Can you be Wiccan or a Witch and still go to church?

[Katsumi Aki]

I'm sure it could work, depending on the Christianity you follow. If you follow the teachings of Jesus, the core of Christianity (peace, love, tolerance) you can be a Christian Witch. If you follow the bible, no you couldn't, because the bible clearly states that witches are bad, and even orders to kill them.

I don't think you can be a Christian Wiccan. Wicca is it's own religion. Maybe you can incorporate it a little into eclectic Paganism with Christian and Wiccan influences. The Christian God and the Virgin Mary, God and Goddess? No? Don't get mad or offended, this is just a jumbled up thought process. The bible basically insinuates that Mary is a Goddess, just by her story of being the virgin mother of God's son Jesus. Look at all the myths about Gods and Goddesses being born without intercourse that were around when Christianity first came into the world. No offense, but I don't think it's right to say "Mary's a mortal who had a baby without having sex!" if Christianity wasn't so masculine sometimes, maybe the people who wrote it might have decided "ok, either she's a Goddess, or she was boinked" it's not like they had artificial insemination back then. Seriously, this is why I don't acknowledge the bible. I acknowledge the teachings of Jesus as Christianity, but the bible is just a whole bunch of "no" to me.

By the way, I wrote some of this before reading the other argument about Mary. I just edited it for clarification. I don't personally think Mary is a Goddess, I think the whole "virgin" thing is junk. Heck, for all we know the whole "son of God" thing was a metaphor that was taken the way wrong way.  

[Arc En Licorne]

u see i never really went to church but i have gone a few times with family and friends even if i didnt want to. i have been to sunday school as well and my skin didnt burn i was able to get through the door and the holy water that i used never burned me as every one seems to think it will. i feel that u can be more than one religion because if u are happy than it doesnt matter, so i feel that yes u can go to church when practicing wicca and or being a witch  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

xXOnYx MoOnXx

I feel that u can be more than one religion

In some cases - yes. In cases where people are trying to combine mutually exclusive faiths...it tends to look uneducated and disrespectful.  

[rmcdra]

Katsumi Aki

I'm sure it could work, depending on the Christianity you follow. If you follow the teachings of Jesus, the core of Christianity (peace, love, tolerance) you can be a Christian Witch. If you follow the bible, no you couldn't, because the bible clearly states that witches are bad, and even orders to kill them.

Actually the bible doesn't prohibit witchcraft and in fact gives guidelines for how to practice witchcraft. I'll post it up in my next post.

Quote:

I don't think you can be a Christian Wiccan. Wicca is it's own religion. Maybe you can incorporate it a little into eclectic Paganism with Christian and Wiccan influences. The Christian God and the Virgin Mary, God and Goddess? No? Don't get mad or offended, this is just a jumbled up thought process. The bible basically insinuates that Mary is a Goddess, just by her story of being the virgin mother of God's son Jesus. Look at all the myths about Gods and Goddesses being born without intercourse that were around when Christianity first came into the world. No offense, but I don't think it's right to say "Mary's a mortal who had a baby without having sex!" if Christianity wasn't so masculine sometimes, maybe the people who wrote it might have decided "ok, either she's a Goddess, or she was boinked" it's not like they had artificial insemination back then. Seriously, this is why I don't acknowledge the bible. I acknowledge the teachings of Jesus as Christianity, but the bible is just a whole bunch of "no" to me.

One can be a Wiccan and a Christian but there's some serious oath breaking going on in both religions, at least from the Christian perspective. No Mary is not a goddess. She is a saint. And the holiest of the saints according to orthodoxy. If you think the bible is a bunch of "no's" then it's your own misconceptions or it was presented to you from a view point that is not in line with agape. The law of agape is actually quite liberal.

Quote:

By the way, I wrote some of this before reading the other argument about Mary. I just edited it for clarification. I don't personally think Mary is a Goddess, I think the whole "virgin" thing is junk. Heck, for all we know the whole "son of God" thing was a metaphor that was taken the way wrong way.

Depends what kind of virgin is being spoken of. I'll have to check the Strong reference to see what word was translated into virgin but typically a virgin was a young unmarried woman. Could someone correct me if i'm wrong on this?  

