Firearm n00bs: Post your links to them here.

[Recon_Ninja_985]

Das Rabble Rouser

Fresnel

I think the Uzi was invented in the late 40's, to mid 50's? No later than '59, definitely.

Well it obviously wasn't developed before the late 40's since Israel was established in 48. xd

According to worldguns.ru it was developed in 49 and was manufactured starting in 51.

EDIT: according to them the micro uzi has a ROF of 1250 rpm and a capacity of only 20 rounds. xd At least the other variants could hold up to 32 rounds. The Micro is the smallest variant, has the highest ROF, and the smallest capacity.

I fired a mini uzi with 25rd mags, and even that felt like it didnt last long enough sad

at least I think it was the mini, could have been the full size one but it was definitely an uzi. I remember not being able to understand what the hell setting the selector was on because it was all in yiddish  

[Valkyrie Hatter]

Fresnel

Valkyrie Hatter

Fresnel

Recon_Ninja_985

Requiem in Mortis

That's a design problem with open-bolt weapons in general, I think- if jarred with enough force the bolt will slide forward.

theres a lot of very safe open bolt guns.

an UZI will not fire no matter how much it's dropped or how hard you slam it on the ground.

the grip safety locks the whole weapon until someone has it firmly in their hands

I wouldn't trust them very far, personally. You ever smacked the butt of an empty/open AR on the ground? If there's no bolt catch engaged with the magazine (as in loaded or no mag), it's possible to jar the carrier down into the buffer tube just a smidge, but it's enough to disengage the hold-open and drop the bolt. Not every AR does it, and some do it more readily than others, but I used to use it in competition as a shortcut when dropping into prone for a rapid-fire string. My assigned loaner rifle, before I got my own, just needed a firm tap.

Point being, if that can happen with an AR, I wouldn't be surprised if it could happen with other guns as well, and with a firing pin fixed to the bolt face, it could potentially spell disaster.

Why was the UZI phased out? Seemed like a very good design for a T gun.

Subguns in general have started being phased out everywhere in favor of [sub-]carbines and shotguns, and the Uzi was Israeli. Israel LOVES to be on the cutting edge as much as we do, and they have the bonus of the Russian DGAF mindset. I think the Uzi was invented in the late 40's, to mid 50's? No later than '59, definitely.

Yeah but right after the 1980s it seemed like they just disappeared. I'm talking the original UZI not the mini and micro.

Russia for some reason has spiked in the SMG design depart from the turn of the 1990s. Hell they've just come out with the PP-90A1 or something like that that's almost like the Bizon only instead a solid operation from loading to popping in another mag it's kind of retarded and I would take the thing if it was given to me for free.

A Bizon on the other hand...

No SMGs haven't been phased out entirely. The Russians still employ suppressed SMGs for covert missions with SPETSNAZ. Hell they still even use the PP-19 Bizon from the 1990s.

AS Val is trying to compete but we've yet to hear more on how it's doing besides the technical bullshit that's listed on World Guns. Hardly any reviews on the Russian end of the line.

While the AS Val is nice but if I was in the place of a SPETSNAZ I'd take the Bizon because it has 64 round helical mags or 45 round sticks over a 20 round box and it's smaller.

Bizon would act as an AK in case of covert combat whereas the AS Val is the Dragunov designated riflemen weapon.  

[Fresnel]

Recon_Ninja_985

Fresnel

Recon_Ninja_985

Requiem in Mortis

That's a design problem with open-bolt weapons in general, I think- if jarred with enough force the bolt will slide forward.

theres a lot of very safe open bolt guns.

an UZI will not fire no matter how much it's dropped or how hard you slam it on the ground.

the grip safety locks the whole weapon until someone has it firmly in their hands

I wouldn't trust them very far, personally. You ever smacked the butt of an empty/open AR on the ground? If there's no bolt catch engaged with the magazine (as in loaded or no mag), it's possible to jar the carrier down into the buffer tube just a smidge, but it's enough to disengage the hold-open and drop the bolt. Not every AR does it, and some do it more readily than others, but I used to use it in competition as a shortcut when dropping into prone for a rapid-fire string. My assigned loaner rifle, before I got my own, just needed a firm tap.

