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Violet Song jat Shariff Crew
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 Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:47 pm
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Zabora Leonheart Morgandria Zabora Leonheart i have no problem with her at all. However I feel she is for beginers. I am sorry you all have a problem with her but I dont. I would recomend her to a beginer. However after that I would move on to Raymond buckland. I like his writtings as well as cunninghams and conway. I'm confused as to why you think that liars and oathbreakers with poor scholarship are valid sources and good information for beginners. Ok let me see if I can break this down to as basic a conception as possible. Not to say you are stupid or anything just so you get this on the first round without further comment on the subject by me. I will use one of your essays on this subject...Be warned its gonna get lengthy... Quote: pg. 9, par. 2 "The Spiritual Laws represent a code of ethics or morals giving the Crafter a guideline for spiritual living, whether you choose to practice as a Solitary (a Witch alone) or within a group structure. These Spiritual Laws apply to all magickal people, and most magickal individuals incorporate these laws into their group workings and their solitary practices." All Magickal people? Since when is there a Unified Pagan Ethic, and why wasn't a memo sent out? That's pure tripe. For example, if you are at all familiar with the Asatruar, you know that they follow Norse Paganism with heavy emphasis on honor and the way of the Warrior. How logical is it, then, to assume that they follow the idea of "Harm None" as do so many Neo-Wiccans? A good many non-Neo-Wiccan Witches also do not believe in any such thing as the "Rule of Three" or in limiting their options with a "Harm None" clause. That doesn't mean they prowl the streets at night looking for someone to smite, it simply means they won't hesitate to smite under the right circumstances. Personally I believe there is enough violence without the aid of some dumbass weilding magick.
Great...but why does your personal belief on the state of affairs in the world at large trump the values and beliefs of someone else? What makes yours superior to someone elses?
Quote: That isnt to say that they cant do it. Just that they are dumb for hurting others without cause.
You know, unless you know the intimate details of every situtation in which a curse or hex is leveled, you would probably do best to still your judgments of "Theyr dum 4 duin dat!"
Some people follow paths that try to do as little harm as possible. Some follow paths in which a person is morally and ethically bound to take revenge if they are wronged. Please explain why your white-light, don't-hurt-anyone view is superior to the hearth cultures of other people.
Quote: If you have read anything on Dutch pow-wow (you know that Ravenwolf is big on pow-wow) they would inflict harm on those that have harmed them.
I don't believe I am familiar with Dutch pow-wow.
Quote: However isnt it just better to do prevenative magick instead of hoarding bad karma from inflicting conflict on others?
As I've stated above, some traditions make revenge a moral and ethical requirement. Preventative magic means s**t.
Quote: Quote: pg. 13, par. 3 & 5 "Real Witches do not... ...hurt people physically, mentally, spiritually, or magickally. Witches have taken an oath to help people, not hurt people. You are not a real Witch if you hurt anybody. ...work black magick - that's those other guys. Real Witches know that whatever you do, whether in this world or the magickal world, comes back to you three times. If you do good stuff, then you get rewarded. If you do bad stuff, you pay the price - and, let me add, you will pay dearly. Wiccans have a poem that goes: Ever mind the rule of three, what you give out comes back to thee." Oh please. Just because someone doesn't conform to the ethical standpoint of her personal choice, they aren't a "Real Witch"? As for the "Rule of Three" and "Harm None" see my prior comment. A friend of mine is a decendent of a black magick practicing witch. It is her grandmother. But again. This is a book for beginners. Why do you want someone running around torturing animals and killing things for the energy of death? Thats what Ana's (my friend) grandmother does. Here I believe she is talking about being a good witch. She doesnt want to incourage people to do wrong.
If your friend's grandmother is truly torturing animals and not killing them in a clean, humane manner you should probably be contacting local authorities on the matter. Killing an animal as a sacrifice in a humane, clean manner isn't generally frowned upon.
And I don't see how a book is advocating the killing and torturing of animals by simply giving a statement along the lines of "it must be done carefully and with respect to the animals" rather than "OMG u rnt a reel wytch if u sakrafyc mamminals!" Because really, if some kiddo is that intent on killing animals anyways I don't see how much sway a book is going to have over him/her.
Quote: Quote: pg. 14, par. 7 "...drink or use blood in any way from animals, themselves, or any person (alive or dead). How you like your steak has nothing to do with the Craft." **BZZZZT** Blood Magick is quite an old practice, and there are most certainly Traditions of Witchcraft today which do incorporate blood in some spells and ritual. It definitely isn't for everyone, even though the blood is often obtained in a non-violent manner such as harvesting menstrual blood, but it is done nonetheless. Also, this statement most definitely maligns religions such as Santeria and Vodoun, which do utilize blood sacrifice in some instances. Yes blood magick has been used for a long time but the fact is that it was used to tie spell work to the person preforming it. And we no longer have to do that anymore. We can use nail clippings or a strand of hair...
Are you not familiar with blooding of runes?
Quote: It is just kind of an outdated practice in Wicca.
I believe you mean witchcraft, not Wicca.
Quote: What if someone screwed up a spell and used blood to bind the spell to them?
Are you implying that if someone screws something up, that they should not be held accountable and responsible for it? confused
Quote: They could hurt themselves or those around them. Thats just not right. If you use blood magick make sure you know what you are doing first.
No actually I see it as a wonderful thing. It teaches them in a way that they won't soon forget that magic in general is nothing to ******** around with. It's a beautiful lesson, beautifully taught in that manner. It'd be an even bigger wrong to let said person walk away unscathed and without the lesson.
