This guild is so dead, guys.

[Garek Maxwell]

ZiPPy2157

Zech shakes his head. "Read the bible sometime's start in john new testament and read on. Like I said in the beginning im not being judgemental of you, I am only saying the thing's that I know and belive to be true. Sorry, but I guess we will both find out in the end and you may be right. Though god to me is hope and he is real rather you want to accpet him or not and the thing about the father is right. He does love you and like most parent's the thing's they ask may seem unfair and you might not understand the meaning of it all, but the greatest thing's in life don't come easy. Rome wasn't build in a day, but please when you are asked refuse the mark. Goodbye I hope your ranting has made you feel better.

And not a word was read...Biblical or otherwise.

I could copy-paste my entire post again, but not a shred of evidence would be looked at and not a second thought given, regardless of the consequences. I can tell, because you addressed not a single point brought up in any links provided. It's concerning, since, if you are wrong, then you've been condemning an entire group for no good reason. Committing blasphemy, even.

In the end, it appears you do in fact prefer a divisive God to an all encompassing, all loving God. It's you're choice, your option. Once more, for me, My God, the Christian God, is simply different from yours, who you believe to be the Christian God as well. Same religion, different flavor. My flavor just doesn't drive away an entire group of people.  

[[-Erik-]]

Zuri-kai

[-Erik-]

Zuri-kai

[-Erik-]

Let's go back to me being straight and Garek not.

This is what is in his mind all the time.

IMAGE GOES HERE

I am on the right, he's on the left.

*roflmao's* That just made my night. XDD

Mine too... we're so simple minded ._.

Hey, simple minded people are generally very happy people. 3nodding

You're right! The mere thought of that made me all happy now!

 

[Guaif]

[-Erik-]

Zuri-kai

[-Erik-]

Zuri-kai

[-Erik-]

Let's go back to me being straight and Garek not.

This is what is in his mind all the time.

IMAGE GOES HERE

I am on the right, he's on the left.

*roflmao's* That just made my night. XDD

Mine too... we're so simple minded ._.

Hey, simple minded people are generally very happy people. 3nodding

You're right! The mere thought of that made me all happy now!

~Gives stamp of Approval~  

[Garek Maxwell]

Zuri-kai

Sorry, Garek, but I have to argue this one. I think Zippy is going about the explanation of the Christian view the wrong way. God does love unconditionally, it's more that he can't be in the presence of sin (well more rather sin can't be in the presence of God, so rather than appearing and suddenly vaporizing anything remotely sinful he acts from a distance).

The logic of homosexuality as a sin (outside it's obvious stating in Leviticus) is that God made us with the intent of heterosexual pairing. To willing act outside of that intent is like saying "I know you made me this way, but I like this better." Thus disrespecting God (our father) and breaking the 5th commandment. I can't say for 100% certainty if homosexuality is biological or not. Science may say that it is now, but science has been wrong in the past and it's not guaranteed to be right now, so I don't put much stock in what science says.

I know a lot of homosexuals don't like Christianity because of the anti-homosexuality it teaches, and there's really nothing I can do about that. Based on the scripture readings I've done and my personal studies I don't condone homosexuality, but I don't pull a Westboro Baptist and go all Nazi Germany on the homosexual community. I think what Christian's need to realize is there's nothing we can really do outside of fervent prayer. People are going to believe what they want to and act as liberally as they care. We can voice opinions but to shove something down someone's through only leads to violent and disgusting regurgitation, and nobody likes that. xp

Did you check any of the links either? I'm serious, I don't make these claims out of the air. Those links provided clear evidence and well thought out arguments addressing everything you said regarding the bible's message on homosexuality. neutral

As far as science "might be wrong", all understanding of the world today is brought to you by science. All of it. To just fling it off as nothing important (especially considering the large amount of evidence showing it is in fact biological with different brains, different hormones, and different reactions in ways that cannot be controlled), is actually rather arrogant. Why? Someone who hasn't spent their life studying these things is essentially told "yeah, no, I don't believe it." It's like me saying "well, yeah, air pollution happens but I don't believe it causes ill health effects" despite clear evidence contrary. This is no different. Arm chair "scientists" aren't more authoritative than scientists.

Anyway, that belief is entirely personal preference. As I said before, you choose everything else. Why is this issue so special? Slavery, pollution, rituals, all of it, a sin or not a sin depending on who you ask. All with biblical support for and against. Same for homosexuality. The most I can say is, well, just read the links.Anti-homosexuality isn't the only interpretation. Reverends and many more believe otherwise.

