Do "Wiccans" have the right to be called Wiccan?

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

RubyLight

I believe that through a great amount of studying and discretion a person can become a Wiccan if they accept the universal beliefs of the religion.

That's the thing though; there really aren't any "universal beliefs" since Wicca is orthopraxic (based on correct practice) and knowing the correct practice is what would matter. Beliefs can vary widely among Wiccans.

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I don't consider such people as "Traditionalists" by any means, however I believe that their ecclectic paths should be respected as valid.

Their paths are valid and are respected, they're just not Wicca.

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I can understand why you would not consider a booklearner Wiccan, especially with authors such as RavenWolf out there. However, if an individual is truely inspired by the Lord and Lady and decide the incredibly difficult task of self-teaching (along with help from the Gods of course. biggrin ), I don't see why they should be denied the right to be recognized as a Wiccan by the rest of the community.

How can one be truly inspired by the Lord and Lady of the Isles when the person in question doesn't even know their names and does not know the correct way in which the gods like to be worshiped?
And I don't understand why it is a "right" to be considered Wiccan. It's a responsibility. It is a privilege. One is not recognized in the community as a Wiccan because they lack knowledge of the correct ritual structure and initiation lineage among other things. I mean, it would be like if I read a few medical encyclopedias and then demanded that the medical community recognize me as a fully licensed doctor because I have the "right" to be a doctor even though I have not completed proper training.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

RubyLight

I disagree. Especially, due to the fact that contact with fellow Wiccans, never mind a coven you're actually interested in is incredibly difficult.

Finding a coven accepting Neophytes that is also legitimate and lineaged is indeed very difficult. I don't really see why that would make non-initiates Wiccan, though.

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I believe that through a great amount of studying and discretion a person can become a Wiccan if they accept the universal beliefs of the religion.

There aren't really any universal beliefs of Wicca. Wicca is orthopraxic. It's about how you perform ritual. Wicca is an experiential mystery religion; the teachings and beliefs aren't taught explicitly. They must be experienced first-hand through those specific rituals.

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I don't consider such people as "Traditionalists" by any means, however I believe that their ecclectic paths should be respected as valid.

They are valid Pagan paths, and they are valid religions. They're just not Wicca.

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I can understand why you would not consider a booklearner Wiccan, especially with authors such as RavenWolf out there. However, if an individual is truely inspired by the Lord and Lady and decide the incredibly difficult task of self-teaching (along with help from the Gods of course. biggrin ), I don't see why they should be denied the right to be recognized as a Wiccan by the rest of the community.

Call me a liberal if you will, but I do believe you can connect with and be inspired by the same deities as are worshipped in Wicca. Sure, you don't know the names that are used within Wicca, but I strongly suspect Gardner made them up anyway so I don't see the issue. If the Lord and Lady come to you, if They inspire you, if They speak to you, perhaps tell you different names, then that is well and good. I suspect this happens in much of Neo-Wicca that worships the Triple Goddess and the Horned God, and indeed outside of Neo-Wicca in similar paths that involve a God and a Goddess.

But this doesn't make your religion Wicca. You can worship Odinn outside of Asatru, and you can worship the Lady outside of Wicca (in theory, anyway). But the name you use is not the name used in Wicca, and thus you are not practising Wicca.

Self-teaching is indeed very difficult. But what one is teaching oneself is not Wicca, cannot be Wicca. Given the nature of Wicca, self-teaching is simply impossible.  

[RubyLight]

Ultraviolett1127

That's the thing though; there really aren't any "universal beliefs" since Wicca is orthopraxic (based on correct practice) and knowing the correct practice is what would matter. Beliefs can vary widely among Wiccans.

Ah , so are you discrediting the Seaux Wicca, desingned by Raymond Buckland for both the solitary and coven practioner?
Do you discredit solitary Wiccans altogether and do not believe that if an author did present "correct" teahcings for public distribution that those people who took up that study are not valid?

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How can one be truly inspired by the Lord and Lady of the Isles when the person in question doesn't even know their names and does not know the correct way in which the gods like to be worshiped?
And I don't understand why it is a "right" to be considered Wiccan. It's a responsibility. It is a privilege. One is not recognized in the community as a Wiccan because they lack knowledge of the correct ritual structure and initiation lineage among other things. I mean, it would be like if I read a few medical encyclopedias and then demanded that the medical community recognize me as a fully licensed doctor because I have the "right" to be a doctor even though I have not completed proper training.