Quote: Quote: pg. 14, par. 11 "...summon demons. We simply are not that dumb." Goetia, anyone? While this practice would certainly be more common in groups which lean more heavily towards Ceremonial Magick, the summoning of entities, including demons, to serve or perform a specific purpose is centuries old. To suggest that someone is not a "Real Witch" simply because they happen to do so is ludicrous. Demons in my oppinion dont exist. We may summon elementals and the elements and what have you but why bring darkness to your work?
Great. Why does your opinion trump the CM orders out there that have rituals summoning demons?
Why does all working have to be "light"?
Quote: Quote: pg. 15, par. 2 "...use Satanic symbols. The Witches' pentacle, or five-pointed star point-up within a circle, represents the four elements and the human, encompassed by Spirit. The pentacle has nothing to do with Satanism, and Witches get very, very upset with people who match the point-up pentacle with Satanism. Just as Witches do not invert the Christian cross, they don't appreciate it when someone inverts their symbol either." This is absolutely beyond laughable. I'm nearly at a loss as to where to even begin. Yes, the pentacle is representative of the five Elements (Spirit or Akasha, Air, Fire, Water, and Earth). With the point up, it represents Spirit ascendant above matter. Inverted it represents Spirit descending into matter. For someone who claims to be an initiated Elder of Wicca, she seems completely ignorant of the symbolism used in Second Degree initiation (which is not yet Elder status) by admonishing her readers that inverting the pentacle is a "bad thing". As to the use of the inverted pentacle as a Satanic symbol, it would stand to reason that it is used by them as such specifically because it represents Spirit descending into matter. Since many Satanists, particularly the LaVeyan Satanists, worship the self rather than any literal entity known as Satan, glorifying the practitioner as divinity in flesh and materialism are natural, logical steps with the symbolism. Upright or inverted, the pentacle has no moral "value" beyond that which the observer delegates to it, and what is implied by the context in which it is used. Personally I dont like the use of the pentacle being used by Satanists.
Too bad, I suppose.
Quote: It has nothing to do with the religion.
My that's a powerful statment for someone who doesn't even follow Satanism!
What do you know about Satanism anyways?
Quote: And in one of her later books she does say that they do use an inverted pentacle when going into a second degree of progress in the Black Forest Clan.
I believe that it is used in second degree initiations in Wicca as well. Not to confuse BFC with proper Wicca of course!
Quote: The use of the pentacle by satanists just helps associate the devil with Wicca and that entity has nothing to do with Wicca in the least.
>_<
Of course, that would only remain true if someone could not tell the difference between a right-side-up pentagram and an inverted pentagram.
Quote: Quote: pg. 19, par. 2 "Real Witches do... ...know that the art of magick is our greatest gift. If we work bad magick, Spirit will take our gift(s) from us. If we work positive magick, then that good energy will return to us threefold." Nice heavy-handed moral manipulation. Oddly reminiscent of "do as I say or you're doomed to burn in Hell." I dont have a problem with stating that Karma can be a real b***h.
I don't think you know what actual, Eastern Karma is, frankly.
Quote: Quote: pg. 101, par 1 "The textbook definition of 'magick' goes something like this: Using one's will to create form. Magick requires belief in a higher power, and faith in yourself. I've written scads of material on magick, and have read hundreds of books on the topic as well. I've thought about magick, talked about magick, and practiced magick for over twenty years. I've discovered that just as many religions exist in the world, so too many magickal systems present themselves from which the student may choose. I've learned that just as no religion is better than another, so too no magickal system outshines another. And I've learned that a magickal system isn't worth squat unless you plug that system into a religion." What?!?! Ye Gods, what a mess! First and foremost, the creation of form is rarely a goal in Magickal work. Change, yes, but not form. As Aleister Crowley defined it, Magick is "The Art and Science of creating change in conformity with Will." I've found no better definition to date. Magick requires a belief in a higher power? I guess someone had better inform the Atheist and Agnostic mages I've had the pleasure of conversing with. What I really love though, is the way she states here that no religion and no Magickal system is better than another, then turns around and states that a Magickal system is worthless if not plugged into a religion in the next breath. Simply amazing. What you dont want your magick to work? Creation of form just means coming to fruit.
If she means "coming to fruition" then she should probably say exactly that.
Quote: Bringing about the change you want. For Ravenwolf it isnt just science. It is a religion. Religion requires belief. Just ask anyone with a religion.
I'm more inclined to see this all as a cash-cow to Ravenwolf.
Why do science and religion have to be mutually exclusive?
Quote: Quote: pg. 102, par. 1 "Whether you practice folk magick or ceremonial magick, both systems used in a positive way have the following in common: All magick contains prayer. All magick incorporates divinity. All magick concentrates on positive change." All magick most certainly does not incorporate prayer, as any practitioner of over twenty years should well know. Prayer is the petitioning of a deity to cause something to occur. In Magick, the caster is working to cause that change themself. They may certainly incorporate prayer to petition a deity to aid in reaching the desired outcome of the spell, but that is not necessary. How is spell work not a form of prayer?
Because prayer involves petitioning deity.
Spellwork does not necessarily involve deity.
Comprende?
Quote: Are you not using tools to help you gain something? Using your focused energy to create change is prayer. It may just not be your deffinition of prayer.
Ha!
Tools are irrelevant.
Using focused energy to bring about change is magic.
Communing with deity is prayer.
Your definition does not trump the actual definition of words.
