A religious debate thread?!

[DaFire]

Personally... I'm agnostic. I never believed anything from all the religious hooey- ha that I occasionaly saw as a kid and just generally went on with my naive little childhood. But now that i'm slightly older (15 - Yes, i'm still a kid, and i'm in an 'adult only' guilb, get over it.) i've just naturally branched out a bit more, and it's just made me think that there's definitely more going on than what we can see.  

[Garek Maxwell]

666 Demonic Lover 666

Actually I can say I have experienced the so called Yahweh/Jehova, or at least his messengers, and I can say it's a load of s**t, after the visitation (During a time which I was stupid enough to believe in that God), I was attacked later by a supposed Demon, I did my meditations and opened my Third eye, it attacked me another time, this time I was able to See it's Real aura and form past it's disguise and saw it was the Messenger that was sent before, since then I have no trust for the Bible, Jehova, or Angels, they're all scum that do what they can to trap you into their line, furthermore anyone who's Awakened their sense knows damn well when someone nearby is praying or when a church is singing/praying their is a very nasty irritating generation of mass negative energies together, even from people who claim you must find god yourself and blah blah, that's not true it's still the same your still helping the Angels generate negative energy to damage the earth.

Or not.
Could'a been ol' man coyote trickin' ya' like he's tricking everyone else. He's cool like that. cool  

[RevvRaptor]

666 Demonic Lover 666

Actually I can say I have experienced the so called Yahweh/Jehova, or at least his messengers, and I can say it's a load of s**t, after the visitation (During a time which I was stupid enough to believe in that God), I was attacked later by a supposed Demon, I did my meditations and opened my Third eye, it attacked me another time, this time I was able to See it's Real aura and form past it's disguise and saw it was the Messenger that was sent before, since then I have no trust for the Bible, Jehova, or Angels, they're all scum that do what they can to trap you into their line, furthermore anyone who's Awakened their sense knows damn well when someone nearby is praying or when a church is singing/praying their is a very nasty irritating generation of mass negative energies together, even from people who claim you must find god yourself and blah blah, that's not true it's still the same your still helping the Angels generate negative energy to damage the earth.

I suppose the old saying "It takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch" also applies to one being spoiling a person's entire perception of a single religion as a whole, even when there are false messengers, just as there have always been false Prophets in just about every Religion throughout history.. One such false messenger deciding to go rogue and attack is not really enough evidence to condemn an entire Religion to a negative, though. And who's to say it wasn't a Spirit Guide? I've been fortunate to have a kind one, though I've met other people whose Guides are, shall we say, less-than-friendly, and a bit sadistic.. Basically, the kinds who would say to trust them to lead you blindly across the street in traffic, and when you open your eyes you see you've been left in the middle of the road with a large vehicle incoming at top speed.

I've awakened all of my senses, and yet every time I've been to Church, I've only experienced two negative things: 1. The choir tends to reach a decibel-level singing hymns of love that almost hinges on glass-shattering and eardrum-rupturing, and 2. The same kids sitting one row behind me kicking the back of my pew and making me resist the urge to turn around and ask their parents why they aren't instilling their children with better manners for functioning in society anywhere, much less in a holy place. Other than that, the overall aura of the place is amazingly peaceful and soothing, I can see why so many people choose to take naps during the sermon, aside from some of them being a bit long-winded.

Now, this being a debate thread calling for Civilized Discussion, which does not include crude insults, let's bring this discussion back to that, instead of one-sidedly insulting each others' beliefs because opinions differ. Looking at the debate garek and Jungle Boots were having is a pretty good example of real debating at its finest.  

[RevvRaptor]

Garek Maxwell

Or not.
Could'a been ol' man coyote trickin' ya' like he's tricking everyone else. He's cool like that. cool

Now now, it's a well(ish)-known fact tricksters are more prone to trick and then run like *insert snappy phrase involving high-velocity speeds here*, especially when conflict is involved, especially when that conflict involves any kind of bodily harm.. Besides, Coyote's most diabolical trick has been teaching Human teenagers what happens when you drop a Mentos into a Diet Coke.  

[Garek Maxwell]

RevvRaptor

Looking at the debate garek and Jungle Boots were having is a pretty good example of real debating at its finest.

Awww, you're just saying that! heart
I have to admit, I could be better with my replies as I feel they are a bit "well, this is how it's gonna be" and less "this is what is predicted to happen and I agree". Minor, but I feel bad either way. sweatdrop

RevvRaptor

Now now, it's a well(ish)-known fact tricksters are more prone to trick and then run like *insert snappy phrase involving high-velocity speeds here*, especially when conflict is involved, especially when that conflict involves any kind of bodily harm.. Besides, Coyote's most diabolical trick has been teaching Human teenagers what happens when you drop a Mentos into a Diet Coke.

