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 Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:49 pm
Ratri_Cat Ratri_Cat XeroRyn To ratri..tell me what you know before i could say anything
Well I'll tell you what I know. Most of it is from books. I only have one book with me atm
it's called:Muhammad and Jesus; A comparison of the Prophets and their Teachings, buy William E. Phipps.
That book I like because it provides and objective view on the matter. Not pro or anti Muslim or pro or anti Christian.
I'm basing what I know off of History. I am in no way trying to undermine your belief system.
-what is done at the Kaba is from pagan worship. Pagan Arabs were known for their sun and moon worship as well as stone worship.
-there is no historical evidence that supports that Abraham had anything to do with the Kaba. And don't try and talk about Jacob, who erected a stone altar in Bethel....where he did it isn't historically/geographically close to where the Kaba is.
-there was another monotheistic, but pagan, religion that came before islam, and that was Zoroastrian...the night ride accounts are disturbingly similar.
-the hajj has paganism roots. see Pagan Islam sources for more information. This is one of the better online sites that I have. the other one I have has a distinct anti-Muslim tone. This is actually part of a book.
this is my other online source:Pagans and Islam
I mean, I could dig up more if you want, but i'm not here to write a paper nor to discredit the faith in as many ways possible. Aside from the Prophet's ride, most of what I'm talking about is historical progress of religion.
And I know Christianity has some pagan roots; so anyone who wishes to criticize my faith, you're beating a dead horse. Just don't bring it up. I'm here to answer Xero's question.
OH I forgot to add this source! Now before you go out and claim that it is anti-Muslim propaganda, PLEASE LOOK AT THE SOURCES THEY USE TO BACK UP THEIR STATEMENTS. And then make an argument based on that. And I don't think that the argument "it's not from a Muslim site" is a viable one, for anyone who wants to argue with me about my sources. I'm willing to accept criticism for my sources, but something CONSTRUCTIVE AND AN EXPLANATION WHY.
this source: The pagan origin of the word, "Allah"
...kit ugye verekszik részére? kay...now one thing i want to say is u also knew that christianity also have its own relationship with paganism right? everyone can claim and say anything... n if really islam isalready from the previously pagan believe why is hard for the pagan to accept islam...because what we believes is the previous arabs worship the berhala and islam is a derivation from the teaching of abraham so yeah...we do have connection from the previous teaching that has changed by the people into pagan that is why islam came to change it back....as we also believe nasran( christianity) is a bit from the jew so when you claim that....their is nothing wrong with it and in islam ( i dont have the hadith or citation coz im not good at it but there is believe me) islam is a religion since adam....only now we use the name islam.... n every prophets that were send for us is asking us to worship Allah (g0d) now if you want to know we believe christianity and jew is also from Allah is just the way we believe in it is different now what wrong is after a period of time islam was changed by human error since adam...therefore each prophet came to correct it back...to correct that there is only one god...no trinity concepts, yes Allah is from the word god and we have 99 names to call HIM
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:42 am
XeroRyn kay...now one thing i want to say is u also knew that christianity also have its own relationship with paganism right? everyone can claim and say anything...
I KNOW THAT CHRISTIANITY HAS PAGAN ROOTS. You're telling me something I already know and have accepted. In fact, so does Judiasm. Just because a faith has pagan roots does not mean it is an invalid religion. The term "pagan" only recently became a negative term. In fact, it was first utilized by the Romans to scoff at anyone who continued to worship the "Old gods". My point being, religion is not a new concept. New religions build upon old ones.
History has proved itself to do that. My claim is based on Historical events and similarities...you might just say the anthropology of religion. XeroRyn if really islam isalready from the previously pagan believe why is hard for the pagan to accept islam...because what we believes is the previous arabs worship the berhala and islam is a derivation from the teaching of abraham so yeah...we do have connection from the previous teaching that has changed by the people into pagan that is why islam came to change it back....as we also believe nasran( christianity) is a bit from the jew
Bit of a straw man argument, especially when you consider the MILITARY action taken against them by Muhammad.