Quote: Quote: pg. 104, par. 3 "Every magickal application, whether we are talking about spellwork, ritual, drumming, singing, et cetera, involves prayer - making a request to Spirit, honoring Spirit, or celebrating God all involve divinity. Every act of magick begins with a desire...and a prayer." See above. Yeah see my other statement.
As well.
Quote: Quote: pg. 106, par. 2 "To evoke means to bring forth from within ourselves an energy or force outward into the universe." She says she's been practicing Magick for over twenty years, and yet she doesn't even know what evocation is within a Magickal paradigm. Evoke means within. Invoke means without. To bring out magick from you is evoke. To bring in the power of the gods is to invoke.
Not going to tangle with this one as I get mussed up with the definitions at times.
Quote: Quote: pg. 130, par. 6 "The Dark Side - Witches Don't Go There Witches do not work magick to harm others and we know that no real power lies in evil." Right. That's why there are so many versions of curse, binding, and smiting, many of which have been around a good deal longer than her supposed twenty years of practice. I suppose that's also why the saying "A witch who can't harm can't heal" came about. True on this one. But again why cause chaos in this world?
Why not?
I'm sure that you are familiar with Chaos Magic?
Quote: So there ya have it. Whats wrong with this is that what we have here are nothing but oppinions both on my side and on the side of the person who wrote the problem with silver ravenwolf.
Except where the author pointed out horrible contradictions on $ilver's part.
For example, The Goetica does not cease to exist just because you don't believe in demons.
Silver is NOT the final authority on magical dealings. She has as much authority as a bowel movement.
Quote: Untill you die and go meet divinity and ask "Hey was I right in saying this or doing that?"
You know, otherworld journeying is far easier and less...permanent.
Quote: All we have are oppinions and here is mine. I have learned much from silver ravenwolf and I have never had a problem with my magick but one time. And that was my own fault for making my petition to tightly knit. As opposed to letting some slack hang for Spirit to bring about manifestation.
Great that you've managed to learn from her books.
However, I am doubtful that every teen, serious or not about witchcraft, would be able to do the same. To draw a parallel, it's great that you know how to handle a rifle. But I am not foolish enough to expect EVERYONE your age to know that same information.
Quote: As for the part about me supporting a liar and oathbreaker with poor scholarship are valid sources and good information, thats your oppinion.
Actually, it's not.
I wonder if you had bothered to read the other two essays...since in "Tarnished Silver" that author quotes Silver as saying there is no difference between Wicca and witchcraft. That's utter s**t. Wicca is a specific religion. Witchcraft is a craft, not tied down to specific deities or theology.
Also, in the "Tarnished Silver" essay, that author gives the lineage that Ravenwolf ignorantly boasted for gods know how many years. If you can't tell what's wrong with that lineage, you should probably go back and start at square one with a clean slate.
In the "Why We Despise..." essay, that author pulls out the example of Ravenwolf's creative re-telling of how the "one God" came into play.
I'm sorry, but no matter how hard you believe it, the theories of Murray are not and will not ever, ever, be restored to fact.
Then there's Ravenwolf's gross overstatment of how many people were put to death during that ever-handy fluff flag of "Teh Burnyng Tymez!" You don't have to look very far (or very hard, for that matter) to see that 9 million is utter crap.
And do you suppose the bit about encouraging kids to lie to their parents and say that they're working with angels is acceptable?
What about pestering and making a nuisance of themselves until they have Ravenwolf's book in their grubby little hands? Is that permissible?
Quote: And as for not doing the reserch yourself on her and taking my word for it, that makes you a sheep that needs to be herded and cared for. Instead of the lion who hunts its prey and has the instict to survive.
xd
Oh the irony.
I don't buy her books because I don't have money to waste. Toilet paper is expensive as it is; I don't need to spend the extra just to get it in a pretty cover.
I dare say that if you are blatantly ignoring the actual inaccuracies pointed out with Ravenwolf's books rather than investigating them further on your own, you are probably just as much a sheep as you accuse the rest of us to be. So welcome to the fold. BAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
What kind of instinct do you have to survive if you can not take and accept the well-thought out criticisms of Ravenwolf?
Quote: This is not to say anyone on here is a Sheep. Just trying to make a point.
Just because you add the "not to say you're sheep" statement doesn't suddenly retract the fact that you DID just call us all sheep.
Just because your favorite author doesn't have a backbone and a sense of honesty doesn't mean you should do away with yours too!
Your points have been noted. And utterly destroyed. Thanks for playing biggrin |
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:16 pm
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Zabora Leonheart Personally I believe there is enough violence without the aid of some dumbass weilding magick. That isnt to say that they cant do it. Just that they are dumb for hurting others without cause. If you have read anything on Dutch pow-wow (you know that Ravenwolf is big on pow-wow) they would inflict harm on those that have harmed them. However isnt it just better to do prevenative magick instead of hoarding bad karma from inflicting conflict on others?
Karma is an eastern concept - it has no place on my path or in many Western traditions, and the bastardized version commonly bandied about in North America bears no resemblance to the original concept.
Karma is not about stacking up deeds in "good" or "bad" columns. It neither rewards nor punishes, and is virtually unintelligble as a concept without the inclusion of dharma.
Karma is absolutely irrelevant to me. My moral path is based on the concepts of honour and hospitality. I undertake actions as I see fit, according to my honour, and accept the consequences of my actions.
Zabora Leonheart A friend of mine is a decendent of a black magick practicing witch. It is her grandmother. But again. This is a book for beginners. Why do you want someone running around torturing animals and killing things for the energy of death? Thats what Ana's (my friend) grandmother does. Here I believe she is talking about being a good witch. She doesnt want to incourage people to do wrong.