I have it on good authority coyotes continue to be brave, active participants in their trickery, and that falling for miles doesn't count as running away. I'll keep an eye out for the Mentos one though. 3nodding  

[Xx_Hanyuu-San_xX]

Let's fill some Jars with Dirt, its the religious discussion time, so let's just Fight........  

[Jungle Boots]

Garek Maxwell

I see where you're coming from, but there are beneficial objective morals that people can agree upon so to speak. The simplest one? It's nice to be nice. Nothing more than the simple quality of life with more niceness to go around to be the objective benefit.

I dont think thats adiquate at all.

what about tough love? some times its necessary, some times it solves issues others are having, as far as im concerned tough love is good. or helps them solve those issues. its certainly not nice, not in a direct way.

Being nice to one person often times being neglective of another... in terms of nationalism being nice often times ends up as xenophobia and calousness towards the hardships of peoples from other nations.

I think that "its nice to be nice" in and of itself is actually very vulnerable to foul play because the definition of nice is perceptive... its subjective. people wont agree on whats nice. people dont agree because there is no objective manner through witch one can firmly and concretely define nice that will be accepted across the globe, not without dilluting and generalizing it to an almost useless term that then has the same issues of definition. Nice is a concept, its an invention of man as an abstract concept for a very general mass of ideas that are examples of niceness.

one cannot assume a sense of morality from the abstract of nice, it cannot enforce itself and punish violations of itself because by its general definition enforceing and punishing is not nice, at least not nice to the culprit.

Garek Maxwell

I can't think of any damaging costs associated with it... And if people are sampling the buffet of beliefs, then they are likely to be more open about it than before. Frankly, I don't think there's ever been a time where more people actually actively tried to respect one another's beliefs and, well, were trying to be nice to one another about those differences. There's definitely extremists, but a lot has changed since the era of okayed racism 50 years ago...or 60. Darn years keeps moving forward. mad

i agree, I feel it allows much less conflict between faiths. However i feel that even in a state like that the true reasons why conflicts and attrocities happen between man will still happen.

The grossest and most abhorred attrocities in human history have not been motivated by gods word, so much as by man's wallet. WW2 was motivated by the need for the wealth of countries across the globe. The genocide of the North American Indian was over land and resources. The crusades were over trade routes, and wealth. The famine of Ukraine was to supress ukrainians who supported anti soviet thoughts and to feed a growing industrial machine of the USSR to gain economic superiority against the west. Even Islamic extremeism as far as i am concerned, is mostly motivated and at least inspired by the wests imposition of the state of israel against palistine. The extreme beliefs are but an excuse for the attrocities committed.

Im not claiming human nature is greedy or violent, i dont believe such a thing as human nature exists. But i claim that the greatest evils man can muster are symptoms of desire, and materialism.

Garek Maxwell

Oh, and of course, there's always the possibility to form a sort of manifesto for the new age, outlining things like respecting one another in their beliefs but objecting to the behaviors when said beliefs are pushed onto others or actively do harm to another person. Given that they would be aware of the choices available to them, it wouldn't be much to ask for them to tweak their beliefs so they aren't jerks.

I feel the entire evolution of economy, government, and general philosophy/theology has been an attempt at creating the perfect manifesto. Some one will always dissagree, not to mentioin these constructs as they are MUST be generalized to some degree, this generalization makes them vulnerable to manipulation. and these manipulastions can move towards a very horrible act.

like all else it any manifesto forever be imperfect. perceptively better as time and experience leads us, but never quite enough.  

[[-Erik-]]

666 Demonic Lover 666

Let's fill some Jars with Dirt, its the religious discussion time, so let's just Fight........

If you insist! *smears dirt all over you*

I think your views on religion are childish. You usually turn a deaf ear on everything/everyone you disagree with/disagree with you and label them as intolerant morons and also fail to realize that while doing so you too become an intolerant moron, but that's okay because you have an excuse, right?

Your turn, GO!  

[DarkWolfLove]

[-Erik-]

666 Demonic Lover 666

Let's fill some Jars with Dirt, its the religious discussion time, so let's just Fight........

If you insist! *smears dirt all over you*

I think your views on religion are childish. You usually turn a deaf ear on everything/everyone you disagree with/disagree with you and label them as intolerant morons and also fail to realize that while doing so you too become an intolerant moron, but that's okay because you have an excuse, right?

Your turn, GO!

I'd like to have sex with your words.
I like/hate how you managed to say everything I've been trying to convey to her into one short, sweet mini-paragraph.