Plus, paganism has existed for, *cough* a LONG TIME. Longer than Judiasm, longer than Christanity, and certainly longer than Islam. if some random guy came up with a revelation saying my ancient beliefs were wrong and his new belief is right and the only way, I'd be pretty reluctant to accept it to be honest. I don't blame the pagans for being reluctant to accept Islam.
Incorporating pagan beliefs and modifying them to fit the religion isn't a new concept...it's as old as time. Everybody does it. Muhammad is no exception.
Same thing the rest of us [Christians and Jews] don't readily accept or convert to Islam. You have roots, but you totally changed the message. You may call it "improvement" but the rest of use say Muhammad "changed"God's message.
In fact, there's a record of why you guys face mecca. Originally, it was Jerusalem, but Muhammad was ticked off at a particular Jewish tribe, and decided to face Mecca instead.
>.> abraham wasn't even jewish. he had just turned away from his poltheistic ways. His descendents were known as Hebrews because they decided to follow Yahweh.
And we know that Christaninty comes from Judiasm. We claim roots in Judiasm and many of our religious rituals are similar to that of Jews. And our Church calander is based off the Jewish lunar calander.
-_- and it's not like the Qu'ran is exactly consistent in faith tolerance or equality of females.
"Men are in charge of women because God has so ordained and because they spend of their wealth to to suppport women. Good women are obedient, protecting their unseen parts as Guard has guarded them. As for those whose disobedience you suspect, admonish them and send them to separate beds and beat them. If they cease their insubordination, take no further action against them "(4:34)
Historians have claimed that while Muhammad did raise the status of women in some ways....he decreased their status in others, particularly in movement and inheritance laws. Pagan beuodin women were free roaming people and had less restrictions in some ways than in Islam. I wouldn't convert from paganism to Islam, I know back then. There wasn't much incentive to convert.
XeroRyn so when you claim that....their is nothing wrong with it and in islam ( i dont have the hadith or citation coz im not good at it but there is believe me) islam is a religion since adam....only now we use the name islam....
You guys believe that Islam has existed since Adam came around. Nobody else does. Not the Jews, not the Christains, nobody else. It's a purely Islamic concept. What I'm talking about is coming from an objective source: HISTORY as the secular world knows and studies it. You're going around in circles by saying this. This does not prove a point at all. If you're going to have a better claim, then use history and something I believe in. I don't believe in Islam, I don't believe in it's teachings. So right now what you're telling me is utter crap. Make a better defense for your faith.
XeroRyn n every prophets that were send for us is asking us to worship Allah (g0d)
Incorrect. Prophets were sent because Israel had strayed from its path. They were not only divinely inspired, but also influenced by the world at the time. Take the prophet Amos for example. He was considered the first universalitst and was believed to be influenced by some Assyrian philosophy. He warned Israel that God could be with othe nations, even their enemies. That God could be everywhere, not just restrained within Israel. XeroRyn now if you want to know we believe christianity and jew is also from Allah is just the way we believe in it is different
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends of one another and whoever seeks their friendship becomes one of them. God does not guide such wrongdoers" (5:51)XeroRyn now what wrong is after a period of time islam was changed by human error since adam...therefore each prophet came to correct it back...to correct that there is only one god...no trinity concepts, yes Allah is from the word god and we have 99 names to call HIM
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:51 am
.... can any one provide me a link to paganism? i just want a clear concept of who they are? about their culture traditions and all that stuff? that will be really nice.
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:50 pm
tassan .... can any one provide me a link to paganism? i just want a clear concept of who they are? about their culture traditions and all that stuff? that will be really nice. tassan, read my first long post to Xero about Islam and paganism. Better yet actually read the WHOLE POST. I have all the links in there.
...kit ugye verekszik részére?