Magic (no k, thanks) is up to a person's will and intent. Again, good and bad are in the eyes of the beholder - not everyone has the same moral code as you, and you shouldn't assume so. What you consider torture might be to her appropriate animal sacrifice - don't be so quick to judge.
So...good witch, bad witch? No. Witches, period. Just because you don't understand why someone works the way they do, doesn't nescessarily make it 'bad'.
I'm not saying that there's room for all practices - there are some things that I think universally should be condemned - but you might be hasty in judging another's path without examining it from a more educated position.
Zabora Leonheart Yes blood magick has been used for a long time but the fact is that it was used to tie spell work to the person preforming it. And we no longer have to do that anymore. We can use nail clippings or a strand of hair...It is just kind of an outdated practice in Wicca. What if someone screwed up a spell and used blood to bind the spell to them? They could hurt themselves or those around them. Thats just not right. If you use blood magick make sure you know what you are doing first.
Are you an initiated Wiccan of a valid tradition? If not, please don't presume to speak for Wiccans.
Also, I'm getting the sense you're saying Wicca=witchcraft, here. And it doesn't. Wicca is far more than magic, and practicing magic doesn't make you Wiccan.
There are aspects of proper Wiccan practice that require blood.
And if a Wiccan's preferred style of magic involves blood, that's their choice.
Zabora Leonheart Demons in my oppinion dont exist. We may summon elementals and the elements and what have you but why bring darkness to your work?
Great. You have another opinion. Which does not change the fact that there are traditions of magic that work with demons, and that some people do indeed prefer them over traditions that don't include demons.
Darkness, death, decay, and disorder - chaos - is a natural part of our world. If your path is that shallow, all sunshine and flowers, you're only getting half the picture - and half the understanding. And if you're a Wiccan, you don't get to ignore it because you find it ugly or distasteful. Life is dark and light.
Zabora Leonheart Personally I dont like the use of the pentacle being used by Satanists. It has nothing to do with the religion. And in one of her later books she does say that they do use an inverted pentacle when going into a second degree of progress in the Black Forest Clan. The use of the pentacle by satanists just helps associate the devil with Wicca and that entity has nothing to do with Wicca in the least.
Gerald Gardner himself believed, and wrote, that the Devil was in fact the Greek god Pan, demonized and vilified. This is a part of the foundation he built Wicca on!
The pentacle has existed for thousands of years before Wicca - and it is used by all sorts of paths for different purposes. The Christians in the Middle Ages associated it with the five wound of Christ - so technically if you're gonna get angry with it being associated with things that aren't Wicca, there's a lot more in that line than just the Satanists.
It's an ancient symbol. Just because Wiccans use it doesn't mean they have sole claim.
Zabora Leonheart I dont have a problem with stating that Karma can be a real b***h.
Too bad Karma doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.
Zabora Leonheart What you dont want your magick to work? Creation of form just means coming to fruit. Bringing about the change you want. For Ravenwolf it isnt just science. It is a religion. Religion requires belief. Just ask anyone with a religion.
No. Witchcraft is not a faith - it's a CRAFT. Hense...witchcraft. It is a skill you can learn and practice. If you have faith, great. If you don't, there's still ways you can practice magic using witchcraft. It's not a religion. There are atheistic witches and atheistic magical paths.
Just because Silver says something, doesn't make it the truth. Get some critical reading skills! She's feeding you her opinions only - and they're largely unsupported by fact, which is one of the major issues we have with her. What you're doing here is like you've eaten her BS whole, and are now regurgitating it back at us, as if second-hand s**t is better than first-hand.
And for what it's worth, not all religions require belief. There are religions that are based on practice - they're orthopraxic, rather than orthodoxic. As Wicca is orthopraxic, your beliefs (or Silver's) don't really apply to it.
Zabora Leonheart How is spell work not a form of prayer? Are you not using tools to help you gain something? Using your focused energy to create change is prayer. It may just not be your deffinition of prayer.
Prayer has never been and will never be the same thing as a spell.
A prayer is an address or petition to a higher power. A spell is the sending of focused will and intent into the Universe to create an effect on your reality.
I can pray to my Gods without casting a spell. I can cast spells without petitioning a single deity, and without using a single tool.
Just because you combine the two and have to rely on both Gods and tools to create your magic, doesn't mean you get to assume that everyone else has to as well.
Zabora Leonheart Evoke means within. Invoke means without. To bring out magick from you is evoke. To bring in the power of the gods is to invoke.
Except when 'evoke' means to call an entity to a place, outside of your person. Or when "'invoke' refers to a ritual in which a spirit is drawn INSIDE a person - as in many forms of spirit possession rituals.
Zabora Leonheart True on this one. But again why cause chaos in this world? So there ya have it. Whats wrong with this is that what we have here are nothing but oppinions both on my side and on the side of the person who wrote the problem with silver ravenwolf. Untill you die and go meet divinity and ask "Hey was I right in saying this or doing that?" All we have are oppinions and here is mine. I have learned much from silver ravenwolf and I have never had a problem with my magick but one time. And that was my own fault for making my petition to tightly knit. As opposed to letting some slack hang for Spirit to bring about manifestation. As for the part about me supporting a liar and oathbreaker with poor scholarship are valid sources and good information, thats your oppinion. And as for not doing the reserch yourself on her and taking my word for it, that makes you a sheep that needs to be herded and cared for. Instead of the lion who hunts its prey and has the instict to survive. This is not to say anyone on here is a Sheep. Just trying to make a point.