And while I can admit doing the same, are you really going to be arrogant enough to say they're wrong and you're right for the simple reason that you personally believe it's otherwise based on the same evidence they're using to say different? Equal evidence, same scriptures, different personal beliefs. It just goes into the same old argument of who's god is better, pretty much.  

[Guaif]

Garek Maxwell

Zuri-kai

Sorry, Garek, but I have to argue this one. I think Zippy is going about the explanation of the Christian view the wrong way. God does love unconditionally, it's more that he can't be in the presence of sin (well more rather sin can't be in the presence of God, so rather than appearing and suddenly vaporizing anything remotely sinful he acts from a distance).

The logic of homosexuality as a sin (outside it's obvious stating in Leviticus) is that God made us with the intent of heterosexual pairing. To willing act outside of that intent is like saying "I know you made me this way, but I like this better." Thus disrespecting God (our father) and breaking the 5th commandment. I can't say for 100% certainty if homosexuality is biological or not. Science may say that it is now, but science has been wrong in the past and it's not guaranteed to be right now, so I don't put much stock in what science says.

I know a lot of homosexuals don't like Christianity because of the anti-homosexuality it teaches, and there's really nothing I can do about that. Based on the scripture readings I've done and my personal studies I don't condone homosexuality, but I don't pull a Westboro Baptist and go all Nazi Germany on the homosexual community. I think what Christian's need to realize is there's nothing we can really do outside of fervent prayer. People are going to believe what they want to and act as liberally as they care. We can voice opinions but to shove something down someone's through only leads to violent and disgusting regurgitation, and nobody likes that. xp

Did you check any of the links either? I'm serious, I don't make these claims out of the air. Those links provided clear evidence and well thought out arguments addressing everything you said regarding the bible's message on homosexuality. neutral

As far as science "might be wrong", all understanding of the world today is brought to you by science. All of it. To just fling it off as nothing important (especially considering the large amount of evidence showing it is in fact biological with different brains, different hormones, and different reactions in ways that cannot be controlled), is actually rather arrogant. Why? Someone who hasn't spent their life studying these things is essentially told "yeah, no, I don't believe it." It's like me saying "well, yeah, air pollution happens but I don't believe it causes ill health effects" despite clear evidence contrary. This is no different. Arm chair "scientists" aren't more authoritative than scientists.

Anyway, that belief is entirely personal preference. As I said before, you choose everything else. Why is this issue so special? Slavery, pollution, rituals, all of it, a sin or not a sin depending on who you ask. All with biblical support for and against. Same for homosexuality. The most I can say is, well, just read the links.Anti-homosexuality isn't the only interpretation. Reverends and many more believe otherwise.

And while I can admit doing the same, are you really going to be arrogant enough to say they're wrong and you're right for the simple reason that you personally believe it's otherwise based on the same evidence they're using to say different? Equal evidence, same scriptures, different personal beliefs. It just goes into the same old argument of who's god is better, pretty much.

TO: Garek Maxwell

Oh I actually looked through some of the links you posted. Very interesting read, and I thank you for your posting of them. They were very informative and insightful!

TO: Zuri-kai

Hi! You mentioned Leviticus correct? Thanks to Mr. Maxwell's links I can post this. If you have any other scripture passages I'm sure I can find them. Mr. Maxwell made it really easy.

Leviticus : "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination." 19:22

THE TURNING: Okay, well, let's continue our march through the Bible, and get to Leviticus, where God says to Moses, among many other things, " You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination."

DINOVO: Okay, so, here you have the Jews differentiating themselves from the other great cultures of their day. In Leviticus you will find another six hundred strictures as well, including against eating shellfish, as well as spitting on the floor, prohibitions about women having their periods. There's all sorts of stuff there that we would now throw out, with very little thought. We would say, this is a people with very little in common with our people who have prohibitions for all sorts of strange reasons, and this would be of interest to a cultural anthropologist maybe, but it is certainly not anything we're going to live our lives by.

This is Rabbinical wisdom, this is not mine: the ban against homosexual sex acts is of the same order as not eating shellfish. So, if the Religious Right condemned the eating of shellfish in the same breath as homosexual acts, then maybe they would have it in context.

What's really true about Leviticus, and what kosher is about, is being mindful. Mindfulness about what you do, how you do it and why you do it. Mindful about the fact that God is aware of what you are doing, and God is present in what you are doing, and so you do it in a spirit of holiness. That holiness is imbued in every moment of your life. So, when you’re washing your dishes, what fork you use, what you eat with, all of this has to do with God in some beautiful and brilliant way. So, it's not about what fork you use, it's not about who you sleep with, it's about the mindfulness in which you engage in sexual acts, it's not about eating shellfish, it's about the mindfulness of the food that you put into your mouth - where did it come from, what pain when into producing it. So, that's what Leviticus is about, and this is what gets lost.  