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:26 am
now Allah is god no matter how you call Him..now when we say Allah...our believe is there is only one god and we call him Allah like in english god, in arab allah, in my language tuhan, in other language there is more
..and your verse 5:51 is part of it...why dont you read the whole surah al maidah please
and i didnt say your religion is invalid as it also pagan root dotn be emotional
now as a Muslim ive been taught to accept other religion...and except Christianity and judaism is from Allah..god or whatever you calling HIm the almighty
we only saying your religion has changed by time and community that is all
read the continuing of surah al maidah please
abraham yes he aint judaism but still he believe in one god...as i said before fundamental of islam is all about one god now read our story of abraham....please
now can you study the situation of community of Arabs before Muhammad saw came please? before you say anything
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:04 pm
XeroRyn and i didnt say your religion is invalid as it also pagan root dotn be emotional XeroRyn we only saying your religion has changed by time and community that is all
We also found out that taking things literally by the bible is not in the best interests of fellow human beings. Like slavery. Literal interperetation of the bible confirmed such actions. Literal and twisted translations lead to bad things. Not taking things literally has done wonders. Maybe you guys should do the same and have less of an issue with fundamentalist Muslims. Our Christian fundamentalists are just annoying; yours, however, are quite violent, more than ours.
XeroRyn abraham yes he aint judaism but still he believe in one god...as i said before fundamental of islam is all about one god now read our story of abraham....please XeroRyn now can you study the situation of community of Arabs before Muhammad saw came please? before you say anything
I provided the links and all you talked about how people were Muslim since Adam and something along those lines.
I provided links and evidence that Islam has pagan roots in my previous posts. What the hell else do you want?
Online book of pre-Islamic culture
Pagan Islam website #1
Jewish evidence
You haven't actually given me any counter evidence. And if you're not going to accept what I give you simply because it's not from a Muslim site, then I have no reason but to believe that you are close-minded, pig-headed man. When you have reputable and non-reputable sources spouting out the same damn thing about history....it kinda makes you wonder.
Arabian Religions of the Pre-Islamic world
oh, here's an argument presented in another forum which was interesting: Pagan Islam the guy is getting his sources from pretty neutral...ACADEMICALLY inclined sites. Are you going to go against history?
I've already provided you prior links on the matter, and here's more to establish my claim. Quit walking in circles and give me a straight answer. Either accept that Islam had pagan roots or come up with historical proof, NOT MUSLIM THEOLOGICAL PROOF that Muhammad came up with these concepts on his own and was inspired solely by Allah (who was known as a moon-god in ancient arabia wink )
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Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:57 am
Ratri_Cat XeroRyn and i didnt say your religion is invalid as it also pagan root dotn be emotional XeroRyn we only saying your religion has changed by time and community that is all
We also found out that taking things literally by the bible is not in the best interests of fellow human beings. Like slavery. Literal interperetation of the bible confirmed such actions. Literal and twisted translations lead to bad things. Not taking things literally has done wonders. Maybe you guys should do the same and have less of an issue with fundamentalist Muslims. Our Christian fundamentalists are just annoying; yours, however, are quite violent, more than ours.
XeroRyn abraham yes he aint judaism but still he believe in one god...as i said before fundamental of islam is all about one god now read our story of abraham....please XeroRyn now can you study the situation of community of Arabs before Muhammad saw came please? before you say anything
I provided the links and all you talked about how people were Muslim since Adam and something along those lines.
I provided links and evidence that Islam has pagan roots in my previous posts. What the hell else do you want?
Online book of pre-Islamic culture
Pagan Islam website #1
Jewish evidence
You haven't actually given me any counter evidence. And if you're not going to accept what I give you simply because it's not from a Muslim site, then I have no reason but to believe that you are close-minded, pig-headed man. When you have reputable and non-reputable sources spouting out the same damn thing about history....it kinda makes you wonder.
Arabian Religions of the Pre-Islamic world
oh, here's an argument presented in another forum which was interesting: Pagan Islam the guy is getting his sources from pretty neutral...ACADEMICALLY inclined sites. Are you going to go against history?
