|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:45 am
 |
|
|
 |
owenmarco ArmasTermin I saw a six-shot Mossberg 500 Persuader at my local Academy for $350. All the Remington combat shotguns they had were the older Express models with the foregrip that covers the shell elevator when the slide is back. I don't want to "settle" for anything, even if the Persuader is a fine gun. I'll have to find another local gun shop or wait for the upcoming gun show. EDIT: Oh yeah, and that Avatar movie was really good. EDIT Again: I got to handle that Persuader, and another Mossberg I didn't look at the name for. I guess I always overestimate the weight of shotguns. It was extraordinarily handy, though the rubber butt plate was a bit grabby with my jacket. How the ******** are you settling for anything? If anything, you're SETTLING with the remington, because it's not an actual combat shotgun. It's a modified bird gun, and it shows with many of their key features. Mossberg created their 500 and 590 series shotguns specifically for combat and security.
No no no, I said that wrong. I didn't mean settling for the Mossberg, I mean the idea of getting a 500 when the 590 was the one that had been contending with the Remington, just because the 500 is more available. I do NOT mean the Mossberg is inferior.
Thinking of it now, that 500's 5+1 held a good amount, without the tube extending to the end. Might make it a little more pointable. I'm going to do some looking into 500 accessory availability. It had the standard bead sight, and I was liking the idea of ghost ring sights for more slug accuracy. Those ghost rings work well enough on the SPAS-12 on Modern Warfare 2...
I was liking the idea of the bayonet lug, though... sweatdrop
There's the idea in the back of my head that I'd be biased to the 500 just because it's right there... but if Academy is a rip-off (and I'd try other gun shops first anyway...) Well I'll figure that part out. |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:46 pm
|
|
|
|
Fresnel owenmarco Fresnel ArmasTermin Mossberg has a bayonet lug, which I can see myself screwing around with. And that would be fun. will be among the last things that I add to my 870. And where does the ring on the bayonet go? Lug isn't the only thing you need. You also need a compatible point for the over-barrel portion of the bayonet. the 590 has a similar lug, but it actually has a point on the end of the magazine cap for the ring to fit. Remington extensions have a neck-down step at the end that I assume is the right size. 
As well, there are more than one who make 870 extensions. And you would be required to not only buy the gun and bayonet lug, but an extension as well. And bayonet, of course. |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:59 pm
|
|
|
|
Fresnel owenmarco Any studies to correlate the increased performance? Everyone else says they're gimmicks and worthless. For Fosters, you have a soft lead slug moving at speed, that SLAMS into the rifling. it's going to slide across them and impart no spin, but it will tighten that choke until it won't come back out, and it will lead the ******** out of it. It's not long enough to put any appreciable spin on a soft plastic sabot, either, and that's IF the polymer molds to the rifling before it exits. They're for people who are too cheap to buy a rifled barrel, and too gullible so they fall for the marketing hype instead of learning the best slug/choke combination for THEIR gun, or to do a bit of research and find out that Brennekke slugs are inherently more accurate because of a tighter fit with the bore. I cannot find ******** ANYBODY who has done any real tests on it, except one guy who did tests with saboted rounds and found a saboted round through a rifled choke is roughly as accurate as a rifled slug and an open choke, but it's FIRABLE. I'm sure you remember Box 'o Truth's tests of saboted slugs in a cylinder bore?