All I see here is a person who has rather blindly accepted one author's personal opinion as gospel truth. The biggest problem with your 'arguments' here is that while yes, both sides have opinions, only one side is actually backed up by factual evidence. And the factual evidence is not on the side of Silver's assertions.
How dare you assume that no-one here as done their homework!
You haven't schooled anyone here - there are at least 4 of us who have read her works, done the comparative research, and seen for our own selves things that are outright wrong, patronizing, dangerous, self-indulgent.
I can definetely tell you've learned a lot from SRW. You're just as up yourself as she is.
She tells people it's ok to lie to their parents to get what they want.
She has lied in the past about having initiations and degrees in Wicca that she does not have.
Her books are riddled with historical and factual inaccuracies.
If this post is the best you have to bring to counter our arguments about Silver, I'm forced to consider you one of -her- sheep. Think for yourself; you might find it refreshing once you try it.
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:06 pm
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Ok lets see if I can explain this again...OPPINION!
Quote: Personally I believe there is enough violence without the aid of some dumbass weilding magick.
Quote: Great...but why does your personal belief on the state of affairs in the world at large trump the values and beliefs of someone else? What makes yours superior to someone elses?
I never said my oppinions trump those of others. I will simply just take up more prevenative magick to stop others from harming me.
Quote: That isnt to say that they cant do it. Just that they are dumb for hurting others without cause.
Quote: You know, unless you know the intimate details of every situtation in which a curse or hex is leveled, you would probably do best to still your judgments of "Theyr dum 4 duin dat!"
I said without cause. NOT with cause. If you want to use magick to get revenge. Fine. I can stop ya. But I aint doing it.
Quote: Some people follow paths that try to do as little harm as possible. Some follow paths in which a person is morally and ethically bound to take revenge if they are wronged. Please explain why your white-light, don't-hurt-anyone view is superior to the hearth cultures of other people. Quote: If you have read anything on Dutch pow-wow (you know that Ravenwolf is big on pow-wow) they would inflict harm on those that have harmed them. Quote: I don't believe I am familiar with Dutch pow-wow. A german form of witchcraft that said it was ok to smite those who harmed you or your kin. Quote: However isnt it just better to do prevenative magick instead of hoarding bad karma from inflicting conflict on others? Quote: As I've stated above, some traditions make revenge a moral and ethical requirement. Yes thats right. Some say its ok to whack other people with magick. Doesnt mean you have to add to the frenzy of stupid people. Quote: Preventative magic means s**t. how so? Quote: If your friend's grandmother is truly torturing animals and not killing them in a clean, humane manner you should probably be contacting local authorities on the matter. Killing an animal as a sacrifice in a humane, clean manner isn't generally frowned upon. What can I do? The woman lives in mexico. Quote: And I don't see how a book is advocating the killing and torturing of animals by simply giving a statement along the lines of "it must be done carefully and with respect to the animals" rather than "OMG u rnt a reel wytch if u sakrafyc mamminals!" Because really, if some kiddo is that intent on killing animals anyways I don't see how much sway a book is going to have over him/her. True enough. Quote: Yes blood magick has been used for a long time but the fact is that it was used to tie spell work to the person preforming it. And we no longer have to do that anymore. We can use nail clippings or a strand of hair... Quote: Are you not familiar with blooding of runes? No I am not. But I would love to get some insight on it. Quote: It is just kind of an outdated practice in Wicca. Quote: I believe you mean witchcraft, not Wicca. Yeah sorry my screw up there. Quote: What if someone screwed up a spell and used blood to bind the spell to them? Quote: Are you implying that if someone screws something up, that they should not be held accountable and responsible for it? confused Why give them the chance to screw up? Because we learn from it? Please we know whats right and whats wrong but we still do wrong because it suits our needs. Quote: They could hurt themselves or those around them. Thats just not right. If you use blood magick make sure you know what you are doing first. Quote: No actually I see it as a wonderful thing. It teaches them in a way that they won't soon forget that magic in general is nothing to ******** around with. It's a beautiful lesson, beautifully taught in that manner. It'd be an even bigger wrong to let said person walk away unscathed and without the lesson. So you are saying its ok to hurt themselves and those around them? Quote: Demons in my oppinion dont exist. We may summon elementals and the elements and what have you but why bring darkness to your work? Great. Why does your opinion trump the CM orders out there that have rituals summoning demons? Quote: Why does all working have to be "light"? Who said it did? Common knowledge states without darkness there can be no light. I am simply saying why bring about more chaos and darkness? Sure you may get what you want but really...Is keying your neighbors car because they parked in your spot wise? Quote: Personally I dont like the use of the pentacle being used by Satanists. Yep too bad. Quote: It has nothing to do with the religion. Quote: My that's a powerful statment for someone who doesn't even follow Satanism! What do you know about Satanism anyways? My friend Tim is a Satanist. But he says that he worships the body. You know indulging in the 7 deadly sins and all that. Quote: And in one of her later books she does say that they do use an inverted pentacle when going into a second degree of progress in the Black Forest Clan. Quote: I believe that it is used in second degree initiations in Wicca as well. Not to confuse BFC with proper Wicca of course! of course. Quote: The use of the pentacle by satanists just helps associate the devil with Wicca and that entity has nothing to do with Wicca in the least. Quote: >_< Of course, that would only remain true if someone could not tell the difference between a right-side-up pentagram and an inverted pentagram. No I am talking about in genral. When a christain around here sees my pentacle they usually scream "SATAN" at me... Quote: I dont have a problem with stating that Karma can be a real b***h. Quote: I don't think you know what actual, Eastern Karma is, frankly. It isnt that hard to understand. You do good you get good. You do bad you come back as a worm. Quote: What you dont want your magick to work? Creation of form just means coming to fruit. Quote: If she means "coming to fruition" then she should probably say exactly that. Cant say anything there. She should have said it. But this is just my interpretation on the