[Zuri-kai]

Garek Maxwell

Zuri-kai

Sorry, Garek, but I have to argue this one. I think Zippy is going about the explanation of the Christian view the wrong way. God does love unconditionally, it's more that he can't be in the presence of sin (well more rather sin can't be in the presence of God, so rather than appearing and suddenly vaporizing anything remotely sinful he acts from a distance).

The logic of homosexuality as a sin (outside it's obvious stating in Leviticus) is that God made us with the intent of heterosexual pairing. To willing act outside of that intent is like saying "I know you made me this way, but I like this better." Thus disrespecting God (our father) and breaking the 5th commandment. I can't say for 100% certainty if homosexuality is biological or not. Science may say that it is now, but science has been wrong in the past and it's not guaranteed to be right now, so I don't put much stock in what science says.

I know a lot of homosexuals don't like Christianity because of the anti-homosexuality it teaches, and there's really nothing I can do about that. Based on the scripture readings I've done and my personal studies I don't condone homosexuality, but I don't pull a Westboro Baptist and go all Nazi Germany on the homosexual community. I think what Christian's need to realize is there's nothing we can really do outside of fervent prayer. People are going to believe what they want to and act as liberally as they care. We can voice opinions but to shove something down someone's through only leads to violent and disgusting regurgitation, and nobody likes that. xp

Did you check any of the links either? I'm serious, I don't make these claims out of the air. Those links provided clear evidence and well thought out arguments addressing everything you said regarding the bible's message on homosexuality. neutral

As far as science "might be wrong", all understanding of the world today is brought to you by science. All of it. To just fling it off as nothing important (especially considering the large amount of evidence showing it is in fact biological with different brains, different hormones, and different reactions in ways that cannot be controlled), is actually rather arrogant. Why? Someone who hasn't spent their life studying these things is essentially told "yeah, no, I don't believe it." It's like me saying "well, yeah, air pollution happens but I don't believe it causes ill health effects" despite clear evidence contrary. This is no different. Arm chair "scientists" aren't more authoritative than scientists.

Anyway, that belief is entirely personal preference. As I said before, you choose everything else. Why is this issue so special? Slavery, pollution, rituals, all of it, a sin or not a sin depending on who you ask. All with biblical support for and against. Same for homosexuality. The most I can say is, well, just read the links.Anti-homosexuality isn't the only interpretation. Reverends and many more believe otherwise.

And while I can admit doing the same, are you really going to be arrogant enough to say they're wrong and you're right for the simple reason that you personally believe it's otherwise based on the same evidence they're using to say different? Equal evidence, same scriptures, different personal beliefs. It just goes into the same old argument of who's god is better, pretty much.

I didn't read them, mostly because I'm checking this in passing while I work and my eyes need to stay on what I'm doing lest I stab myself with my needle brush again. =/

And while I accept science shows a lot of things, psychological science specifically is still too new a science for me to put much faith in, and that's what all of these studies (at least the ones I've seen argued by many people) are using. Where as gstronomy, geology, and the other sciences that study external, more macro science things have been around longer and have more experience.

I will have to read some of those links though because my personal studies of the scripture have not shown anything positive about God's view on homosexuality, so I don't see where reverends and other Biblically learned figures are getting their ideas.

To answer this, yes I am being arrogant enough. I was taught to stand firm in what I believe and that's what I'm doing. Simply be glad I'm not the type to force my beliefs because then we'd have real problems.  

[Guaif]

Hmm... If you didn't have the time to read then why post? Giving an answer before hearing both sides seems a little naive.

Oh! Your confusing me, there was no new science. Its actually a different perspective. Actually a really legitimate one at that.


So if you don't believe homosexuality is right because of leviticus. And that is your reasoning. Then what about shellfish and everything else?  

[Garek Maxwell]

Bohemian Hybrid

TO: Garek Maxwell

Oh I actually looked through some of the links you posted. Very interesting read, and I thank you for your posting of them. They were very informative and insightful!

Thank you, it becomes a little grating when I make claims, back them up, and the evidence is ignored...

Zuri-kai

I didn't read them, mostly because I'm checking this in passing while I work and my eyes need to stay on what I'm doing lest I stab myself with my needle brush again. =/

And while I accept science shows a lot of things, psychological science specifically is still too new a science for me to put much faith in, and that's what all of these studies (at least the ones I've seen argued by many people) are using. Where as gstronomy, geology, and the other sciences that study external, more macro science things have been around longer and have more experience.