For the cost:worth ration, it' much more cost-efficient to match the right slug to your gun. With the increased cost of saboted slugs compared to foster or brennekke, it's not worth it in the slightest. Especially when you are going to get more accuracy out of selecting the right slug with your gun and it's widest choke. Slugs are already floating around a dollar a round. All of the sabot slugs I can find are floating around $15 for 5, meaning $3 a round! |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:54 pm
|
|
|
|
owenmarco Fresnel owenmarco Any studies to correlate the increased performance? Everyone else says they're gimmicks and worthless. For Fosters, you have a soft lead slug moving at speed, that SLAMS into the rifling. it's going to slide across them and impart no spin, but it will tighten that choke until it won't come back out, and it will lead the ******** out of it. It's not long enough to put any appreciable spin on a soft plastic sabot, either, and that's IF the polymer molds to the rifling before it exits. They're for people who are too cheap to buy a rifled barrel, and too gullible so they fall for the marketing hype instead of learning the best slug/choke combination for THEIR gun, or to do a bit of research and find out that Brennekke slugs are inherently more accurate because of a tighter fit with the bore. I cannot find ******** ANYBODY who has done any real tests on it, except one guy who did tests with saboted rounds and found a saboted round through a rifled choke is roughly as accurate as a rifled slug and an open choke, but it's FIRABLE. I'm sure you remember Box 'o Truth's tests of saboted slugs in a cylinder bore? And the thread has several testimonies. For the cost:worth ration, it' much more cost-efficient to match the right slug to your gun. With the increased cost of saboted slugs compared to foster or brennekke, it's not worth it in the slightest. Especially when you are going to get more accuracy out of selecting the right slug with your gun and it's widest choke. Slugs are already floating around a dollar a round. All of the sabot slugs I can find are floating around $15 for 5, meaning $3 a round!
Ohhhh... I think I've got it. Rifled choke tubes are a cheaper alternative to a rifled barrel when shooting CERTAIN LOADS. It works with sabots and will stabilize them to rifled slug/smoothbore accuracy, but that's not what it was designed for. Remington makes a "Buckhammer" slug which is .73" in diameter. 12 gauge is .72". The extra couple inches of rifled choke there will grab one of those SOLID and spin it hard, stabilizing it and significantly increasing accuracy. A fully-rifled barrel would do the job much more efficiently (dropping it somewhat short of saboted range, but still at rifled energy levels), but it also costs four times as much as a choke and is more difficult to switch out.
ETA: Maybe, maybe not. Remington claims their extended rifled choke is meant to be used with sabots. IDK, I'd have to see a test on that specific choke. Most rifled chokes aren't extended like the Remington. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:43 pm
|
|
|
|
Fresnel owenmarco Fresnel owenmarco Any studies to correlate the increased performance? Everyone else says they're gimmicks and worthless. For Fosters, you have a soft lead slug moving at speed, that SLAMS into the rifling. it's going to slide across them and impart no spin, but it will tighten that choke until it won't come back out, and it will lead the ******** out of it. It's not long enough to put any appreciable spin on a soft plastic sabot, either, and that's IF the polymer molds to the rifling before it exits. They're for people who are too cheap to buy a rifled barrel, and too gullible so they fall for the marketing hype instead of learning the best slug/choke combination for THEIR gun, or to do a bit of research and find out that Brennekke slugs are inherently more accurate because of a tighter fit with the bore. I cannot find ******** ANYBODY who has done any real tests on it, except one guy who did tests with saboted rounds and found a saboted round through a rifled choke is roughly as accurate as a rifled slug and an open choke, but it's FIRABLE. I'm sure you remember Box 'o Truth's tests of saboted slugs in a cylinder bore? And the thread has several testimonies. For the cost:worth ration, it' much more cost-efficient to match the right slug to your gun. With the increased cost of saboted slugs compared to foster or brennekke, it's not worth it in the slightest. Especially when you are going to get more accuracy out of selecting the right slug with your gun and it's widest choke. Slugs are already floating around a dollar a round. All of the sabot slugs I can find are floating around $15 for 5, meaning $3 a round! Testimonies with no corroborating evidence, and often no details. Just "it doesn't work". I'm looking for a scientific test with evidence, pictures, etc. Haven't found a damn thing. Ohhhh... I think I've got it. Rifled choke tubes are a cheaper alternative to a rifled barrel when shooting CERTAIN LOADS. It works with sabots and will stabilize them to rifled slug/smoothbore accuracy, but that's not what it was designed for. Remington makes a "Buckhammer" slug which is .73" in diameter. 12 gauge is .72". The extra couple inches of rifled choke there will grab one of those SOLID and spin it hard, stabilizing it and significantly increasing accuracy. A fully-rifled barrel would do the job much more efficiently (dropping it somewhat short of saboted range, but still at rifled energy levels), but it also costs four times as much as a choke and is more difficult to switch out. ETA: Maybe, maybe not. Remington claims their extended rifled choke is meant to be used with sabots. IDK, I'd have to see a test on that specific choke. Most rifled chokes aren't extended like the Remington.