matter. You know...OPPINION. Quote: Bringing about the change you want. For Ravenwolf it isnt just science. It is a religion. Religion requires belief. Just ask anyone with a religion. Quote: I'm more inclined to see this all as a cash-cow to Ravenwolf. Why do science and religion have to be mutually exclusive? I actually dont believe that religion and science are exclusive. I do believe that they are wound to gether pretty tightly. Quote: How is spell work not a form of prayer? Quote: Because prayer involves petitioning deity. Spellwork does not necessarily involve deity. Comprende? Quote: Are you not using tools to help you gain something? Using your focused energy to create change is prayer. It may just not be your deffinition of prayer. Quote: Ha! Tools are irrelevant. Using focused energy to bring about change is magic. Communing with deity is prayer. Your definition does not trump the actual definition of words. For me, not for you or anyone else but for me, when I ask diety to assist me in protecting whatever or gaining whatever its prayer. I may throw in some coins or sage here and there. But its prayer. Quote: Evoke means within. Invoke means without. To bring out magick from you is evoke. To bring in the power of the gods is to invoke. Quote: Not going to tangle with this one as I get mussed up with the definitions at times. So do I. I had to look this one up before I wrote it. Quote: True on this one. But again why cause chaos in this world? Quote: Why not? I'm sure that you are familiar with Chaos Magic? Chaos magick huh? I understand the process but I dont practice it. I have enough evil to deal with in this world brought about by humans. Why would you make things harder for people? Quote: So there ya have it. Whats wrong with this is that what we have here are nothing but oppinions both on my side and on the side of the person who wrote the problem with silver ravenwolf. Quote: Except where the author pointed out horrible contradictions on $ilver's part. For example, The Goetica does not cease to exist just because you don't believe in demons. Silver is NOT the final authority on magical dealings. She has as much authority as a bowel movement. Maybe so...but still...OPPINION. How many times do I have to say it? Maybe it is a well though out one. But bottom line...oppinion. Quote: Untill you die and go meet divinity and ask "Hey was I right in saying this or doing that?" Quote: You know, otherworld journeying is far easier and less...permanent. Here is the problem with that...You might just be imagining it because you feel it is right. Kind of like seeing a hawk fly over head and instead of seeing the hawk you see a dragon. Simply because thats what you want to see. Same goes for hearing. You hear only what you want to hear. Quote: All we have are oppinions and here is mine. I have learned much from silver ravenwolf and I have never had a problem with my magick but one time. And that was my own fault for making my petition to tightly knit. As opposed to letting some slack hang for Spirit to bring about manifestation. Quote: Great that you've managed to learn from her books. However, I am doubtful that every teen, serious or not about witchcraft, would be able to do the same. To draw a parallel, it's great that you know how to handle a rifle. But I am not foolish enough to expect EVERYONE your age to know that same information. I wouldnt expect so either. I have alot of practice in weeding out bullshit. Quote: As for the part about me supporting a liar and oathbreaker with poor scholarship are valid sources and good information, thats your oppinion. Quote: Actually, it's not. I wonder if you had bothered to read the other two essays...since in "Tarnished Silver" that author quotes Silver as saying there is no difference between Wicca and witchcraft. That's utter s**t. Wicca is a specific religion. Witchcraft is a craft, not tied down to specific deities or theology. Also, in the "Tarnished Silver" essay, that author gives the lineage that Ravenwolf ignorantly boasted for gods know how many years. If you can't tell what's wrong with that lineage, you should probably go back and start at square one with a clean slate. In the "Why We Despise..." essay, that author pulls out the example of Ravenwolf's creative re-telling of how the "one God" came into play. I'm sorry, but no matter how hard you believe it, the theories of Murray are not and will not ever, ever, be restored to fact. Then there's Ravenwolf's gross overstatment of how many people were put to death during that ever-handy fluff flag of "Teh Burnyng Tymez!" You don't have to look very far (or very hard, for that matter) to see that 9 million is utter crap. Why read into the OPPINIONS of others. No matter what is said, my mind can only be changed by me. Quote: And do you suppose the bit about encouraging kids to lie to their parents and say that they're working with angels is acceptable? What about pestering and making a nuisance of themselves until they have Ravenwolf's book in their grubby little hands? Is that permissible? Ok so she could have worded that better. However about working with angels and beings of light? Whats wrong with that? You yourself have pointed out numorus times the 'demons' that can be summoned with the Craft. Quote: And as for not doing the reserch yourself on her and taking my word for it, that makes you a sheep that needs to be herded and cared for. Instead of the lion who hunts its prey and has the instict to survive. Quote: xd Oh the irony. I don't buy her books because I don't have money to waste. Toilet paper is expensive as it is; I don't need to spend the extra just to get it in a pretty cover. Who said you had to buy them? Ever hear of the library? I was stating here that people need to weed through everyones bullshit yours mine and everyone elses. Because when it comes right down to it, you go with what feels right. Who are you or I to say what is right for one person's religion? Quote: I dare say that if you are blatantly ignoring the actual inaccuracies pointed out with Ravenwolf's books rather than investigating them further on your own, you are probably just as much a sheep as you accuse the rest of us to be. So welcome to the fold. BAAAAAAAAA!!!!! What kind of instinct do you have to survive if you can not take and accept the well-thought out criticisms of Ravenwolf? I can understand what the author of this essay was saying. I just think that they need to swallow a big dose of reality and accept that people can learn from her. If like you said not all of them can. Really isnt anything you can do except tell people who are new to the craft to not buy her books right? Running smear campains is kinda tacky. Quote: This is not to say anyone on here is a Sheep. Just trying to make a point. Quote: Just because you add the "not to say you're sheep" statement doesn't suddenly retract the fact that you DID just call us all sheep. Just because your favorite author doesn't have a backbone and a sense of honesty doesn't mean you should do away with yours too! I really wasnt calling anyone a sheep. I was simply stating that eventually you got to weed through the OPPINIONS of people and go with what feels right to you. And who said she was my favorit author? I am quite fond of Buckland myself.
