Advise Me, Friends

[ArmasTermin]

A friend of mine (who has actually fired a shotgun, unlike me) told me the extra inch and a half won't make much of a difference in any situation. I would prefer to not have the heavy barrel, though. I don't plan to be knocking this thing around too much.

The extra price isn't a big deal. If I can get it for inside of $500 that's fine.

I guess I'll go over everything once again, and make sure I know what I want and what I need.

Good thing I don't have the money together right now. Keeps me from making a stupid, quick decision.

EDIT: Currently set on the 9-shot (wow that's a lot) 590A1, 20", with bead sight. I don't like the higher weight and price, but oh well...

Could still change my mind.  

[Fresnel]

ArmasTermin

A friend of mine (who has actually fired a shotgun, unlike me) told me the extra inch and a half won't make much of a difference in any situation. I would prefer to not have the heavy barrel, though. I don't plan to be knocking this thing around too much.

The extra price isn't a big deal. If I can get it for inside of $500 that's fine.

I guess I'll go over everything once again, and make sure I know what I want and what I need.

Good thing I don't have the money together right now. Keeps me from making a stupid, quick decision.

EDIT: Currently set on the 9-shot (wow that's a lot) 590A1, 20", with bead sight. I don't like the higher weight and price, but oh well...

Could still change my mind.

That Remington you were looking at MSRP's for $500. Kinda stretching your budget there.  

[ArmasTermin]

Fresnel

ArmasTermin

A friend of mine (who has actually fired a shotgun, unlike me) told me the extra inch and a half won't make much of a difference in any situation. I would prefer to not have the heavy barrel, though. I don't plan to be knocking this thing around too much.

The extra price isn't a big deal. If I can get it for inside of $500 that's fine.

I guess I'll go over everything once again, and make sure I know what I want and what I need.

Good thing I don't have the money together right now. Keeps me from making a stupid, quick decision.

EDIT: Currently set on the 9-shot (wow that's a lot) 590A1, 20", with bead sight. I don't like the higher weight and price, but oh well...

Could still change my mind.

That Remington you were looking at MSRP's for $500. Kinda stretching your budget there.

MSRP doesn't mean a lot to me. The 500 Persuader I saw at Academy was going for $350 and MSRPs at $409. And supposedly Academy is over-priced?

The Remington does breech the gap between lower capacity 500 Persuader and higher-capacity, higher weight 590A1.

EDIT: I've considered the applications of a long gun in practice. The fact that it's a primary demands a high amount of power from it in one way or the other. High capacity or large damage per round. If I were to consider a shotgun in a home defense only situation, the 500 Persuader would do fine, even excell. As would the Remington 870 Express Tactical. But this shotgun should serve every conceivable purpose I can think of. In that position, the idea of limiting myself of round count to a firearm type that's already limited in that way is foolishness. That being said, although I don't like every single aspect of it (safety position, heavy barrel), I'll have to pick the Mossberg 590A1 20" barrel 9-shot model as the new obvious choice.

Thanks to everyone who's shared their knowledge and made my decision harder easier. I value all of your opinions (otherwise I wouldn't have asked) and although I didn't pick the gun some of you were putting forward (most of you, if I go by the poll) well... there you have it.

 

[Fresnel]

Someday, I'll have to tell you everything you missed out on with the 870. mrgreen  

[ArmasTermin]

Fresnel

Someday, I'll have to tell you everything you missed out on with the 870. mrgreen

I look forward to it. 3nodding  

[Man of the Demoneye]

Glad to see you have come to a decision and I hope you will enjoy it for years to come.  

[Hans Reiker]

Mossberg 590A1 or Remington 870 Police Magnum?  

[owenmarco]

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owenmarco

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owenmarco

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Testimonies with no corroborating evidence, and often no details. Just "it doesn't work". I'm looking for a scientific test with evidence, pictures, etc. Haven't found a damn thing.

Ohhhh... I think I've got it. Rifled choke tubes are a cheaper alternative to a rifled barrel when shooting CERTAIN LOADS. It works with sabots and will stabilize them to rifled slug/smoothbore accuracy, but that's not what it was designed for. Remington makes a "Buckhammer" slug which is .73" in diameter. 12 gauge is .72". The extra couple inches of rifled choke there will grab one of those SOLID and spin it hard, stabilizing it and significantly increasing accuracy. A fully-rifled barrel would do the job much more efficiently (dropping it somewhat short of saboted range, but still at rifled energy levels), but it also costs four times as much as a choke and is more difficult to switch out.



ETA: Maybe, maybe not. Remington claims their extended rifled choke is meant to be used with sabots. IDK, I'd have to see a test on that specific choke. Most rifled chokes aren't extended like the Remington.

Now, compare the cost of a choke and saboted slugs to the cost of good solid brennekke slugs that are of higher diameter than most foster slugs (tighter fit=more accuracy, but most open choke is required)
It's much more efficient to buy lots of $1 slugs instead of $3+ slugs, and use the extra savings on practice. Or, buy the damn barrel and make it dedicated already, or use a rifle. With the savings from the ammunition alone for practice, you could buy a rifled barrel from the manufacturer. And changing barrels is really easy. Slide halfway, unscrew cap, remove barrel, put new barrel on, screw cap, close slide. Or finish working it.

