USE OF THE WORD WICCA

[Brass Bell Doll]

I like the first page of the thread. It's great to have such informed positions on Wicca!

I feel like it left some huge questions, tho. And plenty of them.

Do you mind if I break it up some so I don't feel overwhelmed?  

[kage no neko]

Brass Bell Doll

I like the first page of the thread. It's great to have such informed positions on Wicca!

I feel like it left some huge questions, tho. And plenty of them.

Do you mind if I break it up some so I don't feel overwhelmed?

Questions are generally welcomed. 3nodding Best way to learn is to ask.  

[ncsweet]

Brass Bell Doll

I like the first page of the thread. It's great to have such informed positions on Wicca!

I feel like it left some huge questions, tho. And plenty of them.

Do you mind if I break it up some so I don't feel overwhelmed?

Sure... ask away!! biggrin  

[Brass Bell Doll]

I was reading on orthopraxy and Wicca and it didn't make a lot of sense to me. I sent some emails to understand why my friends hadn't spoken of their religion in these terms before.

My friends who are Wiccan (mostly Alexandrians, though some have been initiated into other Wiccan lines) replied that it's the secrets and experiences that are what make Wicca what it is. They said that proper practice is a form of insurance, not what makes a person Wiccan because a person could go through the experiences and fail to grasp the Mysteries.

They also said that the Mysteries are already within the Seeker and that such practice is there to help them understand them.

I also felt confused, because I do not understand how the first passage quoted of Gardner implies orthopraxy.

Quote:

It would take many people a long time, if I understand the directions aright. If these arts were more generally practised nowadays, we should call most of them spiritualism, mesmerism, suggestion, E.S.P., Yoga or perhaps Christian Science; to a witch it is all MAGIC, and magic is the art of getting results. To do this certain processes are necessary and the rites are such that these processes may be used.

I can understand that there are processes, but it also suggests that these are part of other practices, and it's all about getting results.

Would this mean that if a Wiccan isn't able to get results a certain way, that the art of getting results would require someone to practice a different way?
If they still experience and understand the Mysteries, wouldn't they still be Wiccan?  

[ncsweet]

Quote:

My friends who are Wiccan (mostly Alexandrians, though some have been initiated into other Wiccan lines) replied that it's the secrets and experiences that are what make Wicca what it is. They said that proper practice is a form of insurance, not what makes a person Wiccan because a person could go through the experiences and fail to grasp the Mysteries. They also said that the Mysteries are already within the Seeker and that such practice is there to help them understand them.

I'd say that is probably more or less correct. My understanding of it (not being Wiccan myself) is that it is through the "correct practices" that one is able to properly experience and understand the Mysteries. So in and of itself it's not so much the practices that make them what they are, but what they learn/experience because of them, when they are done in the correct manner.

Quote:

Would this mean that if a Wiccan isn't able to get results a certain way, that the art of getting results would require someone to practice a different way? If they still experience and understand the Mysteries, wouldn't they still be Wiccan?

He says that "magic is the art of getting results", so while the statement might apply to magical workings in general, his other statements lead one to believe that Wicca has specific requirements. Again I'm sort of hampered by the fact that I'm not an initiate, so I'm left at making my best guesses on some of this. I don't think the "orthopraxy" part of Wicca means that every single thing has a "correct practice" associated with it (if that makes sense). I think the orthopraxy is simply in relation to the core material, but outside of the core, it's probably very much a case of "use whatever works".  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

There are also two elements to be considered:

The only way to experience the Mysteries is via these experiential rituals.
Beliefs can differ from Wiccan to Wiccan, including understanding of deity.

It's the rituals that are the defining aspect rather than beliefs for this reason, and it's not a folk religion because practices don't really vary from coven to coven. Mind, individual Wiccans may not use the term "orthopraxy".  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Sanguina Cruenta

The only way to experience the Mysteries is via these experiential rituals.