It's much more efficient to buy lots of $1 slugs instead of $3+ slugs, and use the extra savings on practice. Or, buy the damn barrel and make it dedicated already, or use a rifle. With the savings from the ammunition alone for practice, you could buy a rifled barrel from the manufacturer. And changing barrels is really easy. Slide halfway, unscrew cap, remove barrel, put new barrel on, screw cap, close slide. Or finish working it.
What makes it worth it, at all, when all it does is make saboted rounds FIREABLE, when I can get the same/more accuracy out of foster or brennekkes that are a third of the price? Logic and physics say a couple inches (MAYBE) of sudden rifling aren't going to spin a soft lead projectile that SLAMS into it, and they aren't going to get purchase worth a damn on sabots. I would much rather spend the money on more ammunition to practice with. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:43 pm
|
|
|
|
owenmarco Fresnel owenmarco Fresnel owenmarco Any studies to correlate the increased performance? Everyone else says they're gimmicks and worthless. For Fosters, you have a soft lead slug moving at speed, that SLAMS into the rifling. it's going to slide across them and impart no spin, but it will tighten that choke until it won't come back out, and it will lead the ******** out of it. It's not long enough to put any appreciable spin on a soft plastic sabot, either, and that's IF the polymer molds to the rifling before it exits. They're for people who are too cheap to buy a rifled barrel, and too gullible so they fall for the marketing hype instead of learning the best slug/choke combination for THEIR gun, or to do a bit of research and find out that Brennekke slugs are inherently more accurate because of a tighter fit with the bore. I cannot find ******** ANYBODY who has done any real tests on it, except one guy who did tests with saboted rounds and found a saboted round through a rifled choke is roughly as accurate as a rifled slug and an open choke, but it's FIRABLE. I'm sure you remember Box 'o Truth's tests of saboted slugs in a cylinder bore? And the thread has several testimonies. For the cost:worth ration, it' much more cost-efficient to match the right slug to your gun. With the increased cost of saboted slugs compared to foster or brennekke, it's not worth it in the slightest. Especially when you are going to get more accuracy out of selecting the right slug with your gun and it's widest choke. Slugs are already floating around a dollar a round. All of the sabot slugs I can find are floating around $15 for 5, meaning $3 a round! Testimonies with no corroborating evidence, and often no details. Just "it doesn't work". I'm looking for a scientific test with evidence, pictures, etc. Haven't found a damn thing. Ohhhh... I think I've got it. Rifled choke tubes are a cheaper alternative to a rifled barrel when shooting CERTAIN LOADS. It works with sabots and will stabilize them to rifled slug/smoothbore accuracy, but that's not what it was designed for. Remington makes a "Buckhammer" slug which is .73" in diameter. 12 gauge is .72". The extra couple inches of rifled choke there will grab one of those SOLID and spin it hard, stabilizing it and significantly increasing accuracy. A fully-rifled barrel would do the job much more efficiently (dropping it somewhat short of saboted range, but still at rifled energy levels), but it also costs four times as much as a choke and is more difficult to switch out. ETA: Maybe, maybe not. Remington claims their extended rifled choke is meant to be used with sabots. IDK, I'd have to see a test on that specific choke. Most rifled chokes aren't extended like the Remington. Now, compare the cost of a choke and saboted slugs to the cost of good solid brennekke slugs that are of higher diameter than most foster slugs (tighter fit=more accuracy, but most open choke is required) It's much more efficient to buy lots of $1 slugs instead of $3+ slugs, and use the extra savings on practice. Or, buy the damn barrel and make it dedicated already, or use a rifle. With the savings from the ammunition alone for practice, you could buy a rifled barrel from the manufacturer. And changing barrels is really easy. Slide halfway, unscrew cap, remove barrel, put new barrel on, screw cap, close slide. Or finish working it.