Clearyly, you don't believe that the Gods can contact people outside of the traditional rings. sweatdrop As for the doctor comment, I'm speaking of a religion, not a medical science.

Sanguina-chan

There aren't really any universal beliefs of Wicca. Wicca is orthopraxic. It's about how you perform ritual. Wicca is an experiential mystery religion; the teachings and beliefs aren't taught explicitly. They must be experienced first-hand through those specific rituals.

If that is true than how can you consider a coven initiate a valid Wiccan? If covens very without a universal code to classify them as "Wicca" then it would just be different groups of pagans.
And rituals that come out of a book can be experienced first hand. Most coven leaders perform based on some written instruction, correct?

Also, if you trace the roots to Gardener who combined ideas from other people to come up with the religion of Wicca in the first place, the idea of a solitary practioner, performing spells based off a generally accepted format being considered a valid Wiccan is not so far fetched. And how many others developed ideas that became Wiccan "standards"?  

[Frail Appetite]

I agree that you must be all of those things.
But if someone hasn't yet found a coven or might not be old enough but has the intentions of joining a coven, then I won't try to tell them what they are.
If they try calling themselves a "solitary Wiccan," I explain to them that they aren't Wiccan and why they aren't. I try to be nice, no matter how much they bother me, so as not to offend anyone.  

[MidnightLetter]

This post is not directed at anyone in particular, and though I did use the quote below as a jumping off point, it is used only as a point of reference. biggrin

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If that is true than how can you consider a coven initiate a valid Wiccan? If covens very without a universal code to classify them as "Wicca" then it would just be different groups of pagans.

What unifies them (and classifies it as Wicca) is the core practices. Wicca is an orthopraxy, which means that what is most important is correct practice, not correct beliefs (though there are some core beliefs as well). All Wiccan covens have exactly the same ritual structure and basic core beliefs (initiation, lineage, oath bound, mysteries, worship of the lord and lady, polarity, reincarnation, etc...). It is when you deviate from those core practices, that it ceases to be Wiccan. The reason that "beliefs" may vary is because each person (through the proper ritual structure) experiences it all a bit differently. Realize too that Wicca (as it is traditionally practiced) isn't for everyone...it is about being in service to the Lord and Lady. It is a priesthood and in order to be a proper priest/ess you need to not only have proper training, but even before that make sure that the priesthood is actually the proper path for you. That is what a coven does (at least initially).

Most of what has been published in books under the titles of "Wicca"/"Wiccan" does not have anything to do with traditional Wicca (it is at best Neo-Wicca, but that is still a debatable topic for many). Most are simply based on the non-oath bound parts of Wicca (some of them are simply outright lies - for Wicca certainly is not "whatever you want it to be"), and none of them have any information on the oath-bound portions of the Religion. And they never will. Wiccans take their oaths very seriously.

Buckland writes well enough about his path, but it is not actually Wicca. My understanding is that he has a somewhat valid claim to use the word Wicca because of the word's old Anglo-Saxon meaning, not because the path he created actually has anything to do with Wicca (though there are parts of it that are based on outer court, non-oath bound material of Wicca).

No one that I know has ever tried to say that what person believes is invalid or somehow not proper for them to believe (unless it is an out-right lie and/or harmful). What the issue is...is whether or not a person can honestly claim the title of Wiccan. A person can read all the recommended BTW books under the sun, but unless they have been initiated, there will always be core material that they are missing. Core material that makes Wicca...Wicca. So how can one fully practice a religion, when they don't know the whole of that religion (or even the most important parts).

What I think is a good starting point...is to just be aware of the differences between Wicca really is and what has been misrepresented as Wicca. If you are comfortable in your own practices, that is great. No one is telling you to stop, they may be asking you to simply claim a title that is more appropriate. If you are just starting out...take what is said here to heart. You have a great opportunity to learn from the beginning, what some of us didnt' find out until we'd been doing it wrong for years. And yes it does piss me off that there are (and will continue to be) books our there misrepresenting what Wicca is. To know that I (and others) wasted hard earned money on crap... scream It was a shock, and it required a bit of soul searching, and a big adjustment in some of my thought processes, but I'm glad that I know. Wish I'd known sooner.