 

[Garek Maxwell]

(Disclaimer, I'm pulling ideas badly from a book Mediated by Zengotita (wiki). Awesome book, but it's hard for me to wrap my head around it at times. Really amazing book going into how he sees the mediation of our world. It shaped the way I view the world a lot, put words to some things I couldn't identify but saw, and heavily influenced a lot of what I'm saying here.)

Jungle Boots

what about tough love? some times its necessary, some times it solves issues others are having, as far as im concerned tough love is good. or helps them solve those issues. its certainly not nice, not in a direct way.

You're definitely right, it's not nice. But then, why have tough love when you could be nice instead? In the end, it's a good thing really. Why bother making things tough when the soft route can get people to do things too? Take getting a job. Why tell your children "get a job or get out", when we could just create a culture of workaholic shopaholics motivating them to get a job. I know it's not that simple, but at the same time, it is. It's the culture of the US.

Jungle Boots

Being nice to one person often times being neglective of another... in terms of nationalism being nice often times ends up as xenophobia and calousness towards the hardships of peoples from other nations.

Ehhh, I kinda doubt that for the simple phrase "I like you just the way you are", by Mr. Rogers. Sure, he's a TV personality, but look at today's culture. It's all about reaffirming this idea. Out and proud is only the tip of the iceberg. The hippies certainly tried to make a Utopian love fest society, but it was too extreme. Just like nationalism, really. It's all just too extreme.

Niceness is all about 'you' and what 'you' do to others. Putting yourself in the shoes of someone else is just one of the tools of niceness. Really, who doesn't want to live in a world were people are nice to one other? No hurt feelings, because that's rude. A big part of it is making everything optional too. It takes the sting and extremism out of everything.

Friends with benefits means sex without expectations of more. When it's called off? Oh well! And when feelings are hurt, it's okay, because you apologize to one another. You express empathy. Eventually people are forgiven and things move on. It's not the earth shattering labels of whoredom and *whispers* divorced that you'd get back in the day.

Jungle Boots

I think that "its nice to be nice" in and of itself is actually very vulnerable to foul play because the definition of nice is perceptive... its subjective. people wont agree on whats nice. people dont agree because there is no objective manner through witch one can firmly and concretely define nice that will be accepted across the globe, not without dilluting and generalizing it to an almost useless term that then has the same issues of definition. Nice is a concept, its an invention of man as an abstract concept for a very general mass of ideas that are examples of niceness.

one cannot assume a sense of morality from the abstract of nice, it cannot enforce itself and punish violations of itself because by its general definition enforceing and punishing is not nice, at least not nice to the culprit.

Eh, I disagree only because while it can be manipulated, people are very perceptive of it. I don't think I would need to find articles showing scientific studies finding good behavior, niceness, is beneficial to people anyway.

I don't claim this is any kind of Utopian dream either. What I'm looking at is how the social construction of society and reality is developed. Childhood just didn't exist until the 1700s. I mean, there are exceptions, but as a whole, it didn't exist. Now we do everything we can to protect children from the harshness of reality. As a whole, we're pretty good at that. If something's too harsh or heavy, then it becomes optional or everything surrounding it becomes optional, blurring the edges.

Niceness goes along with that, because honestly it's really a good thing in the end. Would you want to have been exposed to the world's horrors as a child? We could ship kids to spend a week in a holocaust museum to teach them the cold harshness of reality...

Or we could watch a documentary with people giving accounts of those atrocities. Or better yet, a "based on a true story" movie where an unsung hero saves the lives of several people from those encampments? Or just go the whole way, and have a nazi comedy for those not looking to get depressed for the rest of their life? An action packed thriller? Saw-esque gore fest? It's just a representation anyway. No one's hurt, and people learn about the bad bad things in a way that doesn't hurt them either.

Tough love? That'd be a night at the museum. Niceness? That's entertainment.

Jungle Boots

i agree, I feel it allows much less conflict between faiths. However i feel that even in a state like that the true reasons why conflicts and attrocities happen between man will still happen.

The grossest and most abhorred attrocities in human history have not been motivated by gods word, so much as by man's wallet.

I definitely agree. Though I think war will end soon. Violence will often be a problem into the future, no doubt about that... But corporations will eventually do what they can to end that.

My belief? Peace will be achieved not through the honorable pursuit of peace, but through the hollowness of money. Once people are globally worth more alive than dead and corporations rule nations, then major conflicts will end. That's their customer's these darn countries are killing after all.

Jungle Boots

Im not claiming human nature is greedy or violent, i dont believe such a thing as human nature exists. But i claim that the greatest evils man can muster are symptoms of desire, and materialism.

Sadly. sad
(Don't have much more to say, I agree so much.)