Quote: What makes it worth it, at all, when all it does is make saboted rounds FIREABLE, when I can get the same/more accuracy out of foster or brennekkes that are a third of the price? Logic and physics say a couple inches (MAYBE) of sudden rifling aren't going to spin a soft lead projectile that SLAMS into it, and they aren't going to get purchase worth a damn on sabots. I would much rather spend the money on more ammunition to practice with. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:14 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:26 am
|
|
|
|
ArmasTermin Currently leaning towards the Mossy 590. Two days ago I was mostly set on the 870, so who knows if that will change or not. Still not sure if I like the safety placement on the 590, but until recently I didn't like the lack of shell elevator pressing down, for no good reason. Now I do. sweatdrop EDIT: Trying to find the model number for the Mossy 590 SP with 18 or 18.5 inch barrel and 5+1 capacity with bead or ghost ring sight. Come to think of it, if I want a 590 with 5+1 and a bead sight I may as well go with that 500 Persuader. But the prime reason for getting that is accessability, and if I don't want to buy it at Academy I would order it from an FFL, in which case it would make sense to just go for the 590. EDIT Again: It seems there is no such 590. It looks like all the 590s are 8- or 9-shots with 20" barrels, and I don't want the extra weight and length. So I guess that 500 Persuader is my ideal Mossberg. To be honest, I'm typing this as much to share my thoughts and ask for suggestions as I am using it to simply put my thoughts in text format to organize things. EDIT the 3rd: Or maybe I'm being silly caring so much for the shorter, lighter. I don't know... is two inches and another pound (or probably more like several ounces) so much of a big deal when you're getting more velocity and another 3 rounds?
The 590 A1 Special Purpose. It has several different configurations that are close. They have an adjustable AR-style stock with everything else you want, a Speedfeed standard stock, three dot sights, bead, plain stock, plain with ghost rings, and lots more.
THe A1 series also has a metal trigger guard/housing and metal safety button.
http://mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=26§ion=products |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:37 am
|
|
|
|
owenmarco ArmasTermin Currently leaning towards the Mossy 590. Two days ago I was mostly set on the 870, so who knows if that will change or not. Still not sure if I like the safety placement on the 590, but until recently I didn't like the lack of shell elevator pressing down, for no good reason. Now I do. sweatdrop EDIT: Trying to find the model number for the Mossy 590 SP with 18 or 18.5 inch barrel and 5+1 capacity with bead or ghost ring sight. Come to think of it, if I want a 590 with 5+1 and a bead sight I may as well go with that 500 Persuader. But the prime reason for getting that is accessability, and if I don't want to buy it at Academy I would order it from an FFL, in which case it would make sense to just go for the 590. EDIT Again: It seems there is no such 590. It looks like all the 590s are 8- or 9-shots with 20" barrels, and I don't want the extra weight and length. So I guess that 500 Persuader is my ideal Mossberg. To be honest, I'm typing this as much to share my thoughts and ask for suggestions as I am using it to simply put my thoughts in text format to organize things. EDIT the 3rd: Or maybe I'm being silly caring so much for the shorter, lighter. I don't know... is two inches and another pound (or probably more like several ounces) so much of a big deal when you're getting more velocity and another 3 rounds? They make a 590 in your configuration. The 590 A1 Special Purpose. It has several different configurations that are close. They have an adjustable AR-style stock with everything else you want, a Speedfeed standard stock, three dot sights, bead, plain stock, plain with ghost rings, and lots more. THe A1 series also has a metal trigger guard/housing and metal safety button. ]http://mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=26§ion=products |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:54 am
|
|
|
|