In Wicca...2nd degree initiation is about the "dark night of the soul", and finding your way back out into the light. For me finding out the facts about Wicca has sort of been like that, and yes I am still working my way back out, it is definitely not an overnight process. But I will be that much stronger for it in the end, and therefore I welcome it.

Links that may be of interest:

Yahoo Groups...you have to join, but great resources even if all you do is lurk since you can search the archives to your hearts content. There are HP/HPS who frequent both lists, A&J has a separate seekers list that you can register for if you are ready to look for a coven in your area.

Amber and Jet
Beginning Wicca
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Traditional and Innovative Trends in Witchcraft

Reading List  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

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Ah , so are you discrediting the Seaux Wicca, desingned by Raymond Buckland for both the solitary and coven practioner?

I'm saying it's not Wicca. I'm NOT discrediting it. Buckland created a very interesting path, but it just simply isn't Wicca.
It does not follow the core practices. It does not honor the Lord and Lady of the Isles (and in fact, misappropriates Freyja to a moon goddess stressed . Mani does his job just fine kthx).

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Do you discredit solitary Wiccans altogether and do not believe that if an author did present "correct" teahcings for public distribution that those people who took up that study are not valid?

If an author is presenting "correct teachings" in a book, he is either a liar or an oath-breaker neutral and even then you wouldn't be known as a Wiccan within the community for learning from someone so despicable. And from learning from a book, you don't have the initiation lineage that is required as well. It'd be impossible to get a vouch for someone by asking "Hey, did Annie really read this book?"

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Clearly, you don't believe that the Gods can contact people outside of the traditional rings. sweatdrop As for the doctor comment, I'm speaking of a religion, not a medical science.

I'm highly skeptical on it, yes. Sure, it might be the Lord and Lady of the Isles contacting you. But it also might be Loki out for a lark.
-shrug- The only ones who could really decide on that either way would be other Wiccans.
As for the doctor comment, it's the same thing. You wouldn't go into any professional field that has specific requirements and demand to be known as a member of the profession without proper training, so why do you think that since it's religion, you can go about stealing a title that you have not properly trained for?  

[Lotus Poem]

I have heard some very well thought out and persuading explanations for why a person calls themselves Wiccan when they clearly are not. However, I disagree. This is something I have thought long and hard about due to the controversial nature of the subject. It's just that saying you are something doesn't necessarily mean you are that thing. While I have a huge amount of respect for self-identification, sitting in a garage does not make you a car. Also, I agree that it is insulting to the people who have dedicated themselves their time and their hearts to becoming wiccan. They have put in the work, the time, and the dedication and they have earned the title. How would you feel if you had worked for weeks on an important assignment only to have the person next to you turn it in with their name on it b/c they totally agreed with you and it spoke to them in some way. Is it fair for them to get the rewards of your hard work?

What is wrong with correctly identifying yourself? What is wrong with the words Pagan or Witch? Why would you want to say you are part of group that you are not a part of? It reminds me of George Castanza on Seinfeld telling people he's an architect b/c he always wanted to be an architect.  

[RubyLight]

I can see these are valid arguments that I can understand. I'm going to try to find a coven, if I don't find one that relates closest to my beliefs, I'll continue my path of Eclectic Paganism strongly based on Wicca.
Thank you Scott Cunningham and Raymund Buckland for confusing the hell out of me!!! scream

A quick question though, if I sucessfully make it through the training would I be qualified to practice on my own as a Wiccan?  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

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Ah , so are you discrediting the Seaux Wicca, desingned by Raymond Buckland for both the solitary and coven practioner?

Seax-Wica isn't Wicca. That's why it's called "Seax-Wica" and not "Wicca". It's an interesting path, and obviously inspired by Wicca, but it's not Wicca.

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Do you discredit solitary Wiccans altogether and do not believe that if an author did present "correct" teahcings for public distribution that those people who took up that study are not valid?

The people are valid. Their studies are valid. But they are not Wiccans, and the information presented was not information on Wicca.

