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dark__sunshin Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:13 pm
this goes to ratri >> u r saying that hijab isn't important and u don't see the reason behind waring it ... but i want to ask u a simple question ;D : --> why does Mary and Mother Teresa in every picture u have for them .. they are wearing a scarf on ?? and why does YOUR nuns wear a scarf on ??
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:33 pm
dark__sunshin this goes to ratri >> u r saying that hijab isn't important and u don't see the reason behind waring it ... but i want to ask u a simple question ;D : --> why does Mary and Mother Teresa in every picture u have for them .. they are wearing a scarf on ?? and why does YOUR nuns wear a scarf on ?? Not all nuns do. It depends on the order [specific group dedicated to a type of theme/teaching of Christ]. The general teaching was that it went along with the vow of celibacy, chastity, humility, meekness, ect. It also made it easier for people to identify who was who. It was SYMBOLIC of these characteristics. Then we got smart and realized that having a veil on your head doesn't make you more meek, humble, chaste, modest than anyone else.
Most of these orders are several hundred years old (like the dominican nuns) and they keep up the tradition. There are some orders that don't have the uniforms that the order that Mother Teresa belonged to and other older ones. Most modern ones just advocate modest dress without the scarf.
Tradition is really key. Wearing a scarf on your head was common in that part of the country back then for women . So we honor that, and don't try to change Mary's image because we don't personally see the point of keeping tradition on outerwear. Most Jews back then were extremely focused on the wrong sort of things. They focused on externally (if you didn't dress right or eat properly or hung out with the right sort of folk....). When Jesus came around, he didn't stick with that. He said it was more important to focus on internal (the heart, the spirit, love for God internally rather than displaying it through exaggerated actions and dressing a specific way)
And not all pics of mary are veiled. Pics of the Blessed mother are also based upon the region from where they come from. They are interpretations of the artist's perspective of the Blessed Mother. For example, the pic of Our Lady of Guadalupe, is very much styled like the pagan goddesses and has pagan symbology in it...this made it easier for the poor latin american Indians who were brutally forced to covert to Christianity have an easier time handling it. The blessed mother's tenderness and mercy is very great for us Catholics No Veil on Mary
Crowning]
Mary without veil
Stained glass mary without veil
our lady of guadalupe
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:53 pm
So the deal of nuns wearing veil is sort of tradition? Ok, then. Why did they wear it those hundreds of years ago? You asked me about the reason, I'm asking you about the reason as well.
Let me put it this way Ratri. My mother moved me from a school, and put me in another. I was so angry, because I left my friends and had to put up with new rude people. But then, I realised that this new school is so much better, and I love it best. And I realised that my mother done it for my own good. So, that way I grew respect and love for her.
But then, the same thing goes for Allah ( SWT ). He put us into the society of Islam with all the rules of it. Just because he knows it's the best for us. He's the most merciful, and he forgives us for our sins as soon as we ask for forgiveness. Why would he do things that are not good for us? He's more merciful than a mother on her child. Why shouldn't we just obey him. I explained to you to provent adultrey and what comes after adultery. That's the last answer I shall give you.
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:43 pm
Mini_Angel_1994 So the deal of nuns wearing veil is sort of tradition? Ok, then. Why did they wear it those hundreds of years ago? It was a practice carried on by the Roman pagans. The new use that early Christians has was that virgins were considered to be the "bride" of Christ...like the Roman priestesses did when serving the temple. So essentially, this pagan practice was changed to fit the religion; aligning yourself to God through this cloth that "protected" your presence from men. The practice carried on and ended up being a part of those women who considered themselves married to Christ. It's something that is still in practice today. Just not all nuns use it. The Second Vatican Council determined that is was not mandatory for women to wear scarfs/veils for appropriate worship. Some women still wear it, but most of us find that wearing modest clothing is quite fine.
Mini_Angel_1994 Let me put it this way Ratri. My mother moved me from a school, and put me in another. Regardless of whether you realized it later or sooner, your mom had a SPECIFIC reason for switching schools. And often well justified, and more than one reason. She didn't just switch you from your school without good, well founded reasonMini_Angel_1994 But then, the same thing goes for Allah ( SWT ). He put us into the society of Islam with all the rules of it. Just because he knows it's the best for us. He's the most merciful, and he forgives us for our sins as soon as we ask for forgiveness. Why would he do things that are not good for us I never said that wearing the veil isn't good. I said I didn't see the REASON for it. I haven't heard an adequate justification. If you could give me some good reasons, a REAL justification for following this tradition, then I would say it was more of difference of choice than anything else. I don't see a good reason.