I will have to read some of those links though because my personal studies of the scripture have not shown anything positive about God's view on homosexuality, so I don't see where reverends and other Biblically learned figures are getting their ideas.

To answer this, yes I am being arrogant enough. I was taught to stand firm in what I believe and that's what I'm doing. Simply be glad I'm not the type to force my beliefs because then we'd have real problems.

Ah, then be careful. neutral

As for the science, only one link came from the APA, the rest where all biological dealing with factual things you can see and/or touch. In fact, out of the list:

Brain Chemistry - Gay men respond differently to pheromones
Brain Physical Make Up - Gay Men's Brains Found Different
Brain Physical Make Up - The Homosexual Brain
Psychology - APA on Homosexuality
Genetics - Reuters: Gene Alters Sexuality of Fruit Flies
Genetics - Cell: Fruit Fly Experiment
Genetics - Homosexuality-A Natural Cause?
Brain Physical Make Up - A Difference in Hypothalmic Structure Between Heterosexual and Homosexual Men(study published in Science, 253: 1034-1037, 1991)
Brain Chemistry - NewScientist.com: Pheromone attracts straight women and gay men
Brain Chemistry - For Gay Men, an Attraction to a Different Kind of Scent
Brain Physical Make Up - Symmetry Of Homosexual Brain Resembles That Of Opposite Sex, Swedish Study Finds

The links regarding animals further points towards biology with evidence coming from zoology and other fields. It's not just one or two sources, these are comprehensive across multiple field links showing all the same thing, biology. As said way back, the debate isn't nature vs. nurture, it's genetics vs. hormones vs. both.

As for my personal studies, I'm thoroughly convinced homosexuality is not a sin. Do I have a stake in this? Sort of. If it is, then I no longer have reason to stay Christian. My creator disowns me, essentially, and there is no possible single way it can be argued otherwise. Say it until you're blue in the face, but that is the consequence of that belief. Alienation.

But the alternative is that, y'know, maybe God isn't a d**k. Maybe we got it wrong and I've just only heard one view this whole time, a view with an agenda that, when you look at it time and time again, only causes hurt and pain. The anti-homosexuality belief has, as a fact, only caused more harm than good. Families torn apart, suicide rates higher than should ever be acceptable, depression, and so much hate. It does more harm than good, if there ever was any good to begin with. Facts show it. I can get suicide rates. These things don't come from nowhere. The psychological and social torment doesn't come from nowhere. Instead, just maybe, God loves everyone and approves of love between two adults, regardless of gender or sex.  

[Zuri-kai]

Bohemian Hybrid

Hmm... If you didn't have the time to read then why post? Giving an answer before hearing both sides seems a little naive.

Oh! Your confusing me, there was no new science. Its actually a different perspective. Actually a really legitimate one at that.


So if you don't believe homosexuality is right because of leviticus. And that is your reasoning. Then what about shellfish and everything else?

Believe me, I've heard both sides. Having non-Christian bi/homosexual friends has seen to that. >.<

That comes down to context. Most of Leviticus was law written for sanitation and longevity of the people (because life was....dirty back then). However homosexuality is also mentioned in Corintians and in Romans (especially in Romans 1), and it's not once looked kindly upon. Shellfish is not. So even if you interpret what I said as "dissmiss the Levitical law" you can't deny the condemning passages about homosexuality elsewhere in the Bible.

You all are making it out as though I'm saying "Youza gonna burn in hell for havin' samey sex sex. O_O" which is rather irritating. I'm stating what I believe and never once said that people had to conform or burn.
I have no claim to judge, that's God's right. I'm only suppose to follow after his example which is to show love to everyone. Not necessarily loving what they do, but who they are as people.

@Garek: Now that you listed them off for me they likely would have gone way over my head. It's been...too many years since I've studied any sort of biology and biological science has always gone just over my head. I was better and geo-science and astro-science. -_-

I'm so sorry things are the way they are though. Humans are so incredibly flawed, Christian's as a whole have really fallen quite short of showing God's character. I sometimes wonder if humans are even capable of loving the sinner while hating the sin. That's really what's resulted in the image Christain's have now. People think that because someone's not in alignment with God it's okay to be less than loving. So incredibly wrong, and so incredibly sad.  

[Guaif]

Zuri-kai

Bohemian Hybrid

Hmm... If you didn't have the time to read then why post? Giving an answer before hearing both sides seems a little naive.

Oh! Your confusing me, there was no new science. Its actually a different perspective. Actually a really legitimate one at that.