I've already provided you prior links on the matter, and here's more to establish my claim. Quit walking in circles and give me a straight answer. Either accept that Islam had pagan roots or come up with historical proof, NOT MUSLIM THEOLOGICAL PROOF that Muhammad came up with these concepts on his own and was inspired solely by Allah (who was known as a moon-god in ancient arabia wink ) first of all if i am the pig heeded one, why i am not the one who calling people pig headed eyh then i never said that i did not read your link..i even save them for my mate discussions.. and i never said that i didn't accept Islam has pagan roots..if you read my post with clear emotional state without pissin off you would know that what i am saying is our fundamental believe that is why when you say all that pagan thing is not a concern for us muslim and i thought you want to know islam and understand our believe...i had heard your concept of religion but why are you pissin off hearing mine? even when i talk about zetgeist in the other forum i did not piss off when you said the movie it is not true coz i believe you also have your own understanding and concept right? n why arent you accept ours? i thought that intellectual discussions should never be influence by emotions
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Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:05 pm
XeroRyn then i never said that i did not read your link..i even save them for my mate discussions.
I haven't heard one discussion from you yet.
XeroRyn and i never said that i didn't accept Islam has pagan roots... you would know that what i am saying is our fundamental believe that is why when you say all that pagan thing is not a concern for us muslim
Hmph. doesn't explain why you said
"now what wrong is after a period of time islam was changed by human error since adam...therefore each prophet came to correct it back...to correct that there is only one god...no trinity concepts, yes Allah is from the word god and we have 99 names to call HIM"
this doesn't seem very accepting of pagan roots. you don't even mention it as part of the lineage.
And if paganism wasn't so much a concern for you then why does something like this this seem to pop up on Muslim sites?
XeroRyn and i thought you want to know islam and understand our believe...i had heard your concept of religion but why are you pissin off hearing mine?
You lack accurate historical proof.
XeroRyn even when i talk about zetgeist in the other forum i did not piss off when you said the movie it is not true coz i believe you also have your own understanding and concept right?
No. My understanding comes from real history. Not from fanatics. Or fundamentalists.
XeroRyn why arent you accept ours?
You haven't given me much reason to.
XeroRyn i thought that intellectual discussions should never be influence by emotions
Again, if you actually read what I wrote you would see that I have given you more information than emotion.
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Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:38 pm
Ratri_Cat XeroRyn then i never said that i did not read your link..i even save them for my mate discussions. XeroRyn and i never said that i didn't accept Islam has pagan roots... you would know that what i am saying is our fundamental believe that is why when you say all that pagan thing is not a concern for us muslim
"now what wrong is after a period of time islam was changed by human error since adam...therefore each prophet came to correct it back...to correct that there is only one god...no trinity concepts, yes Allah is from the word god and we have 99 names to call HIM"
this doesn't seem very accepting of pagan roots. you don't even mention it as part of the lineage.
And if paganism wasn't so much a concern for you then why does something like this this seem to pop up on Muslim sites?
XeroRyn and i thought you want to know islam and understand our believe...i had heard your concept of religion but why are you pissin off hearing mine? XeroRyn even when i talk about zetgeist in the other forum i did not piss off when you said the movie it is not true coz i believe you also have your own understanding and concept right? XeroRyn why arent you accept ours?
XeroRyn i thought that intellectual discussions should never be influence by emotions yeah i know that mine is lack of history..and this aint my field..but what i give you is our own understanding...I believe their is islamic researcher about that...if if somehow my friends have time to give me i'll give you kay one thing about history is no one really know what happened back then... and one thing more....about hadith word from the prophet Muhammad... because we Islam believe that no one really know what happen in the past except for what the qur'an has told us we also believe no one really can sure that the prophet has said it that is why we have hadith sahih( word that was proven and can be sure from the prophet) and hadith that not to be believe or some a bit syubhah( hard to believe) and we still doing research with this like yours you have a lot of gospel right? some are accepted and some are not...and the gospel of judas was a bit unaccpetable by our story of Jesus for your info and about that pop-up if peope understand the basic in islam of one god they wont be cncern with this and if people understand islam they will learn to respect other religion...and stand for Islam..i mean people may get confuse a bit if people keep asking why why why why so that is why they keep popin and we the one who understand should explain the basic of islam if you really notice what we really againts is Jesus as god and the crucification, that is all... and you said im not accepting...i am when i said islam is changed by human error (islam+error=pagan islam) like when you mix two drinks still exist the previos characteristic of the drink right? okay there is a clean and pure flow of river...after time we human benefit from it but doesnt take care much of it and do as we please with it later a while the river got contaminated..it is the same river but contaminated...but when we send people cto clean it back what we able to get is the same river only cleaner this is how we islam accept pagan root of islam... i aint got no history (you should know my capabilty by now) to back this but the qur'an word is enough and before accpeting any hadith make sure it is sahih about tthat 40 years hadith i never heard of it b4 but about al-aqsa as our first qiblat yes and may i ask do have the story od abraham and his son ismail? i want to hear the christian version of it...if can...all of it
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Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:30 pm
XeroRyn yeah i know that mine is lack of history..and this aint my field..but what i give you is our own understanding...I believe their is islamic researcher about that...if if somehow my friends have time to give me i'll give you kay
XeroRyn one thing about history is no one really know what happened back then... XeroRyn and one thing more....about hadith word from the prophet Muhammad... because we Islam believe that no one really know what happen in the past except for what the qur'an has told us
Which is why I see this literal interpretation as the Creationists trying to force down our mouths that the world was created literally in 7 days
So basically, whatever the Qu'ran leaves out in history, isn't true/believed/accepted, despite physical evidence saying otherwise?