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:11 pm
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:54 pm
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:55 pm
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Zabora Leonheart Ok lets see if I can explain this again...OPPINION!
Alright. I know, the huge quote-rape was hard to follow, so I'll say it again. In all capital letters, and bold in case it's hard to read this text.
IT IS NOT A MATTER OF OPINION. RAVENWOLF IS OBJECTIVELY WRONG ABOUT CERTAIN THINGS IN HER BOOKS.
Also, your quote-tag-fu is weak.
Quote: I never said my oppinions trump those of others. I will simply just take up more prevenative magick to stop others from harming me.
The whole premise of most of your points rests on your own personal views as somehow being superior or higher than others.
Quote: I said without cause. NOT with cause. If you want to use magick to get revenge. Fine. I can stop ya. But I aint doing it.
ROFL I highly doubt you could stop anyone xd
What defines "with cause?" Someone kicks my dog. That enough cause for me. Perhaps not for you.
Quote: A german form of witchcraft that said it was ok to smite those who harmed you or your kin.
Alright. I can dig that.
Quote: Yes thats right. Some say its ok to whack other people with magick. Doesnt mean you have to add to the frenzy of stupid people.
Why are you equating set, specific traditions who have allotments for revenge with silly teenage kids who cast because it's "kewl"?
Metihnks you don't really understand those traditions!
Perhaps it may not be a total waste.
Conceded on that part.
Quote: What can I do? The woman lives in mexico.
Oh booo-hoo.
rolleyes .
So now it's not just a matter of you judging her magical or spiritual practices, now you're judging what may well be a cultural standard?
I hope that pedestal you're on doesn't start to wobble!
Quote: No I am not. But I would love to get some insight on it.
When a runeworker bloods their runes, they are literally painting the rune disks with their blood. It ties the runes to their owner.
In a lot of modern practice it is more common to mix in a few drops of blood with ochre. Same wonderful color, less blood involved. And don't get me started on people who suggest using menstrual blood stare
Quote: Yeah sorry my screw up there.
No worries.
Quote: Why give them the chance to screw up? Because we learn from it?
Some people learn their lessons better from experience.
Little kid putting their hand on the hot stove, for instance.
Quote: Please we know whats right and whats wrong but we still do wrong because it suits our needs.
If someone is doing something to suit their needs, I'm pretty sure they view it as something right. It might be wrong by your standards, but we know how much sway those hold over all 3nodding .
Quote: So you are saying its ok to hurt themselves and those around them?
If they learn from it, yes.
That kind of direct kick in the pants works wonders.
You have this fixation on things being "right" and "good" and "light." So..you.
Quote: Common knowledge states without darkness there can be no light. I am simply saying why bring about more chaos and darkness?
Why is chaos = darkness?
Quote: Sure you may get what you want but really...Is keying your neighbors car because they parked in your spot wise?
Assuming that is the immediate action one would take.
Other than that...that's a stretch.
Quote: My friend Tim is a Satanist. But he says that he worships the body. You know indulging in the 7 deadly sins and all that.
Great. So he's a LeVayan Satanist.
They're really of no threat to you and your precious image among people who probably don't give a s**t who you are and what you do anyways biggrin
Quote: No I am talking about in genral. When a christain around here sees my pentacle they usually scream "SATAN" at me...
Wow. Maybe that's because according to their theology, anyone not worshiping YHVH is working with Satan??
Amazing what a little more knowledge and a little less "more-persecuted-than-thou" will do!
Quote: It isnt that hard to understand. You do good you get good. You do bad you come back as a worm.
ROFL!!!
WRONG.
Karma goes along with Dharma.
Dharma is your life path; what you're sort of destined to do in your life.
Karma is earned when one acts in ways that are contrary to their life path.
Now, please point out to me where that infers "do good, get good. Do bad, get bad."
FFS, It's OPINION. If you're going to rest your whole argument on something so subjective, at least spell the damn word right!
Quote: I actually dont believe that religion and science are exclusive. I do believe that they are wound to gether pretty tightly.
As do I.
It's kind of troublesome then to boast that Ravenwolf doesn't see it as a science, but a religion.
Quote: For me, not for you or anyone else but for me, when I ask diety to assist me in protecting whatever or gaining whatever its prayer. I may throw in some coins or sage here and there. But its prayer.
Communicating with deity, be it to give thanks, ask for a boon, or just say hi is prayer. Yes.
Spellwork is shaping and focusing your will to bring about change. It does not have to involve deity.
These concepts are not hard to understand.
Quote: Chaos magick huh? I understand the process but I dont practice it. I have enough evil to deal with in this world brought about by humans. Why would you make things harder for people?
Magic. No K. THX.
Oh yes. The weight of the world's evil rests solely on your shoulders and you're the only one who ever has to deal with it rolleyes . Spare me.