Mini_Angel_1994 Why shouldn't we just obey him. I prefer to not obey blindly. Mini_Angel_1994 That's the last answer I shall give you. sad
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:36 am
The reason why my mother moved me from that school that she said that it's unappropriate for you, and it distracks you from studying, and the teachers aren't good enough. That's why she moved me. The same goes for Allah, the reason why he moved me from one society to another is that he knows that it's unappropriate for me, and it distracks me from worshipping him. Knowing that I also have my free time, you do whatever you want with this free time.
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:38 am
Mini_Angel_1994 The reason why my mother moved me from that school that she said that it's unappropriate for you, did she give a reason why that school was inappropriate?Mini_Angel_1994 and it distracks you from studying, How does a school distract you from studying?Mini_Angel_1994 and the teachers aren't good enough. How did she know this? Has she seen evaluations? Did she talk to the teachers and discover that?
...see where I'm going? There has to be a well-founded reasonable claim to justify your mom for changing schools. She would have had to do observations and some research (either by talking with other moms or looking at credentials of the school and by taking into account what you tell her about the school) to give you these sorts of reasons. There's a source of information for the reasons why your mom moved you. Mini_Angel_1994 The same goes for Allah, the reason why he moved me from one society to another is that he knows that it's unappropriate for me, Has Allah told you this personally? Or are you a convert to the faith? And how do you know that Allah knows that the society is inappropriate for you?Mini_Angel_1994 and it distracks me from worshipping him. Knowing that I also have my free time, you do whatever you want with this free time. So are you saying that unless you are worshipping God every moment that you are not focused in school or something, it's a wasting time? And how do you know that society is distracting you from worshiping him? Or is it too difficult to ignore pressures of society, deal with it, and continue worshiping your God? I'm rather confused on this last point you made.
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:46 pm
I'm feeling tired of this, but I must continue.
My mother felt that the school is inappropriate because I was complaining all the time that my maths teacher is so stupid. And my music teacher is so rude. And the principle likes guys more than girls. And I was feeling sad. Even though, I loved that enviroment, because it was fun!! Because we moslty didn't study ( which my mother observed my grades were backing down ).
Do you see where I'm going? I'm not worshipping Allah in every second. For God's sake! I'm learning each and every second a new thing. For example, I learnt in the last 5 seconds that it's ( inappropriate ) not ( unappropriate ). That will help me speaking English well and trying to communicate with you in the proper way, that will help me to teach my ideas in a clear way. Worshipping Allah might be in anything. Even going to school is worshipping Allah, because we go there to learn. But then, as I said, I have free time. I can write, draw, watch TV. But then, in these very actions, you might write the way you feel, about wars happening for example, that's what's happening right? I feel upset about it, I'm going to write a poem. People will love that poem and understand how I feel. And when I watch TV, I must've learnt something, like a wisdom from a movie. So, it's endless, learning something is endless. But if we use our free time to go down the street uncovered, laughing and talking with guys. I really see this as the dirty way of spending one's time. Because you can do more useful things. When you reach the marriage age, you can look for somebody without having to use those dirty means. Making yourself look pretty for someone isn't that important. I mean yes, be clean, be organised, but don't put on 5 tons of make up just to look pretty so guys can look at you!! I see that those girls have a weakness point because they want somebody to tell them you are beautiful!! But I'm confident of myself, I'll know when I get married, that my husband didn't marry me because I'm beautiful, he'll marry me because I'm smart, intelligent and I understand what life is.
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:11 pm
Mini_Angel_1994 But if we use our free time to go down the street uncovered, laughing and talking with guys. I really see this as the dirty way of spending one's time. Because you can do more useful things. As a random question, do you prioritize learning and work above relationships with people normally? Would it be a dirty way of spending one's time if you were a guy? Why or why not? Mini_Angel_1994 When you reach the marriage age, you can look for somebody without having to use those dirty means. Look for somebody? That's not how it's usually done (at least where I live). People don't tell themselves, "I want to get married, so I have to find a guy." It's directly opposite; the reason for marriage is the guy. "There's this really great guy. . . I want to know him better." And if it works out, they marry. Mini_Angel_1994 Making yourself look pretty for someone isn't that important. I mean yes, be clean, be organised, but don't put on 5 tons of make up just to look pretty so guys can look at you!! The main reason girls wear makeup is not to attract guys. It's usually done to give a person self-confidence and also in competition with other girls. Many to most guys don't find "5 tons of makeup" attractive in the least. Mini_Angel_1994 I see that those girls have a weakness point because they want somebody to tell them you are beautiful!! But I'm confident of myself, I'll know when I get married, that my husband didn't marry me because I'm beautiful, he'll marry me because I'm smart, intelligent and I understand what life is. Well, I've noticed that if a person likes his girlfriend only for her appearance, society in general considered him shallow. No girl wants a guy to marry her just for her appearance. Here, most people marry the person because of who they are (i.e. personality). However, I'm guessing that practically every girl wants her husband to be attracted to her.