For example, if you were studying Gnostic texts, your studies would be valid Gnostic studies, but they would not be Christian studies, and you couldn't claim they were.

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If that is true than how can you consider a coven initiate a valid Wiccan? If covens very without a universal code to classify them as "Wicca" then it would just be different groups of pagans.
And rituals that come out of a book can be experienced first hand. Most coven leaders perform based on some written instruction, correct?

Wiccan rituals do not come out of a book. The only book they're written in is Gardner's book of shadows, which despite popular belief is not the one available for free online (although that text is very interesting). Any rituals you find in a book are interesting rituals but they are not Wiccan rituals.

The universal code that classifies them is "lineaged to Gardner" and "practises the core ritual practices designed and formed by Gardner". There are oaths you take, there are mysteries you experience, that you can't get out of books. It is essential that your coven is lineaged via initiation to Gardner himself and that you retain those rituals.

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Also, if you trace the roots to Gardener who combined ideas from other people to come up with the religion of Wicca in the first place, the idea of a solitary practioner, performing spells based off a generally accepted format being considered a valid Wiccan is not so far fetched. And how many others developed ideas that became Wiccan "standards"?

Those spell formats are "ceremonial", not "Wiccan". Spell format has nothing to do with being Wiccan, to be honest. Yes, they'll do things Ceremonially and there will be a particular way they perform spells, but Wicca is defined by practising the correct rituals in the correct way, not by whether you incorporate moon phase into your spellwork.

Yes, Gardner combined various sources when coming up with Wicca, but that doesn't mean combining other similar sources means that you will come up with the same thing. That's like two people throwing together basic cake ingredients without knowing what the other is doing and assuming that they'll both end up with a double-chocolate sponge cake with chocolate frosting. One person will end up with that and another person will end up with brownies, or with carrot cake, or with strawberry shortcake. Even if you DID end up with double-chocolate sponge cake, you have no idea what the other person's recipe actually was and no idea what their cake tastes like, so you don't know how close you personally got to their version of double-chocolate sponge cake.

Any solitary practitioner has to have been initiated, first and foremost. After initiation, after experiencing those rituals and mysteries, if you then decided to leave your coven and work alone, that is one thing. But even then, you're no longer performing the Wiccan rituals.

What are "Wiccan standards"?  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

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I can see these are valid arguments that I can understand. I'm going to try to find a coven, if I don't find one that relates closest to my beliefs, I'll continue my path of Eclectic Paganism strongly based on Wicca.
Thank you Scott Cunningham and Raymund Buckland for confusing the hell out of me!!! scream

A quick question though, if I sucessfully make it through the training would I be qualified to practice on my own as a Wiccan?

You can believe what you like, apparently. As Wicca is defined by what you do, what you actually believe seems to be up to you.

As for your question... it depends. It really boils down to whether what you'd be practising alone would qualify as Wicca. You would have to retain the same rituals as practised by the coven. If you can do this, fine... if not, then you're a Wiccan, but what you're currently practising is not Wicca. Does that make sense?

You also couldn't form your own coven until you had your third degree and your HPS thought you were able and ready to do that.  

[too2sweet]

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I can see these are valid arguments that I can understand. I'm going to try to find a coven, if I don't find one that relates closest to my beliefs, I'll continue my path of Eclectic Paganism strongly based on Wicca.
Thank you Scott Cunningham and Raymund Buckland for confusing the hell out of me!!! scream

A quick question though, if I successfully make it through the training would I be qualified to practice on my own as a Wiccan?

My understanding of it is that Wiccan practice is based on being practiced within the coven structure. You would still be Wiccan, but if you were practicing solitary, it wouldn't technically be Wicca. I'm guessing though that if you find the right coven, you wouldn't want to go back to solitary work. You'd feel like something was missing.  

[RubyLight]

So, the definition of Wiccan boils down to initiation. That's kind of difficult,since I'm haveing difficulty finding covens in my area. Is there some form of directory you can suggest? Are online covens acceptable?  

[too2sweet]

Join the Amber and Jet list, they have a seeker list you can join which can help you find a "local" coven. Though "local" can be a bit relative.  

[RubyLight]

Thanks.