Point being, if that can happen with an AR, I wouldn't be surprised if it could happen with other guns as well, and with a firing pin fixed to the bolt face, it could potentially spell disaster.

the bolt hold open of an AR and the safety mechanism of an UZI are 2 TOTALLY different things.

an AR's bolt hold open is a tiny piece that is designed to drop with no pressure against it until it is held up by the follower of a magazine or the BCG moves backward. even patting the stock lightly could send the BCG forward.


UZI's safety mechanism can only be disengaged by a firm grip. when there is little or no pressure on the grip safety the entire weapon is locked up once the bolt is to the rear. the trigger will do nothing and the bolt is blocked from moving. think of it as a 1911 but with even more safeties going for it.

I dont see the point in comparing 2 weapons that are mechanically incomparable and operating on 2 entirely different principles. with different sets of safeties too.

UZI has 2 manual safeties if you count the grip safety, and a number of internal safeties.
an AR has 1 external safety and no internal safeties that I can think of because that's all it needs.

it's just the difference between open vs closed bolt, each has their problems and solutions.
both are generally equally safe to field and fire, and drop when made right

I prefer closed bolt because firing open bolt guns feels kind of awkward and foreign to me. but i'm not going to discredit the system when I know it works just fine with the right improvements.

To be perfectly fair, when it comes to talking about an open-bolt firearm going off when dropped, a trigger safety doesn't necessarily mean anything. But my point was that open-bolt firearms in general pose a greater threat for an AD, because the only thing that has to happen is the bolt has to close, and depending on design, a good solid whack on one part of the gun or another could easily cause that to happen.  

[Fresnel]

Das Rabble Rouser

Fresnel

I think the Uzi was invented in the late 40's, to mid 50's? No later than '59, definitely.

Well it obviously wasn't developed before the late 40's since Israel was established in 48. xd

According to worldguns.ru it was developed in 49 and was manufactured starting in 51.

EDIT: according to them the micro uzi has a ROF of 1250 rpm and a capacity of only 20 rounds. xd At least the other variants could hold up to 32 rounds. The Micro is the smallest variant, has the highest ROF, and the smallest capacity.

You know, that actually makes sense. The Glock 18 also has an incredible cyclic rate, in the 1200rpm neighborhood as well, IIRC. It's the lighter weight of the cycling parts compared to the identical force of a 9mm blowback.  

[Fresnel]

Valkyrie Hatter

Fresnel

Valkyrie Hatter

Fresnel

Recon_Ninja_985

Requiem in Mortis

That's a design problem with open-bolt weapons in general, I think- if jarred with enough force the bolt will slide forward.

theres a lot of very safe open bolt guns.

an UZI will not fire no matter how much it's dropped or how hard you slam it on the ground.

the grip safety locks the whole weapon until someone has it firmly in their hands

I wouldn't trust them very far, personally. You ever smacked the butt of an empty/open AR on the ground? If there's no bolt catch engaged with the magazine (as in loaded or no mag), it's possible to jar the carrier down into the buffer tube just a smidge, but it's enough to disengage the hold-open and drop the bolt. Not every AR does it, and some do it more readily than others, but I used to use it in competition as a shortcut when dropping into prone for a rapid-fire string. My assigned loaner rifle, before I got my own, just needed a firm tap.

Point being, if that can happen with an AR, I wouldn't be surprised if it could happen with other guns as well, and with a firing pin fixed to the bolt face, it could potentially spell disaster.

Why was the UZI phased out? Seemed like a very good design for a T gun.

Subguns in general have started being phased out everywhere in favor of [sub-]carbines and shotguns, and the Uzi was Israeli. Israel LOVES to be on the cutting edge as much as we do, and they have the bonus of the Russian DGAF mindset. I think the Uzi was invented in the late 40's, to mid 50's? No later than '59, definitely.