So if you don't believe homosexuality is right because of leviticus. And that is your reasoning. Then what about shellfish and everything else?

Believe me, I've heard both sides. Having non-Christian bi/homosexual friends has seen to that. >.<

That comes down to context. Most of Leviticus was law written for sanitation and longevity of the people (because life was....dirty back then). However homosexuality is also mentioned in Corintians and in Romans (especially in Romans 1), and it's not once looked kindly upon. Shellfish is not. So even if you interpret what I said as "dissmiss the Levitical law" you can't deny the condemning passages about homosexuality elsewhere in the Bible.

You all are making it out as though I'm saying "Youza gonna burn in hell for havin' samey sex sex. O_O" which is rather irritating. I'm stating what I believe and never once said that people had to conform or burn.
I have no claim to judge, that's God's right. I'm only suppose to follow after his example which is to show love to everyone. Not necessarily loving what they do, but who they are as people.

I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to irk you. I was just confused. Hmm... I suppose I shouldn't have butted in. My apologies.  

[Zuri-kai]

Bohemian Hybrid

Zuri-kai

Bohemian Hybrid

Hmm... If you didn't have the time to read then why post? Giving an answer before hearing both sides seems a little naive.

Oh! Your confusing me, there was no new science. Its actually a different perspective. Actually a really legitimate one at that.


So if you don't believe homosexuality is right because of leviticus. And that is your reasoning. Then what about shellfish and everything else?

Believe me, I've heard both sides. Having non-Christian bi/homosexual friends has seen to that. >.<

That comes down to context. Most of Leviticus was law written for sanitation and longevity of the people (because life was....dirty back then). However homosexuality is also mentioned in Corintians and in Romans (especially in Romans 1), and it's not once looked kindly upon. Shellfish is not. So even if you interpret what I said as "dissmiss the Levitical law" you can't deny the condemning passages about homosexuality elsewhere in the Bible.

You all are making it out as though I'm saying "Youza gonna burn in hell for havin' samey sex sex. O_O" which is rather irritating. I'm stating what I believe and never once said that people had to conform or burn.
I have no claim to judge, that's God's right. I'm only suppose to follow after his example which is to show love to everyone. Not necessarily loving what they do, but who they are as people.

I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to irk you. I was just confused. Hmm... I suppose I shouldn't have butted in. My apologies.

No, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have sounded like such a pig. My sleeping habits have been less than stellar lately and I had a momentary lapse of control and popped. You have every right to voice what you think (and with the activity in this guild God knows we need it), and your point really was a good one. I should be the one to apologize. sweatdrop  

[Garek Maxwell]

Bohemian Hybrid

I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to irk you. I was just confused. Hmm... I suppose I shouldn't have butted in. My apologies.

If you're curious, both those passages mentioned are addressed in the links I provided. Zuri'll find that out too, but I just thought I would mention it as well.  

[Guaif]

Thank you very much. And Zuri, its okay I am guilty as well. I hope you get a good nights rest. Hehe. Homosexuality is a very scary thought for me. It makes my stomach quiver, my heart sink, almost puts me on the urge of crying really. Well... not really homosexuality, but what comes with it and how people might react. I really just want happiness on both sides.  

[Zuri-kai]

Garek Maxwell

Bohemian Hybrid

I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to irk you. I was just confused. Hmm... I suppose I shouldn't have butted in. My apologies.

If you're curious, both those passages mentioned are addressed in the links I provided. Zuri'll find that out too, but I just thought I would mention it as well.

Indeed. I am reading some of them....it's just really slow going. I look away to brush and then loose my place and end up re-reading paragraphs. XP

I read the one with the interview with the Reverend, and while I can see where she's getting some of her points, it feels like she's basically dismissing the whole Bible as contextual and not something to be lived by and taken seriously. =/  

[Garek Maxwell]

Zuri-kai

Indeed. I am reading some of them....it's just really slow going. I look away to brush and then loose my place and end up re-reading paragraphs. XP

I read the one with the interview with the Reverend, and while I can see where she's getting some of her points, it feels like she's basically dismissing the whole Bible as contextual and not something to be lived by and taken seriously. =/

Maybe you should wait until you're not so busy? razz
Or when it's safe? I don't know what you're doing. sweatdrop

As for how to see the bible, that's just another option. Lots of people treat the bible differently. Some take it all literal word for word, even when reality contradicts the claims made.

Personally, the best method I've found is to simply treat the bible as just a long story with the message "love thy neighbor" as the rule to follow alongside the belief. Everything else is supportive fluff. Not even going to get into the full scale of why, since it goes into things I'm rustier on since graduating from college. Pretty much history is my answer.