This seems to echo ncsweet's position, but it more clearly illustrates the problem I am having.

ncsweet

I'd say that is probably more or less correct. My understanding of it (not being Wiccan myself) is that it is through the "correct practices" that one is able to properly experience and understand the Mysteries.

When I read this, it confused me. I feel it suggests that one can go through the motions, and that is what makes one Wiccan. This brought me to question what role the gods of Wicca play in selecting their priests and priestesses.

I feel that is likely not your intention, but when I questioned the Queen I know, she said that it isn't the case that the practices are what makes someone Wiccan.

She said that the practices are the way she and others ensure their oaths are upheld, since it is possible for someone to understand the Mysteries because of their relationship with the gods, but that there is no way for other Wiccans to be sure of this outside the controlled conditions of the coven.

She also said that it was possible for Seekers to follow the practices correctly, but not obtain the Mysteries.

ncsweet

He says that "magic is the art of getting results", so while the statement might apply to magical workings in general, his other statements lead one to believe that Wicca has specific requirements. Again I'm sort of hampered by the fact that I'm not an initiate, so I'm left at making my best guesses on some of this. I don't think the "orthopraxy" part of Wicca means that every single thing has a "correct practice" associated with it (if that makes sense). I think the orthopraxy is simply in relation to the core material, but outside of the core, it's probably very much a case of "use whatever works".

I may be a bit dense. I do not see how the passage supports orthopraxy in the strict sense of the word.

I feel that if the passage either used the word orthopraxy, or perhaps limited the practices to the exclusion of others outright, it would make more sense to me.  

[ncsweet]

Quote:

When I read this, it confused me. I feel it suggests that one can go through the motions, and that is what makes one Wiccan.

Yes and No... it is what one experiences (knowing and understanding the Mysteries) that make them Wiccan, but following the correct practices is what gives one the framework for properly experiencing/understanding them.

I do think that it would be completely possible to just "go through the motions" (as sad as that would be), if one was working with a coven that maybe did not care enough to ensure that it's initiates were actually understanding, or "getting" the Mysteries. It seems that I've read stories of either Gardner or Sanders initiating people in a very short period of time. One has to ask themselves how much those initiates really understood of the Mysteries at the time (not saying that they couldn't have understood such things in a short period of time, but still...), or were they just going through the motions because it seem like a cool thing to do at the time. They were initiated, so they can claim valid lineage, but if they didn't adhere to the correct practices, then what they practiced wouldn't be Wicca.

Quote:

She also said that it was possible for Seekers to follow the practices correctly, but not obtain the Mysteries.

Except that aren't major parts of those practices oath-bound? To this I would also add, if one wasn't really being called to serve those particular Gods, then I can see where such practices would not lead to any Mysteries.

I have heard it said by several initiates that the Gods that they were drawn to as Seekers did in fact turn out to be the Wiccan Gods, but the only way they could confirm this was though initiation.

Quote:

I may be a bit dense. I do not see how the passage supports orthopraxy in the strict sense of the word.

In the rest of the passage it says...

Being initiated into the witch cult does not give a witch supernatural powers but instructions are given, in rather veiled terms, in processes which develop various clairvoyant and other powers, in those who naturally possess them slightly.

They have instructions in how to learn to do this by practice...To do this certain processes are necessary and the rites are such that these processes may be used...In other words, they condition you. This is the secret of the cult.

Which is what speaks more to the orthopraxy than the rest of it. Conditioning of any kind, usually means repeating the same thing over and over again, until it is ingrained in you. As the beginning of the passage it says that they have "instructions" for how to do this, so it goes that one would follow those "instructions" (correct practices) repeatedly until the desired results (conditioning) have been achieved.  

[kage no neko]

ncsweet

I have heard it said by several initiates that the Gods that they were drawn to as Seekers did in fact turn out to be the Wiccan Gods, but the only way they could confirm this was though initiation.

I just wonder.. what would happen if you get initiated, are introduced to the Lord and Lady, and then realize that they're not the gods who are calling you. And how would your coven react, to hear this also..  