[whiporwill-o]

rmcdra

but typically a virgin was a young unmarried woman. Could someone correct me if i'm wrong on this?

i always thought that a virgin was a woman who had yet to be 'known'. i would not think that a young, unmarried prostitute could be considered a virgin. but i may be wrong as well.  

[StellaLuna SkyWind]

So, if you find yourself in a predicament where you wish to be a witch, but find yourself in the predicament where you must sing Christian or catholic religious based songs, is that bad? I'm in many choirs and lots of our songs are either catholic or christian oriented, but i'm not feeling a pull to them. Is it bad?  

[rmcdra]

TeaDidikai

Tea's Witchcraft within Christendom v2.1

The conflict within Christianity over Witchcraft is a bullshit political contrivance.

Lets address the translation errors. Some of these are so skewed as to completely change passages in their entirety, some merely alter the meanings of the words within the Tanakh.

Quote:

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto The Lord: and because of these abominations The Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee." (Deuteronomy 18:10-12 KJV)

"Divination" is from the Hebrew "qecem" which is also used in Prov 16:10, is only a bad thing when done with unclean spirits (as is noted by it's positive used in Proverbs). The word denotes seeking insights from spirits. It is used in both positive and negative lights within the context of scripture, making it clear that the action of seeking guidance from said spirit is only a boon or bane to the faith within the context of the purity of the spirit in question.

"Observer of Times" is summed up within the Hebrew 'anan, which means "covering things" - either by using trickery to pass for prophecy or more likely speaking hidden things, or lies to hide the truth.

"An Enchanter" is summed up in the Hebrew nachash, which meant to hiss or whisper. An open condemnation of gossip to one's benefit.

"Witch" is a faulty translation of kashaph, which is to pray or offer prayers in worship. It needs context unless you are going to damn all of Christendom. The context is straightforward, it addresses those of YHVH's children who do so to gods other than YHVH. This is established in direct opposition to YHVH's commandments.

"Charmer" is mistranslated from the Hebrew chabar, which means to unite and in context is to unite through trickery.

Familiar Spirits come from the word 'owb or "wine skins", which is a direct condemnation prophecy from a bottle- aka, taking drunken ranting as divine edict. More over this ties to the prohibition of using grape products that are of a non-Jewish processing as the initial Kosher Laws within the Jewish faith cite the fact that wine was often consecrated to pagan gods at each step of the fermentation process.

"Wizard" is from the word "yidda`oniy", which means a false prophet.

Necromancer is a piss poor translation of darash, who is a seeker- once again within context of seeking unclean spirits for guidance.

Quote:

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18 KJV)

This one is pretty straight forward. "Witch" as cited above is kashaph, and only applies within the context of the Torah to those who entered into covenant with YHVH at the Mountain and betray YHVH.

Quote:

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry." (1 Samuel 15:23 KJV)

"Witchcraft" is translated from qecem once again for this part of the text.

Quote:

"Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times . . . Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God." (Lev. 19:26, 31)

And now we're back to the Hebrew and nachash and 'anan have already been covered. As have 'owb and yidda`oniy as are already explained above.

Quote:

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21 KJV)

At least within the Greek we have a new term. Pharmakeia- or herbalist or medicine maker. This is a three fold issue.

First, we have the use of plants to poison rather than heal. That goes directly against the Law of Love and the Commandments.

The added insult to injury is the benefit the poisoner would gain from his actions. We have established above with concepts such as nachash- in which deception is wrong holds a larger debt when done for one's personal benefit.

This is a very pragmatic approach that is seen even within our modern culture. Accidents are forgiven, direct harm and crimes of passion are punished, but premeditation to profit on another's suffering is damned even further.

It makes perfect sense that someone who would hide a death by poison for their benefit would be in unfavorable standing with YHVH.

Boxy's interjection -- pharmakeia also means "pariah" or "exile" in Greek. Part of the cultural context of this is that murderers were expelled from the community under pain of death. Thus you have the added context of confirmed murderers hanging around where they're not supposed to, which causes problems to the people of YHVH.

Quote:

"Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15 KJV)

Let's ignore for a moment the fact that Revelation's is one big political satire aimed at Nero.

"Sorcerers" once again is translated from pharmakos as addressed above.