Fresnel owenmarco Fresnel owenmarco Fresnel I cannot find ******** ANYBODY who has done any real tests on it, except one guy who did tests with saboted rounds and found a saboted round through a rifled choke is roughly as accurate as a rifled slug and an open choke, but it's FIRABLE. I'm sure you remember Box 'o Truth's tests of saboted slugs in a cylinder bore? And the thread has several testimonies. For the cost:worth ration, it' much more cost-efficient to match the right slug to your gun. With the increased cost of saboted slugs compared to foster or brennekke, it's not worth it in the slightest. Especially when you are going to get more accuracy out of selecting the right slug with your gun and it's widest choke. Slugs are already floating around a dollar a round. All of the sabot slugs I can find are floating around $15 for 5, meaning $3 a round! Testimonies with no corroborating evidence, and often no details. Just "it doesn't work". I'm looking for a scientific test with evidence, pictures, etc. Haven't found a damn thing. Ohhhh... I think I've got it. Rifled choke tubes are a cheaper alternative to a rifled barrel when shooting CERTAIN LOADS. It works with sabots and will stabilize them to rifled slug/smoothbore accuracy, but that's not what it was designed for. Remington makes a "Buckhammer" slug which is .73" in diameter. 12 gauge is .72". The extra couple inches of rifled choke there will grab one of those SOLID and spin it hard, stabilizing it and significantly increasing accuracy. A fully-rifled barrel would do the job much more efficiently (dropping it somewhat short of saboted range, but still at rifled energy levels), but it also costs four times as much as a choke and is more difficult to switch out. ETA: Maybe, maybe not. Remington claims their extended rifled choke is meant to be used with sabots. IDK, I'd have to see a test on that specific choke. Most rifled chokes aren't extended like the Remington. Now, compare the cost of a choke and saboted slugs to the cost of good solid brennekke slugs that are of higher diameter than most foster slugs (tighter fit=more accuracy, but most open choke is required) It's much more efficient to buy lots of $1 slugs instead of $3+ slugs, and use the extra savings on practice. Or, buy the damn barrel and make it dedicated already, or use a rifle. With the savings from the ammunition alone for practice, you could buy a rifled barrel from the manufacturer. And changing barrels is really easy. Slide halfway, unscrew cap, remove barrel, put new barrel on, screw cap, close slide. Or finish working it. Okay, you're taking this like sabots are the be-all end-all, 100% certain reason for the rifled choke's existence. That's just plain not true. Stabilizing sabots is more likely than not not its prime purpose. It's built to stabilize specially-built non-rifled slugs, and Foster slugs. The fact that it's not to be used with Brennekes makes me think it's also slightly choked. Quote: What makes it worth it, at all, when all it does is make saboted rounds FIREABLE, when I can get the same/more accuracy out of foster or brennekkes that are a third of the price? Logic and physics say a couple inches (MAYBE) of sudden rifling aren't going to spin a soft lead projectile that SLAMS into it, and they aren't going to get purchase worth a damn on sabots. I would much rather spend the money on more ammunition to practice with. And what DOES physics dictate? Either it spins, or it shears off a ******** of lead like rough wood on a plane. One way or another, SOMETHING happens, and I don't think it's shearing. It's soft, meaning it deforms easily. It grabs the rifling with a minimum of fuss and holds on for a spin. We're not talking ten rotations to an inch, we're talking closer to ten inches to one rotation. More likely than not if it's a 3" choke, it's got half a rotation in it. It's not a steep angle. And yeah it'll grab a sabot. Plastic deforms even easier than lead, and it's a wider shell, so it's got more pressure pushing outwards against the rifling.
Especially with that practice, I can get just as good groupings by selecting the right slug that fits my gun better, or even just the BRAND it likes. If I do my part, I could get 4" groups at 100 yards with the correct choice of slug, and maybe replacing the bead sight. And then, if I have to suddenly change ammunition, I don't have a "spreader" choke anymore, I still have plain Cylinder.
The cost is not worth the minuscule to none increase in effectiveness. Buckhammer slugs are usually $13-$15 for 5 depending on gauge and size (2 3/4 or 3), which is right up there with sabot slugs. I managed to find them on sale for $7 for 5. Foster slugs are often undersize, and squeeze down their soft lead "fins" when they aren't.
If I want maximum range and accuracy, I'll get a RIFLE. That's what they are FOR. Shotguns are designed for limited range in the first place.