[Brass Bell Doll]

ncsweet

Yes and No... it is what one experiences (knowing and understanding the Mysteries) that make them Wiccan, but following the correct practices is what gives one the framework for properly experiencing/understanding them.

I feel this represents circular reasoning that isn't addressing the issues I am having.

If the Wiccan Gods grant understanding, the framework isn't what makes them Wiccan, but instead they are Wiccan because they have the Mysteries. The framework is to show others that it is safe to participate with them.

ncsweet

One has to ask themselves how much those initiates really understood of the Mysteries at the time (not saying that they couldn't have understood such things in a short period of time, but still...)

I feel such would be an inappropriate question to ask. I would much rather that the Wiccan's nature speak for themselves.

For all we know, some of them fully understood the Mysteries, and were initiated in order to simply learn the practices.

ncsweet

, or were they just going through the motions because it seem like a cool thing to do at the time. They were initiated, so they can claim valid lineage, but if they didn't adhere to the correct practices, then what they practiced wouldn't be Wicca.

I do not feel this is correct, in the sense that if Wicca is about Mysteries, and they do not have them, they surely couldn't be Wiccans.

ncsweet

Except that aren't major parts of those practices oath-bound?

She said this of people who were properly initiated.

ncsweet

In the rest of the passage it says...

Being initiated into the witch cult does not give a witch supernatural powers but instructions are given, in rather veiled terms, in processes which develop various clairvoyant and other powers, in those who naturally possess them slightly.

They have instructions in how to learn to do this by practice...To do this certain processes are necessary and the rites are such that these processes may be used...In other words, they condition you. This is the secret of the cult.

Which is what speaks more to the orthopraxy than the rest of it. Conditioning of any kind, usually means repeating the same thing over and over again, until it is ingrained in you. As the beginning of the passage it says that they have "instructions" for how to do this, so it goes that one would follow those "instructions" (correct practices) repeatedly until the desired results (conditioning) have been achieved.

If the correct practices are failing to achieve the desired results and other tools that work are available, why would the Wiccan Gods denounce someone they called and granted the Mysteries to simply because the style of the practice needed to be altered to adjust for personal limitations?  

[kage no neko]

I think that to know/learn the mysteries, you must be initiated..
Not to say that you can't learn the mysteries on your own, though unless you're Wiccan you'll never know if they're the same mysteries or not.. but unless you practice the same, it wouldn't be considered Wiccan.
Though I'm not certain what the situation would be if there are Wiccans who don't understand the mysteries. As I understand it, it's possible for people to comprehend the mysteries differently. But I don't know what those mysteries are, or how they work at all.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

kage no neko

ncsweet

I have heard it said by several initiates that the Gods that they were drawn to as Seekers did in fact turn out to be the Wiccan Gods, but the only way they could confirm this was though initiation.

I just wonder.. what would happen if you get initiated, are introduced to the Lord and Lady, and then realize that they're not the gods who are calling you. And how would your coven react, to hear this also..

I've asked this question. Apparently your teacher should be aware of this one way or the other before you are initiated; they always consult with the gods before taking on a student anyway, as I understand it, but they should be able to tell through the process of teaching you. However, I think it has happened in the past, and they left their covens. I'm not sure, though. I secretly think that I would be this sort of person wink  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Brass Bell Doll

ncsweet

Yes and No... it is what one experiences (knowing and understanding the Mysteries) that make them Wiccan, but following the correct practices is what gives one the framework for properly experiencing/understanding them.

I feel this represents circular reasoning that isn't addressing the issues I am having.

If the Wiccan Gods grant understanding, the framework isn't what makes them Wiccan, but instead they are Wiccan because they have the Mysteries. The framework is to show others that it is safe to participate with them.

I will give an example of a friend we used to know on here.

She was a 3* Gardnerian who was currently without a coven. Because of her past and initiations, she was a Wiccan, but although she was honouring those same deities alone, what she was doing wasn't Wicca.

Quote:

I feel such would be an inappropriate question to ask. I would much rather that the Wiccan's nature speak for themselves.