Jungle Boots

I feel the entire evolution of economy, government, and general philosophy/theology has been an attempt at creating the perfect manifesto. Some one will always dissagree, not to mentioin these constructs as they are MUST be generalized to some degree, this generalization makes them vulnerable to manipulation. and these manipulastions can move towards a very horrible act.

like all else it any manifesto forever be imperfect. perceptively better as time and experience leads us, but never quite enough.

Oh, I don't disagree that it would have to be generalize. I also think it would surely violate some religions out there to say "no, you can't tell people they're wrong, you're just as wrong/right as they are." Not everyone's going to agree with it, but the idea behind it, unlike others, is to give guiding rules and principles for all societies to look towards.

Not unlike past ones...I mean, the communist one was designed to liberate workers from the plights they suffered. I think what I can't seem to say because I'm just not very good with these things is that my idea would be manifesto-like, but designed to be personally adopted rather than adopted by large entities.

...Actually, I don't honestly know how it would work. I never sat down to actually bother writing one. I figured there would be a need to develop it along side other people to determine loopholes but give overarching guidelines...  

[Xx_Hanyuu-San_xX]

DarkWolfLove

[-Erik-]

666 Demonic Lover 666

Let's fill some Jars with Dirt, its the religious discussion time, so let's just Fight........

If you insist! *smears dirt all over you*

I think your views on religion are childish. You usually turn a deaf ear on everything/everyone you disagree with/disagree with you and label them as intolerant morons and also fail to realize that while doing so you too become an intolerant moron, but that's okay because you have an excuse, right?

Your turn, GO!

I'd like to have sex with your words.
I like/hate how you managed to say everything I've been trying to convey to her into one short, sweet mini-paragraph.

*Dirt turns to ash* O_e

Your pint? I hasn't talked s**t here in months get ovar it.  

[Jungle Boots]

@ garek:

thats the issue tho man... "its nice to be nice" requires a universal concept of nice, or it requires a system of humanity that really can manage life by only being nice to eachother... i dont think thats possible without all of humanity becoming enlightened. its possible... certainly... but its not apparent to happen any time soon, and untill then we require some sort of model that 'progresses' us towards that state but does not manipulate 'truth', or manipulate 'humanity'.  

[Lilithiann]

I'm not really posting for a debate but I am posting to throw in my two cents razz

Let's see, I was born a southern baptist, but since my childhood, it didn't seem right. I was always told to pray to god if you need help or something. Honestly, I have a better win chance with the lotto than prayer. Anyways, I stepped away from their faith...which really upset my mother...christians being jesus-like my butt stare I eventually found myself becoming a very spiritual person. To others I may seem Wiccan but I refuse to call myself one....I dunno where I am going with that, but me being religious? no, but me having faith in myself instead of a "higher power" yes

and I'm sorry if what I said made no sense sweatdrop  

[Deaths kitsune]

i wonder. can anyone tell me this.

im Lutheran, but i call myself a fence sitter. meaning i believe that the big bang and all the stuff, but i dont think stuff can be made from no stuff. there needs to be some being to place it there to be made with.  

[Jungle Boots]

Little Fuzzy Bunneh

I'm not really posting for a debate but I am posting to throw in my two cents razz

Let's see, I was born a southern baptist, but since my childhood, it didn't seem right. I was always told to pray to god if you need help or something. Honestly, I have a better win chance with the lotto than prayer. Anyways, I stepped away from their faith...which really upset my mother...christians being jesus-like my butt stare I eventually found myself becoming a very spiritual person. To others I may seem Wiccan but I refuse to call myself one....I dunno where I am going with that, but me being religious? no, but me having faith in myself instead of a "higher power" yes

and I'm sorry if what I said made no sense sweatdrop

im cool with that... faith most definately has its place in the human being. religion has purposes and fills gaps that science and induction cant yet and possibly never will manage to explain. science and religion are both based on assumptions to explain situations that are not innately understood.

both require faith in its assumptions, and both solve issues we experience in our lives.

Prayer will most likely not provide a solution to a material issue that science might be able to solve. Scientific processes may not be applicable to issues of identity and purpose that religion leaves to faith, which may be applicable to those issues, in its explaination.

and death kitsune: the above is very much comming from your dihlemma. Scientists are working on solutions to concepts of everything out of nothing, and life out of random chemistry. however i doubt it will ever assume the actual reality of those events. you can let your faiths assume those events, or you can let your belief in sciences and your spiritual faiths work in conjunction, always skeptical, and always searching for a better explaination but still providing purpose to your existance.

I would suggest reading and studying the ever expanding explainations that both theoretical and quantum physics has made recently as well as religious theories.