Don't forget you can bugger up your threads because it tightens the choke when the slug hits it. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:57 am
|
|
|
|
Fresnel owenmarco ArmasTermin Currently leaning towards the Mossy 590. Two days ago I was mostly set on the 870, so who knows if that will change or not. Still not sure if I like the safety placement on the 590, but until recently I didn't like the lack of shell elevator pressing down, for no good reason. Now I do. sweatdrop EDIT: Trying to find the model number for the Mossy 590 SP with 18 or 18.5 inch barrel and 5+1 capacity with bead or ghost ring sight. Come to think of it, if I want a 590 with 5+1 and a bead sight I may as well go with that 500 Persuader. But the prime reason for getting that is accessability, and if I don't want to buy it at Academy I would order it from an FFL, in which case it would make sense to just go for the 590. EDIT Again: It seems there is no such 590. It looks like all the 590s are 8- or 9-shots with 20" barrels, and I don't want the extra weight and length. So I guess that 500 Persuader is my ideal Mossberg. To be honest, I'm typing this as much to share my thoughts and ask for suggestions as I am using it to simply put my thoughts in text format to organize things. EDIT the 3rd: Or maybe I'm being silly caring so much for the shorter, lighter. I don't know... is two inches and another pound (or probably more like several ounces) so much of a big deal when you're getting more velocity and another 3 rounds? They make a 590 in your configuration. The 590 A1 Special Purpose. It has several different configurations that are close. They have an adjustable AR-style stock with everything else you want, a Speedfeed standard stock, three dot sights, bead, plain stock, plain with ghost rings, and lots more. THe A1 series also has a metal trigger guard/housing and metal safety button. ]http://mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=26§ion=products
Mossberg is giving the CONSUMER a choice what he wants to start with, for a single price and shipping time, instead of being forced to buy an expensive basic model, more barrels, extensions, new stocks, sights, or finishes. It could easily cost double ot custom-configure an 870 in the same configuration as any of the A1 series. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:39 am
|
|
|
|
owenmarco ArmasTermin Currently leaning towards the Mossy 590. Two days ago I was mostly set on the 870, so who knows if that will change or not. Still not sure if I like the safety placement on the 590, but until recently I didn't like the lack of shell elevator pressing down, for no good reason. Now I do. sweatdrop EDIT: Trying to find the model number for the Mossy 590 SP with 18 or 18.5 inch barrel and 5+1 capacity with bead or ghost ring sight. Come to think of it, if I want a 590 with 5+1 and a bead sight I may as well go with that 500 Persuader. But the prime reason for getting that is accessability, and if I don't want to buy it at Academy I would order it from an FFL, in which case it would make sense to just go for the 590. EDIT Again: It seems there is no such 590. It looks like all the 590s are 8- or 9-shots with 20" barrels, and I don't want the extra weight and length. So I guess that 500 Persuader is my ideal Mossberg. To be honest, I'm typing this as much to share my thoughts and ask for suggestions as I am using it to simply put my thoughts in text format to organize things. EDIT the 3rd: Or maybe I'm being silly caring so much for the shorter, lighter. I don't know... is two inches and another pound (or probably more like several ounces) so much of a big deal when you're getting more velocity and another 3 rounds? They make a 590 in your configuration. The 590 A1 Special Purpose. It has several different configurations that are close. They have an adjustable AR-style stock with everything else you want, a Speedfeed standard stock, three dot sights, bead, plain stock, plain with ghost rings, and lots more. THe A1 series also has a metal trigger guard/housing and metal safety button. ]http://mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=26§ion=products
Ah, I see now. But can't mount a bayonet with the magazine short in comparison to the barrel. I'd have to go with an 8-shot model, or abandon the bayonet idea and probably go for the lighter-weight and lower-priced 500 Persuader because they'd be so similar in stats. Of course I guess the 590 is built a little tougher.
Not that the bayonet would be at all important, and would just be to slap on every once in a while to look cool. But I still kind of want it. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:59 am
|
|
|
|
ArmasTermin owenmarco ArmasTermin Currently leaning towards the Mossy 590. Two days ago I was mostly set on the 870, so who knows if that will change or not. Still not sure if I like the safety placement on the 590, but until recently I didn't like the lack of shell elevator pressing down, for no good reason. Now I do. sweatdrop EDIT: Trying to find the model number for the Mossy 590 SP with 18 or 18.5 inch barrel and 5+1 capacity with bead or ghost ring sight. Come to think of it, if I want a 590 with 5+1 and a bead sight I may as well go with that 500 Persuader. But the prime reason for getting that is accessability, and if I don't want to buy it at Academy I would order it from an FFL, in which case it would make sense to just go for the 590. EDIT Again: It seems there is no such 590. It looks like all the 590s are 8- or 9-shots with 20" barrels, and I don't want the extra weight and length. So I guess that 500 Persuader is my ideal Mossberg. To be honest, I'm typing this as much to share my thoughts and ask for suggestions as I am using it to simply put my thoughts in text format to organize things. EDIT the 3rd: Or maybe I'm being silly caring so much for the shorter, lighter. I don't know... is two inches and another pound (or probably more like several ounces) so much of a big deal when you're getting more velocity and another 3 rounds? They make a 590 in your configuration. The 590 A1 Special Purpose. It has several different configurations that are close. They have an adjustable AR-style stock with everything else you want, a Speedfeed standard stock, three dot sights, bead, plain stock, plain with ghost rings, and lots more. THe A1 series also has a metal trigger guard/housing and metal safety button. ]http://mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=26§ion=products
Ah, I see now. But can't mount a bayonet with the magazine short in comparison to the barrel. I'd have to go with an 8-shot model, or abandon the bayonet idea and probably go for the lighter-weight and lower-priced 500 Persuader because they'd be so similar in stats. Of course I guess the 590 is built a little tougher.