yup. literalists. gonk XeroRyn we also believe no one really can sure that the prophet has said it that is why we have hadith sahih( word that was proven and can be sure from the prophet) and hadith that not to be believe or some a bit syubhah( hard to believe) and we still doing research with this
So you guys are still sorting out what needs to be the accepted standard of writings...erm sayings from Muhammad?XeroRyn like yours you have a lot of gospel right? some are accepted and some are not...and the gospel of judas was a bit unaccpetable by our story of Jesus for your info
We have an organized cannon, a group of scriptures that the Church believes clearly defines our faith. Other stories, though some people treat them as heretic works, do not define the Catholic faith as well as what is in the Catholic Bible. XeroRyn and about that pop-up if peope understand the basic in islam of one god they wont be cncern with this
And just because you're satisfied with belief in One God doesn't mean you won't have questions about the the belief. Unless you're just a programmed robot to obey without question. stare XeroRyn and if people understand islam they will learn to respect other religion...and stand for Islam..i mean people may get confuse a bit if people keep asking why why why why so that is why they keep popin and we the one who understand should explain the basic of islam XeroRyn if you really notice what we really againts is Jesus as god and the crucification, that is all...
sounds like he's rather divine to me, based upon what I've read in the Qu'ran.
nope. haven't noticed the issue at all. rolleyes XeroRyn and you said im not accepting...i am when i said islam is changed by human error (islam+error=pagan islam) like when you mix two drinks still exist the previos characteristic of the drink right?
I say history, realhistory says something quite different. I'm talking about the anthropology of Islam....the evolution of Islam, how it came to be proclaimed by your prophet, which has a strong link with pagan Arabs and circulation of Christian and Jewish beliefs.XeroRyn i aint got no history (you should know my capabilty by now) to back this but the qur'an word is enough and before accpeting any hadith make sure it is sahih XeroRyn and may i ask do have the story od abraham and his son ismail? i want to hear the christian version of it...if can...all of it
Oh, and since I've seen quite a bit of Muslim sites talking about who Abraham sacrificed, it's really Isaac
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:24 am
now i understand especially you r going to marry a muslim man..in heart yoy have to choose this two different lifestyle eyh...i believe it is up to you...as christianity is part of God Will as we Muslim call islam
just that we dont accept Jesus as God
yeah he is special and all prophets r special and have its own specialty..
in Islamic story Jesus is not the only baby that can speak.
and yes we still sorting out the hadith( saying from the prophet) you can except it the same as gospel i guess
yes we learn from history and we have learn a lot from Muhammad .s.a.w
especially things that you learn from the forming of madinah. Like a genius but if you said that he just use other religions and change it, when did he learn about other religion...and Muhammad s,a,w cant read and write....................
about the god create the world in seven day...whats wrong with that??
i mean do you really know how long the big bang took?
and even in Islam there is different period of time such as .Earth time...the other world time and in the graveyard(world after death) time and their is a saying that a day in the graveyard is equal to years on earth
yeah i have a question to about my life and i even questioned if we just like a toy for god
but i come to a revealation from deep within me....there is god......that all i need...........................................