Yeah but right after the 1980s it seemed like they just disappeared. I'm talking the original UZI not the mini and micro.

Russia for some reason has spiked in the SMG design depart from the turn of the 1990s. Hell they've just come out with the PP-90A1 or something like that that's almost like the Bizon only instead a solid operation from loading to popping in another mag it's kind of retarded and I would take the thing if it was given to me for free.

A Bizon on the other hand...

No SMGs haven't been phased out entirely. The Russians still employ suppressed SMGs for covert missions with SPETSNAZ. Hell they still even use the PP-19 Bizon from the 1990s.

AS Val is trying to compete but we've yet to hear more on how it's doing besides the technical bullshit that's listed on World Guns. Hardly any reviews on the Russian end of the line.

While the AS Val is nice but if I was in the place of a SPETSNAZ I'd take the Bizon because it has 64 round helical mags or 45 round sticks over a 20 round box and it's smaller.

Bizon would act as an AK in case of covert combat whereas the AS Val is the Dragunov designated riflemen weapon.

Well, I did say "started". They still have their uses, but an AR with an 11" barrel can do most of them quite well. MP5s are still really popular in Britain, for one. Pretty much the only department that a subgun beats a carbine in is its readiness in accepting suppression. You can easily get 9mm or .45 subsonics, but .223 travels at damn near mach three, there's no way in s**t you're suppressing that effectively.

Also, did your comma key break? That post was surprisingly difficult to read, and you're generally much more literate than that.  

[Valkyrie Hatter]

Fresnel

Valkyrie Hatter

Fresnel

Valkyrie Hatter

Fresnel

I wouldn't trust them very far, personally. You ever smacked the butt of an empty/open AR on the ground? If there's no bolt catch engaged with the magazine (as in loaded or no mag), it's possible to jar the carrier down into the buffer tube just a smidge, but it's enough to disengage the hold-open and drop the bolt. Not every AR does it, and some do it more readily than others, but I used to use it in competition as a shortcut when dropping into prone for a rapid-fire string. My assigned loaner rifle, before I got my own, just needed a firm tap.

Point being, if that can happen with an AR, I wouldn't be surprised if it could happen with other guns as well, and with a firing pin fixed to the bolt face, it could potentially spell disaster.

Why was the UZI phased out? Seemed like a very good design for a T gun.

Subguns in general have started being phased out everywhere in favor of [sub-]carbines and shotguns, and the Uzi was Israeli. Israel LOVES to be on the cutting edge as much as we do, and they have the bonus of the Russian DGAF mindset. I think the Uzi was invented in the late 40's, to mid 50's? No later than '59, definitely.

Yeah but right after the 1980s it seemed like they just disappeared. I'm talking the original UZI not the mini and micro.

Russia for some reason has spiked in the SMG design depart from the turn of the 1990s. Hell they've just come out with the PP-90A1 or something like that that's almost like the Bizon only instead a solid operation from loading to popping in another mag it's kind of retarded and I would take the thing if it was given to me for free.

A Bizon on the other hand...

No SMGs haven't been phased out entirely. The Russians still employ suppressed SMGs for covert missions with SPETSNAZ. Hell they still even use the PP-19 Bizon from the 1990s.

AS Val is trying to compete but we've yet to hear more on how it's doing besides the technical bullshit that's listed on World Guns. Hardly any reviews on the Russian end of the line.

While the AS Val is nice but if I was in the place of a SPETSNAZ I'd take the Bizon because it has 64 round helical mags or 45 round sticks over a 20 round box and it's smaller.

Bizon would act as an AK in case of covert combat whereas the AS Val is the Dragunov designated riflemen weapon.

Well, I did say "started". They still have their uses, but an AR with an 11" barrel can do most of them quite well. MP5s are still really popular in Britain, for one. Pretty much the only department that a subgun beats a carbine in is its readiness in accepting suppression. You can easily get 9mm or .45 subsonics, but .223 travels at damn near mach three, there's no way in s**t you're suppressing that effectively.