How do you know that an act of chaos makes things harder for everyone? I'm sure for a follower of Eris or Loki the chaos makes for quite the offering and/or amusement.
You strike me as having an unhealthy view of chaos and anything that remotely smells of being negative.
Quote: Maybe so...but still...OPPINION.
NO.
Srsly. I'm starting to not even give two shits about your damn opinion. It's been debunked. It's been proven objectively wrong.
Only the most wilfully ignorant hang onto opinions that have been pretty well debunked.
Congrats on being one of those people I guess?
Quote: How many times do I have to say it? Maybe it is a well though out one. But bottom line...oppinion.
Your "oppinion" does not trump objective reality. I don't care how often you try to believe it does.
Quote: Here is the problem with that...You might just be imagining it because you feel it is right. Kind of like seeing a hawk fly over head and instead of seeing the hawk you see a dragon. Simply because thats what you want to see.
Honestly, if one thinks they see a dragon when a hawk is flying over, they should seek medical help.
And you have quite the set of brass ones to call into question the experiences and help that otherworld journeymen have provided. Of course, I suppose it's easy to sit there and shrug things off when it's not your a** on the line doing it.
Quote: Same goes for hearing. You hear only what you want to hear.
Yea. We get that this is a quality that you embody. Especially in this conversation.
Quote: I wouldnt expect so either. I have alot of practice in weeding out bullshit.
It would seem not enough though.
Quote: Why read into the OPPINIONS of others.
BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT OPINIONS. THEY ARE OBJECTIVE, HISTORICAL FACT.
Quote: No matter what is said, my mind can only be changed by me.
Spoken like a true fluffy.
Nice to know where you stand exactly now.
Quote: Ok so she could have worded that better. However about working with angels and beings of light? Whats wrong with that?
Because angels have no place in anything remotely Pagan? Because angels don't cater to mortals. They are the messengers, the war-bringers of YHVH. They don't give two craps if you need a new iPod or not.
Quote: You yourself have pointed out numorus times the 'demons' that can be summoned with the Craft.
Demons aren't necessarily the messengers and warlords of a deity.
Quote: Who said you had to buy them? Ever hear of the library?
I'm sorry, but do you know how hard it is to just find parking to get to the library where I live? Do you know how far from the library I live in my city?
Anyways. I wouldn't waste the time or trip just to check that dreck out of the library.
Quote: I was stating here that people need to weed through everyones bullshit yours mine and everyone elses. Because when it comes right down to it, you go with what feels right. Who are you or I to say what is right for one person's religion?
So, if I decide that making other people's lives Hell and killing puppies and having sex with their dead bodies is what feels right, that's what I go with?
Congratulations, your argument is now eating itself.
Quote: I can understand what the author of this essay was saying. I just think that they need to swallow a big dose of reality
ROFL!
I love when you say wonderfully ironic things like that xd
Quote: and accept that people can learn from her.
And the majority are most likely to be horridly mislead by her.
For someone who is so against "chaos" and "darkness" it really is a huge curiosity that you can encourage the mess that her books bring about!
Quote: If like you said not all of them can. Really isnt anything you can do except tell people who are new to the craft to not buy her books right? Running smear campains is kinda tacky.
Oh? Who is running a smear campaign?
It's also kind of tacky to come into a guild and tell people who know better that they're sheep just because they don't fall in and agree with your "oppinion" on an author.
Quote: I really wasnt calling anyone a sheep.
Except you did:
Zabora Leonheart calling people who won't read Ravenwolf sheep that makes you a sheep that needs to be herded and cared for
Might I point out the added irony of you saying that about people who won't read Ravenwolf and investigate her claims, when you're not even willing to investigate her claims either??
Either fess up and apologize or backpedal faster.
Quote: I was simply stating that eventually you got to weed through the OPPINIONS of people and go with what feels right to you. And who said she was my favorit author? I am quite fond of Buckland myself.
So still...your favorite author is an oath-breaker and a culture rapist. You should be quite proud. I can't figure out if that's a step up or a step down rofl |
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Violet Song jat Shariff Crew
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:30 pm
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Quote: Common knowledge states without darkness there can be no light. I am simply saying why bring about more chaos and darkness?
I know I'm completely ignoring any number of other things (like SRW is not a good authority on anything - ever), but this is one of my favorites, so I thought I'd share...
Quote: Chaos - where great dreams begin Before a great vision can become reality there may be difficulty. Before a person begins a great endeavor, they may encounter chaos. As a new plant breaks the ground with great difficulty, foreshadowing the huge tree, so must we somthimes push against difficulty in bringing forth our dreams. " Out of Chaos, Brilliant Stars are Born". I-Ching Hexagram #3 |
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:56 pm
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Violet Song jat Shariff Crew
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:52 pm
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:54 pm
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:42 pm
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Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:57 am
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I think my main issue would be in cases where people want to use her books as a springboard to practicing Wicca (trad in particular - but even "neo/eclectic" style paths). Though she has since stopped using the word herself, many of her older books still do, and it is very misleading. Again, it's not telling something what/how they can practice, but making sure that they are building that practice on sound principles and facts.
If someone has done well rounded research and (for whatever reason) still chooses to practice SRW brand of witchcraft, then that's their choice. I may not agree with it, especially since she seems to imply that witchcraft is all light, and love and sparkly - when it's not, but you are right it's not my place to tell them they can't, and I would never presume to do so. However, if someone asks specifically, I'm going to let them know what I think about it, and if they are trying to pass off erroneous (or even something that is highly debatable) info as truth, I'm going to probably have something to say about that as well.
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Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:41 pm
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Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:10 pm
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:55 pm
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