Quote:

"Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts." (Rev. 9:21)

"Sorceries" has the same root as above. Unrepentant poisoners aren't likely to have YHVH's mercy if they are one of his children. The key being unrepentant.

Quote:

"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." (Rev. 18:23)

Aside from the fact the Greek is getting repetitive, you have to hand the use of imagery by John to condemn pharmakeia as the poisoners of nations. It's either a metaphor, or the common practice of poisoning wells and salting lands sending governments into chaos. Exd 23:22 addresses YHVH's stance on being an enemy to his Children.

However, within the context of metaphor, we revisit pharmakeia in a new light- that is to say, to poison with words. We have already established that False Prophets, or yidda`oniy. Even the New Testament condemns them in Mat 7:15, Mat 24:24 and Mar 13:22. This is why 1Jo 4:1 demands one test the spirits that give rise to prophecy.

I realize I am using bastardized approximated Hebrew (one of these days I will have Hebrew enabled on this computer), but it will do in a pinch.

Now, the Jewish Faith does not actively seek to convert others. The reason for this is that they understand that to enter covenant with their god is not a universal demand from their god.

Not everyone is called to serve YHVH. Most of the mass conversion comes out of Paul's edicts from Acts onward, not Yeshua's within the Gospels.

The OT establishes not only that YHVH has a covenant with his people- being the children of Adam and Eve, but that other gods exist. Note how the Ten Commandments does not assert that all other gods are false gods outside of eisegesis, but it names gods other than YHVH within the OT such as Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians found in 1Kings.

Now- we know that Original Sin is tied to Adam and Eve's line. As Adam and Eve are not the only point of Creation within the Scripture (note the lack of YHVH's presence in Gen 1:1), it stands to reason that there is no more evidence that they are the only humans (note in Genesis how Cain takes a wife from humans already established in the lands East of Eden).

The Bible is the communication of the decedents of Adam and Eve and YHVH's relationship with his creation. It stands to reason that his relationship which is turned into a Covenant at Mt. Sinai does not apply to those who are not of that line- especially considering the context of the revelation of YHVH to his children and the formation of the Jewish faith as a direct edict applying to them, not to the people that were the Children and descendents of other gods such as the People of Cain's wife- or Seth's wife.

These other peoples are consistently referred to in the OT. See: Jer 10:2 and Lev. 18:3.

YHVH clearly states he is not the god of these pagan peoples- but at no time does he say that these gods are not real. Pagan peoples have their own gods their own lineage and heritage. Thus only those in covenant with YHVH are bound by his laws. Furthermore- the scripture itself, when it context does not damn those who practice qecem within the guidelines of Clean spirits found within YHVH's domain.

 

[rmcdra]

whiporwill-o

rmcdra

but typically a virgin was a young unmarried woman. Could someone correct me if i'm wrong on this?

i always thought that a virgin was a woman who had yet to be 'known'. i would not think that a young, unmarried prostitute could be considered a virgin. but i may be wrong as well.

Well this might help. Words used describe Mary as a virgin.

ἀνήρ Strong's reference 435

1. with reference to sex
1. of a male
2. of a husband
3. of a betrothed or future husband
2. with reference to age, and to distinguish an adult man from a boy
3. any male
4. used generically of a group of both men and women

Used in Luke 1:34.

παρθένος Strong's reference 3933

1 a virgin

a. a marriageable maiden
b. a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man
c. one's marriageable daughter

2 a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity

a. one who has never had intercourse with women

Used in Matthew 1:23 and in Luke 1:27.

If there's anyone with a good grasp of Greek who would like to comment further upon this that would be great.

Gotten from Search God's Word.org  

[rmcdra]

Taikiko

So, if you find yourself in a predicament where you wish to be a witch, but find yourself in the predicament where you must sing Christian or catholic religious based songs, is that bad? I'm in many choirs and lots of our songs are either catholic or christian oriented, but i'm not feeling a pull to them. Is it bad?

What do you mean by bad? What do you mean by "not feeling a pull" and in reference to what, to the songs or to the God that the Church teaches of? You might want to read that guide I just posted concerning witchcraft and Christianity, you might be feeling unnecessary guilt.