Also, did your comma key break? That post was surprisingly difficult to read, and you're generally much more literate than that.

Sorry, mah brain was a little scrambled.  

[Valkyrie Hatter]

Recon_Ninja_985

Das Rabble Rouser

Fresnel

I think the Uzi was invented in the late 40's, to mid 50's? No later than '59, definitely.

Well it obviously wasn't developed before the late 40's since Israel was established in 48. xd

According to worldguns.ru it was developed in 49 and was manufactured starting in 51.

EDIT: according to them the micro uzi has a ROF of 1250 rpm and a capacity of only 20 rounds. xd At least the other variants could hold up to 32 rounds. The Micro is the smallest variant, has the highest ROF, and the smallest capacity.

I fired a mini uzi with 25rd mags, and even that felt like it didnt last long enough sad

at least I think it was the mini, could have been the full size one but it was definitely an uzi. I remember not being able to understand what the hell setting the selector was on because it was all in yiddish

A mini shouldn't fire that fast. A micro uzi is a different story though.  

[Requiem ex Inferni]

I think full-sized SMGs are slowly being outdated. They don't really do anything you couldn't solve with either a carbine (more firepower and range) or PDW (more maneuverability for the most part).  

[Recon_Ninja_985]

Requiem in Mortis

I think full-sized SMGs are slowly being outdated. They don't really do anything you couldn't solve with either a carbine (more firepower and range) or PDW (more maneuverability for the most part).

I thought SMG's were PDW's

MP5k-PDW is a good example  

[Fresnel]

Recon_Ninja_985

Requiem in Mortis

I think full-sized SMGs are slowly being outdated. They don't really do anything you couldn't solve with either a carbine (more firepower and range) or PDW (more maneuverability for the most part).

I thought SMG's were PDW's

MP5k-PDW is a good example

Nah, PDW's generally use a round designed for penetration, like 5.7 and 4.6. Or that one (and only one) MP5k in .224 BOZ. I'unno, if they want AP capabilities in a PDW, I don't see why they don't just bring back the THV rounds that came out years ago.



The Czech designers claimed that after passing through a IIA vest, a 9mm THV still got 13" of penetration.  

[Valkyrie Hatter]

Fresnel

Recon_Ninja_985

Requiem in Mortis

I think full-sized SMGs are slowly being outdated. They don't really do anything you couldn't solve with either a carbine (more firepower and range) or PDW (more maneuverability for the most part).

I thought SMG's were PDW's

MP5k-PDW is a good example

Nah, PDW's generally use a round designed for penetration, like 5.7 and 4.6. Or that one (and only one) MP5k in .224 BOZ. I'unno, if they want AP capabilities in a PDW, I don't see why they don't just bring back the THV rounds that came out years ago.



The Czech designers claimed that after passing through a IIA vest, a 9mm THV still got 13" of penetration.

Why would a Tok round need a BOZ tip? It's gets AP capability with just an FMJ.  

[Fresnel]

Valkyrie Hatter

Fresnel

Recon_Ninja_985

Requiem in Mortis

I think full-sized SMGs are slowly being outdated. They don't really do anything you couldn't solve with either a carbine (more firepower and range) or PDW (more maneuverability for the most part).

I thought SMG's were PDW's

MP5k-PDW is a good example

Nah, PDW's generally use a round designed for penetration, like 5.7 and 4.6. Or that one (and only one) MP5k in .224 BOZ. I'unno, if they want AP capabilities in a PDW, I don't see why they don't just bring back the THV rounds that came out years ago.



The Czech designers claimed that after passing through a IIA vest, a 9mm THV still got 13" of penetration.

Why would a Tok round need a BOZ tip? It's gets AP capability with just an FMJ.

Anti-tank.

But no, really, probably for harder armors. HDPE armor plates and the like.  

[Recon_Ninja_985]

Fresnel

Recon_Ninja_985

Requiem in Mortis

I think full-sized SMGs are slowly being outdated. They don't really do anything you couldn't solve with either a carbine (more firepower and range) or PDW (more maneuverability for the most part).