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:44 am
XeroRyn now i understand especially you r going to marry a muslim man..
XeroRyn just that we dont accept Jesus as God XeroRyn and yes we still sorting out the hadith( saying from the prophet) you can except it the same as gospel i guess
See, when we study the bible, we just don't reflect on the text. We think about the world behind the text (history as it was happening at that point in time, influences, where and when it was written, language style of the time, ect), the world of the text (the linguistic definitions of the text) and the world beyond the text (what the Gospels, what the Bible as whole holds for us today). This way we get a clearer picture when reading Gospel writings and Old Testament Scriptures.XeroRyn yes we learn from history and we have learn a lot from Muhammad .s.a.w XeroRyn Like a genius but if you said that he just use other religions and change it, when did he learn about other religion...and Muhammad s,a,w cant read and write....................
XeroRyn about the god create the world in seven day...whats wrong with that?? XeroRyn i mean do you really know how long the big bang took?
Dude, the Catholics came up with the big bang theory. It took about 15 billion years.
http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htmXeroRyn and even in Islam there is different period of time such as .Earth time...the other world time and in the graveyard(world after death) time and their is a saying that a day in the graveyard is equal to years on earth XeroRyn yeah i have a question to about my life and i even questioned if we just like a toy for god
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Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:29 pm
Ratri_Cat XeroRyn now i understand especially you r going to marry a muslim man..
XeroRyn just that we dont accept Jesus as God XeroRyn and yes we still sorting out the hadith( saying from the prophet) you can except it the same as gospel i guess
See, when we study the bible, we just don't reflect on the text. We think about the world behind the text (history as it was happening at that point in time, influences, where and when it was written, language style of the time, ect), the world of the text (the linguistic definitions of the text) and the world beyond the text (what the Gospels, what the Bible as whole holds for us today). This way we get a clearer picture when reading Gospel writings and Old Testament Scriptures.XeroRyn yes we learn from history and we have learn a lot from Muhammad .s.a.w XeroRyn Like a genius but if you said that he just use other religions and change it, when did he learn about other religion...and Muhammad s,a,w cant read and write....................
XeroRyn about the god create the world in seven day...whats wrong with that?? XeroRyn i mean do you really know how long the big bang took?
Dude, the Catholics came up with the big bang theory. It took about 15 billion years.
http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htmXeroRyn and even in Islam there is different period of time such as .Earth time...the other world time and in the graveyard(world after death) time and their is a saying that a day in the graveyard is equal to years on earth XeroRyn yeah i have a question to about my life and i even questioned if we just like a toy for god he raped you!! god sake....sorry bout that sorting out the hadith is not that we were unclear about the meaning...we just want to make sure that hadith i really from Muhammad s.a.w about the interpretation is has been cleared long time ago accept the interpretation by some extremist ( damn them all) the history that i meant was the forming of islam....the history of the forming of Madinah and the pilgrimage how he organise the community read about it........... yeah we cannot measure but still we may know only form god's word like in Islam...when Muhammad s.a.w was asked when is the judgment day,,he only showed a distance between two finger we dont know how long is between 2 finger as you said god's year the only thing that we know that it is short and the small signs he prophesied also showing now...(to much coincidence eyh if he was bluffing) tell me about this creationism
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Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:34 am
Between two fingers in the WHOLE UNIVERSE! It is many many many many years!!!!!!!!
Proberly as long as it would thake u to walk to a star!
And wassen't this about black magik? stare I whant to learn about it 3nodding
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Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:52 am
Zaaki Between two fingers in the WHOLE UNIVERSE! It is many many many many years!!!!!!!! Proberly as long as it would thake u to walk to a star! And wassen't this about black magik? stare I whant to learn about it 3nodding Let me give you a piece of advice, do not learn it. Because whenever a person feels powerful, he'd like to use this power. Again I say this phrase * Whoever gets near fire, falls in it *. And fire here is using magic in haram ( God forbid ). So, just being careful, don't learn it!
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