Not that the bayonet would be at all important, and would just be to slap on every once in a while to look cool. But I still kind of want it.With the design where it mounts onto the end of the tube, of course you can't with the shorter tube. I thought they made a full-tubed 18.5, but I guess not.
The extra two inches isn't that bad when you're used to a 28-inch barrel. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
The A1 models have the thick barrels, which I think would add more weight than the extra two inches and extra capacity.
The biggest difference between the 590A1 and Persuader is the metal trigger guard and safety button. Otherwise, it's how the barrel mounts. THe barrels ARE interchangeable, but they are NOT compatible with each other's magazine tube. They fit in each receiver, but cannot actually mount because of the difference in tube styles. You CAN change the tube if you want, though it would just be easier and simpler to save a bit more and buy a normal 590. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:07 pm
|
|
|
|
owenmarco Fresnel owenmarco ArmasTermin Currently leaning towards the Mossy 590. Two days ago I was mostly set on the 870, so who knows if that will change or not. Still not sure if I like the safety placement on the 590, but until recently I didn't like the lack of shell elevator pressing down, for no good reason. Now I do. sweatdrop EDIT: Trying to find the model number for the Mossy 590 SP with 18 or 18.5 inch barrel and 5+1 capacity with bead or ghost ring sight. Come to think of it, if I want a 590 with 5+1 and a bead sight I may as well go with that 500 Persuader. But the prime reason for getting that is accessability, and if I don't want to buy it at Academy I would order it from an FFL, in which case it would make sense to just go for the 590. EDIT Again: It seems there is no such 590. It looks like all the 590s are 8- or 9-shots with 20" barrels, and I don't want the extra weight and length. So I guess that 500 Persuader is my ideal Mossberg. To be honest, I'm typing this as much to share my thoughts and ask for suggestions as I am using it to simply put my thoughts in text format to organize things. EDIT the 3rd: Or maybe I'm being silly caring so much for the shorter, lighter. I don't know... is two inches and another pound (or probably more like several ounces) so much of a big deal when you're getting more velocity and another 3 rounds? They make a 590 in your configuration. The 590 A1 Special Purpose. It has several different configurations that are close. They have an adjustable AR-style stock with everything else you want, a Speedfeed standard stock, three dot sights, bead, plain stock, plain with ghost rings, and lots more. THe A1 series also has a metal trigger guard/housing and metal safety button. ]http://mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=26§ion=products It really does bother me that Mossberg puts out twenty unique shotguns per model name. I can understand "500 hardwood" and "500 synthetic" going under the same model name, but goddamn... twenty configurations of 590A1 and only a couple of them have unique model names. Eight "Special Purpose" models, two "Adjustable"s, a Compact, an SPX, and a Mariner. Time to fire your marketing team.