I thought SMG's were PDW's

MP5k-PDW is a good example

Nah, PDW's generally use a round designed for penetration, like 5.7 and 4.6. Or that one (and only one) MP5k in .224 BOZ. I'unno, if they want AP capabilities in a PDW, I don't see why they don't just bring back the THV rounds that came out years ago.



The Czech designers claimed that after passing through a IIA vest, a 9mm THV still got 13" of penetration.

if thats the case then they shouldnt be calling it the MP5k-PDW

"In 1991 a further variant of the MP5K was developed, designated the MP5K-PDW (PDW – Personal Defense Weapon) that retained the compact dimensions of the MP5K but restored the fire handling characteristics of the full-size MP5A2."

I dont think it's the penetration that the main intent is/was.

I think the original intent is to make an ultra compact backup weapon that offered more firepower than a handgun could.  

[Fresnel]

Recon_Ninja_985

Fresnel

Recon_Ninja_985

Requiem in Mortis

I think full-sized SMGs are slowly being outdated. They don't really do anything you couldn't solve with either a carbine (more firepower and range) or PDW (more maneuverability for the most part).

I thought SMG's were PDW's

MP5k-PDW is a good example

Nah, PDW's generally use a round designed for penetration, like 5.7 and 4.6. Or that one (and only one) MP5k in .224 BOZ. I'unno, if they want AP capabilities in a PDW, I don't see why they don't just bring back the THV rounds that came out years ago.

The Czech designers claimed that after passing through a IIA vest, a 9mm THV still got 13" of penetration.

if thats the case then they shouldnt be calling it the MP5k-PDW

"In 1991 a further variant of the MP5K was developed, designated the MP5K-PDW (PDW – Personal Defense Weapon) that retained the compact dimensions of the MP5K but restored the fire handling characteristics of the full-size MP5A2."

I dont think it's the penetration that the main intent is/was.

I think the original intent is to make an ultra compact backup weapon that offered more firepower than a handgun could.

I think PDW means whatever you want it to mean, IMHO. If that was true, the MAC-10 would be a PDW, but it's not, and the P90 wouldn't be (as it's too large to be considered "ultra-compact" IMO), but it is. At best it's a definition-less term, at worst it's H&K with their thumbs up their asses again.  

[Recon_Ninja_985]

Fresnel

Recon_Ninja_985

Fresnel

Recon_Ninja_985

Requiem in Mortis

I think full-sized SMGs are slowly being outdated. They don't really do anything you couldn't solve with either a carbine (more firepower and range) or PDW (more maneuverability for the most part).

I thought SMG's were PDW's

MP5k-PDW is a good example

Nah, PDW's generally use a round designed for penetration, like 5.7 and 4.6. Or that one (and only one) MP5k in .224 BOZ. I'unno, if they want AP capabilities in a PDW, I don't see why they don't just bring back the THV rounds that came out years ago.

The Czech designers claimed that after passing through a IIA vest, a 9mm THV still got 13" of penetration.

if thats the case then they shouldnt be calling it the MP5k-PDW

"In 1991 a further variant of the MP5K was developed, designated the MP5K-PDW (PDW – Personal Defense Weapon) that retained the compact dimensions of the MP5K but restored the fire handling characteristics of the full-size MP5A2."

I dont think it's the penetration that the main intent is/was.

I think the original intent is to make an ultra compact backup weapon that offered more firepower than a handgun could.

I think PDW means whatever you want it to mean, IMHO. If that was true, the MAC-10 would be a PDW, but it's not, and the P90 wouldn't be (as it's too large to be considered "ultra-compact" IMO), but it is. At best it's a definition-less term, at worst it's H&K with their thumbs up their asses again.

well actually the mp5k pdw was among the first to be officially developed for the role.

you were right about the body armor purpose of the pdw.

the mp5 pdw was short lived because it didnt meet the armor piercing goals. doesn't mean it didn't find other uses as a backup weapon.