Edit: Also Catholics are Christians. I mean they united the 12 (or more) different Christianities being taught after Jesus' death.  

[StellaLuna SkyWind]

Today, religion has me completely baffled. That's all. And I probably am just feeling unnecessary guilt... i do that a lot.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Taikiko

So, if you find yourself in a predicament where you wish to be a witch, but find yourself in the predicament where you must sing Christian or catholic religious based songs, is that bad? I'm in many choirs and lots of our songs are either catholic or christian oriented, but i'm not feeling a pull to them. Is it bad?

Why would it be a predicament? Christianity has plenty of beautiful hymns. It doesn't make one less Pagan-y or witchy to sing some hymns or even enjoy them neutral I find myself humming one now and then and don't feel a pull either - I just enjoy the sounds of the song.  

[Azfarel Whitemoon]

oooooohhhh tricky one....

one thing I know about wicca is that above all it is a studious life that of a wiccan and the prime rule is that everywhere you look there is something to be learned. Under this premise one can assume that wicca is an inclusive way of life instead of an excluding one... you can take lot`s of advise from the church and shape it as you see fit to complement the path that you follow... that being said you can think of going to church as a learning opportunity rather than strictly falling into the exclusive lines of that church.

correct me in anything wrong I`ve said please.... I`m not a wiccan I am an ecclectic type of guy that has a spiritual formation ranging from druidism to shamanism to some wiccan believes (I do celebrate the major hollidays as the ought to be celebrated)... I try to learn from everything so I tend to sometimes miss perspective... just sometimes hehehe  

[Esselean]

Violet Song jat Shariff

Taikiko

So, if you find yourself in a predicament where you wish to be a witch, but find yourself in the predicament where you must sing Christian or catholic religious based songs, is that bad? I'm in many choirs and lots of our songs are either catholic or christian oriented, but i'm not feeling a pull to them. Is it bad?

Why would it be a predicament? Christianity has plenty of beautiful hymns. It doesn't make one less Pagan-y or witchy to sing some hymns or even enjoy them neutral I find myself humming one now and then and don't feel a pull either - I just enjoy the sounds of the song.

You can get some really amazing Christian songs can't you. I'm obsessed with music I don't care what religion it comes from if I like the song I will sing it smile  

[Morgandria]

Azfarel Whitemoon

oooooohhhh tricky one....

one thing I know about wicca is that above all it is a studious life that of a wiccan and the prime rule is that everywhere you look there is something to be learned. Under this premise one can assume that wicca is an inclusive way of life instead of an excluding one... you can take lot`s of advise from the church and shape it as you see fit to complement the path that you follow... that being said you can think of going to church as a learning opportunity rather than strictly falling into the exclusive lines of that church.

correct me in anything wrong I`ve said please.... I`m not a wiccan I am an ecclectic type of guy that has a spiritual formation ranging from druidism to shamanism to some wiccan believes (I do celebrate the major hollidays as the ought to be celebrated)... I try to learn from everything so I tend to sometimes miss perspective... just sometimes hehehe

Wicca isn't an ecclectic faith. It can't be added to, or subtracted from, and still be Wicca. It is also not inclusive - Wicca is not for everyone, and is not interested in being so. The Gods of Wicca call to their priesthood, and not everyone is called to that vocation.

Wicca is not a way of life - it is a specific practice, and one that has little to no application to everyday situations or living. It isn't meant to be revealed to non-initiates, either, so no Wiccan who is honouring their oaths to coven and Gods is going to start using Wiccan practices in an inappropriate or public manner.

Wicca is an orthopraxy. It is not about belief, but rather about practice. The practice of Wicca does require an understanding of certain concepts, but they don't require belief - they are heavily influenced by their proximity to the orthopraxy itself, and away from that may not be the same, or nescessary.

The nature of Wicca is such that those who are not initiated into its' Mysteries never know, or understand, what exactly Wicca is.  

[kage no neko]

I've been wanting to go to a Catholic church lately. I've pretty much only ever been to Baptist churches, and I wonder what the difference would be. Interested in learning how they do things and what they'd be teaching that day.
From what I understand, I'd be welcomed. Because even if I'm not Christian, if they can convert me, who'd be complaining. wink As long as I'm respectful, no problems in going though I'm a different religion.