For all we know, some of them fully understood the Mysteries, and were initiated in order to simply learn the practices.

You're implying they knew the Mysteries somehow beforehand?

Gardner said that the Mysteries were common with many different religions (I think he mentioned the Eleusinian Mysteries as an example). The Mysteries of Wicca are not necessarily different in content, but they are the Mysteries of Wicca because they are understood in this context, and through these rituals.

It's not about understanding the process of life-death-rebirth, for example. This is a Mystery you can find in many places. But experiencing it in the context of ritual is a different process. Same Mystery, very different context, relevant to the gods of Wicca. Knowing this Mystery in the context of another faith cannot make me Wiccan, and initiation would have me experiencing this idea in a very different way.

Besides, there are Mysteries relevant to Wicca that are very specific to the religion in that they relate specifically to these gods. I get the impression that you must experience their presence through ritual (for example, in the person of one's HP/S); this is impossible outside of a lineaged coven.

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I do not feel this is correct, in the sense that if Wicca is about Mysteries, and they do not have them, they surely couldn't be Wiccans.

They are insofar as they have been initiated and can claim proper lineage. They may be crappy Wiccans or badly taught Wiccans, or the coven (or trad) in question might be a bad fit for them, but technically they are Wiccan.

This has happened before too, by the way. Anthropologists have sought initiation in order to understand Wicca (as they couldn't know it otherwise) but chose to remain detatched and removed emotionally and spiritually so that they could remain objective. As a result they did not experience the Mysteries - although this was largely because they did not allow themselves to do so. Incidentally, when they left their covens and published their work their covens were very upset. Sabina Magliocco recounts this in her book on witchcraft cultures.

I imagine whether one is considered Wiccan in these situations would vary a great deal depending on who you ask. I doubt all Wiccans agree about this sort of thing. wink

Quote:

If the correct practices are failing to achieve the desired results and other tools that work are available, why would the Wiccan Gods denounce someone they called and granted the Mysteries to simply because the style of the practice needed to be altered to adjust for personal limitations?

No one is saying they would. It's just that the practice, once altered, is not Wicca.

Whether non-Wiccans can worship the gods of Wicca is one of those topics of disagreement. The crux of it is that you couldn't tell either way unless the worshipper in question were initiated. Regardless, if one did worship these gods in ways that were not of the Wica, one would not be Wiccan. One is Wiccan upon initiation only. There's at least one individual on Amber and Jet who claims to have worshipped the gods of Wicca before initiation - that is, he worshipped these gods, was initiated, and confirms that they were the same deities as those of Wicca. He does not claim to have been Wiccan before initiation, however.

If it helps any, think of it as it is: a priesthood. "Wiccan" is a name given to those who have been initiated into the priesthood of these deities. This initiation is crucial to be priesthood (as it is in many priesthoods). The priesthood have particular rituals and they perform them in particular ways, and these ways are solely those of the priesthood. But the most important rituals are initiations; they confer energies, information, and Mysteries of priesthood. Practise your own rituals alone, change rituals if you like - but if you take away, you recognise that the rituals are not those of the priesthood.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

I feel we have found the issue behind the confusion.

The Wiccans who have spoken to me are say that being Wiccan is a matter of being a priest or a priestess who serve their gods and understand the Mysteries by the gifts the gods have given them. The motions are not what makes one a Wiccan, but instead are the only measure that mortals have to ensure that the secrets are not misused.

The Mysteries are an essential truth granted by the Wiccan Gods, which is what makes them Wiccan Mysteries, and that to imply that it is impossible for the gods to act as they would is to place a servant's opinion above that of their Masters. I feel that this is the matter that they are addressing, that they are unwilling to say the gods are incapable of doing something.

I feel the position is replacing a litmus test for the religion itself.
The litmus test is useful because it guides the priests and priestesses in ensuring that they are following the desires of their gods.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Would someone be able to explain to me why they feel that it is impossible for an initiated and lineaged Wiccan who has received the Mysteries from their god and goddess to create new rituals which would impart the Mysteries equally well?