Mossberg is giving the CONSUMER a choice what he wants to start with, for a single price and shipping time, instead of being forced to buy an expensive basic model, more barrels, extensions, new stocks, sights, or finishes. It could easily cost double ot custom-configure an 870 in the same configuration as any of the A1 series. It depends what CHOICE you're looking for. If you want a tacticool HD gun, they make a couple of those. If you want a hunting gun, they make a half-million of them. Remington markets largely towards hunters. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:10 pm
|
|
|
|
owenmarco Fresnel owenmarco Fresnel owenmarco And the thread has several testimonies. For the cost:worth ration, it' much more cost-efficient to match the right slug to your gun. With the increased cost of saboted slugs compared to foster or brennekke, it's not worth it in the slightest. Especially when you are going to get more accuracy out of selecting the right slug with your gun and it's widest choke. Slugs are already floating around a dollar a round. All of the sabot slugs I can find are floating around $15 for 5, meaning $3 a round! Testimonies with no corroborating evidence, and often no details. Just "it doesn't work". I'm looking for a scientific test with evidence, pictures, etc. Haven't found a damn thing. Ohhhh... I think I've got it. Rifled choke tubes are a cheaper alternative to a rifled barrel when shooting CERTAIN LOADS. It works with sabots and will stabilize them to rifled slug/smoothbore accuracy, but that's not what it was designed for. Remington makes a "Buckhammer" slug which is .73" in diameter. 12 gauge is .72". The extra couple inches of rifled choke there will grab one of those SOLID and spin it hard, stabilizing it and significantly increasing accuracy. A fully-rifled barrel would do the job much more efficiently (dropping it somewhat short of saboted range, but still at rifled energy levels), but it also costs four times as much as a choke and is more difficult to switch out. ETA: Maybe, maybe not. Remington claims their extended rifled choke is meant to be used with sabots. IDK, I'd have to see a test on that specific choke. Most rifled chokes aren't extended like the Remington. Now, compare the cost of a choke and saboted slugs to the cost of good solid brennekke slugs that are of higher diameter than most foster slugs (tighter fit=more accuracy, but most open choke is required) It's much more efficient to buy lots of $1 slugs instead of $3+ slugs, and use the extra savings on practice. Or, buy the damn barrel and make it dedicated already, or use a rifle. With the savings from the ammunition alone for practice, you could buy a rifled barrel from the manufacturer. And changing barrels is really easy. Slide halfway, unscrew cap, remove barrel, put new barrel on, screw cap, close slide. Or finish working it. Okay, you're taking this like sabots are the be-all end-all, 100% certain reason for the rifled choke's existence. That's just plain not true. Stabilizing sabots is more likely than not not its prime purpose. It's built to stabilize specially-built non-rifled slugs, and Foster slugs. The fact that it's not to be used with Brennekes makes me think it's also slightly choked. Quote: What makes it worth it, at all, when all it does is make saboted rounds FIREABLE, when I can get the same/more accuracy out of foster or brennekkes that are a third of the price? Logic and physics say a couple inches (MAYBE) of sudden rifling aren't going to spin a soft lead projectile that SLAMS into it, and they aren't going to get purchase worth a damn on sabots. I would much rather spend the money on more ammunition to practice with. And what DOES physics dictate? Either it spins, or it shears off a ******** of lead like rough wood on a plane. One way or another, SOMETHING happens, and I don't think it's shearing. It's soft, meaning it deforms easily. It grabs the rifling with a minimum of fuss and holds on for a spin. We're not talking ten rotations to an inch, we're talking closer to ten inches to one rotation. More likely than not if it's a 3" choke, it's got half a rotation in it. It's not a steep angle. And yeah it'll grab a sabot. Plastic deforms even easier than lead, and it's a wider shell, so it's got more pressure pushing outwards against the rifling. So it only really works with special slugs? I still say it NOWHERE NEAR WORTH IT. Ammunition+practice>worthless choke. Especially with that practice, I can get just as good groupings by selecting the right slug that fits my gun better, or even just the BRAND it likes. If I do my part, I could get 4" groups at 100 yards with the correct choice of slug, and maybe replacing the bead sight. And then, if I have to suddenly change ammunition, I don't have a "spreader" choke anymore, I still have plain Cylinder. The cost is not worth the minuscule to none increase in effectiveness. Buckhammer slugs are usually $13-$15 for 5 depending on gauge and size (2 3/4 or 3), which is right up there with sabot slugs. I managed to find them on sale for $7 for 5. Foster slugs are often undersize, and squeeze down their soft lead "fins" when they aren't. If I want maximum range and accuracy, I'll get a RIFLE. That's what they are FOR. Shotguns are designed for limited range in the first place. Don't forget you can bugger up your threads because it tightens the choke when the slug hits it.
You getting it now? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
