curious as to who will argue with them. Espeically in some episodes.

The main focus was on how, at every second, our 'dimentions' split apart, and become seperate onto them selves, recalling the same events as we live now, but with differen out comes and chances. Its not exactly about 'parallel worlds' but there is a smaaall bit on that. Its mostly dealing with the smallest particles of matter and how, in the animation, they use them to travel the lengths of time---

its too complcated for me to explain well, but i'd give it a shot. It is a good watch.

the one thing i kind of focused on was how, as long as we have 'observers' *ie. humans* in each dimention, it does exist, weather or not it can be physically proven---just as long as it can be seen. By being 'seen', this finalizes its place in time and space...

Does any one agree/disagree with that? cause im slightly borderline, myself...  

[Mileena Chardonnay]

And yet, one could argue that Santa is not seen but still existent, that assassins are not seen but still existent, that God is not seen but still existent. Czarina poses an Existentialist point, open for controversy.  

[scintillio]

Mobius Nightshade

And yet, one could argue that Santa is not seen but still existent, that assassins are not seen but still existent, that God is not seen but still existent. Czarina poses an Existentialist point, open for controversy.

*rubs hands together* hahaha! controversy~ I's like it!

But maybe these people have been seen by some one, and im thinking as long as it was seen just by one---it does vaildate its existence, as the theory goes...  

[Bellabie]

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with your reference...
b