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:59 am
Ummm, I guess I'll have to talk with examples.
Let's take some countries for example; there are many problems in there, I can't even imagine how poor those girl are! The enviroment there encourages before marriage relationships, eventually they're going to think a guy is cute, and fall in love (teenage love), then bad things happen, they get pregnant, they don't want their parents to know, they just say: I gained weight, the next thing you know, she leaves the baby in front of a church or some kind of orphan place. The baby is an orphan with a mother alive!! That is stupid, rather selfish!
Islam totally made everything to forbid that from happening! By wearing Hijab and forbidding before marriage relationships, I doubt that something like that will happen. Islam is a life style that makes us live in peace and reduces problems! If you're selfish and you want to satisfy yourself, then think about the circumstances about your actions, eventually somebody is going to hurt from your selfish decissions!
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:38 am
Why is the burden all on the girl? Guys can decide to be honorable and not take advantage of girls. And also, I don't see how wearing an hijab can prevent a person from behaving as if she is married before marriage. An hijab is not a chastity belt. Plenty of girls in the United States who don't wear hijabs are able to wait until marriage, even if they are not religious. For example, I stayed overnight in the university dorms once, and before we slept, all us five girls who shared the suite were talking. Some of them swore and had participated in under-aged drinking (of alcohol), yet all of us were virgins (it was a very wide-ranging conversation). And none of us wear hijabs.
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:05 am
But there's a posibility of it happening? And I'm not saying that only Hijab will provent that, also avoiding mixing with guys. As I said Islam is a whole lifestyle, Hijab alone won't do anything. You girls do not know what's a guy intention! Be honest for once and think of it. I myself when I go to school, we once had a lecture about something, and female and male students were together. I felt so uncomfortable! That I wanted to go out.
I'm not saying this because Allah forbade it, I'm saying out of real experience!
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:19 am
Well, you felt uncomfortable because it was a situation you're rarely in and because you're not used to being around guys and you have been taught that it isn't proper.
I was home schooled and pretty much isolated. The only guys around much were my own brothers (and all my friends were girls). Yet when I started at the university, I don't feel horribly uncomfortable in classrooms that group guys and girls together.
People can avoid temptation without completely closing themselves off.
And frankly I don't see how an hijab helps. How does having a head covering scare guys away? confused
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:08 pm
I want to say One thing.
You have been discussing this topic days passed and yet you are to no conclusion. Instead i would say go wear hijab and experience why Islamic girls are perfered to wear hijab.
But i know FOR YOU (ratri_cat) there are SO MANY hindrances waiting.
(and i am not saying to wear hijab while you are training but the remaining time.)
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:56 pm
tassan I want to say One thing. You have been discussing this topic days passed and yet you are to no conclusion. Instead i would say go wear hijab and experience why Islamic girls are perfered to wear hijab. But i know FOR YOU (ratri_cat) there are SO MANY hindrances waiting.
(and i am not saying to wear hijab while you are training but the remaining time.)I imagine many wear it because it makes them feel religious, or perhaps it's like the holy underwear. o.o But why not go all out with a burqa?
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:38 am
Britomartis-the-Valiant tassan I want to say One thing. You have been discussing this topic days passed and yet you are to no conclusion. Instead i would say go wear hijab and experience why Islamic girls are perfered to wear hijab. But i know FOR YOU (ratri_cat) there are SO MANY hindrances waiting.
(and i am not saying to wear hijab while you are training but the remaining time.)I imagine many wear it because it makes them feel religious, or perhaps it's like the holy underwear. o.o But why not go all out with a burqa? Some one has said there are things which do not have answer but you will know when you do it and feel yourself the difference. its not the question right now that you are wearing a hijab or burqa currently the question is ARE YOU WEARING it? either of them; Then comes thing of how you are wearing it and probably its burqa or hijab that you are wearing.
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