Okay, you're taking this like sabots are the be-all end-all, 100% certain reason for the rifled choke's existence. That's just plain not true. Stabilizing sabots is more likely than not not its prime purpose. It's built to stabilize specially-built non-rifled slugs, and Foster slugs. The fact that it's not to be used with Brennekes makes me think it's also slightly choked.

Quote:

What makes it worth it, at all, when all it does is make saboted rounds FIREABLE, when I can get the same/more accuracy out of foster or brennekkes that are a third of the price? Logic and physics say a couple inches (MAYBE) of sudden rifling aren't going to spin a soft lead projectile that SLAMS into it, and they aren't going to get purchase worth a damn on sabots. I would much rather spend the money on more ammunition to practice with.

And what DOES physics dictate? Either it spins, or it shears off a ******** of lead like rough wood on a plane. One way or another, SOMETHING happens, and I don't think it's shearing. It's soft, meaning it deforms easily. It grabs the rifling with a minimum of fuss and holds on for a spin. We're not talking ten rotations to an inch, we're talking closer to ten inches to one rotation. More likely than not if it's a 3" choke, it's got half a rotation in it. It's not a steep angle. And yeah it'll grab a sabot. Plastic deforms even easier than lead, and it's a wider shell, so it's got more pressure pushing outwards against the rifling.

So it only really works with special slugs? I still say it NOWHERE NEAR WORTH IT. Ammunition+practice>worthless choke.
Especially with that practice, I can get just as good groupings by selecting the right slug that fits my gun better, or even just the BRAND it likes. If I do my part, I could get 4" groups at 100 yards with the correct choice of slug, and maybe replacing the bead sight. And then, if I have to suddenly change ammunition, I don't have a "spreader" choke anymore, I still have plain Cylinder.
The cost is not worth the minuscule to none increase in effectiveness. Buckhammer slugs are usually $13-$15 for 5 depending on gauge and size (2 3/4 or 3), which is right up there with sabot slugs. I managed to find them on sale for $7 for 5. Foster slugs are often undersize, and squeeze down their soft lead "fins" when they aren't.
If I want maximum range and accuracy, I'll get a RIFLE. That's what they are FOR. Shotguns are designed for limited range in the first place.
Don't forget you can bugger up your threads because it tightens the choke when the slug hits it.

You really aren't seeing this, are you? Let's go over this. You find Foster slugs your gun is happy with, through a cylinder choke. Alright, you're pulling 3" groups at 100 yards. Not bad, really. Now you slap on a rifled choke. Oh look, you've just taken a proven match and added gyroscopic stability to it. Suddenly, 2" groups. It's like taking a Dodge Viper and dropping in a turbo. Sure it was fast to begin with, but now it's FASTER.

You getting it now?

Actually, it's like putting a "turbo" sticker on the Viper, after dropping in some aluminum foil, because it has yet to be proven in the slightest, with user testimonials being from "negligible" to "nothing extra at all".  

[owenmarco]

ArmasTermin

Fresnel

ArmasTermin

A friend of mine (who has actually fired a shotgun, unlike me) told me the extra inch and a half won't make much of a difference in any situation. I would prefer to not have the heavy barrel, though. I don't plan to be knocking this thing around too much.

The extra price isn't a big deal. If I can get it for inside of $500 that's fine.

I guess I'll go over everything once again, and make sure I know what I want and what I need.

Good thing I don't have the money together right now. Keeps me from making a stupid, quick decision.

EDIT: Currently set on the 9-shot (wow that's a lot) 590A1, 20", with bead sight. I don't like the higher weight and price, but oh well...

Could still change my mind.

That Remington you were looking at MSRP's for $500. Kinda stretching your budget there.

MSRP doesn't mean a lot to me. The 500 Persuader I saw at Academy was going for $350 and MSRPs at $409. And supposedly Academy is over-priced?

The Remington does breech the gap between lower capacity 500 Persuader and higher-capacity, higher weight 590A1.

EDIT: I've considered the applications of a long gun in practice. The fact that it's a primary demands a high amount of power from it in one way or the other. High capacity or large damage per round. If I were to consider a shotgun in a home defense only situation, the 500 Persuader would do fine, even excell. As would the Remington 870 Express Tactical. But this shotgun should serve every conceivable purpose I can think of. In that position, the idea of limiting myself of round count to a firearm type that's already limited in that way is foolishness. That being said, although I don't like every single aspect of it (safety position, heavy barrel), I'll have to pick the Mossberg 590A1 20" barrel 9-shot model as the new obvious choice.

Thanks to everyone who's shared their knowledge and made my decision harder easier. I value all of your opinions (otherwise I wouldn't have asked) and although I didn't pick the gun some of you were putting forward (most of you, if I go by the poll) well... there you have it.

You should be fine with the 590. If you don't want the heavier barrel, you can go for a plain 590 SPX instead of A1. It should lower the overall weight. Now, I tell you, with plain walmart Winchester Super-X target loads, just the weight of the shot in the shells is damn near another pound for seven rounds. Realize the longer magazine is going to weigh it down, and spread the balance more towards the middle-front (which I prefer over an overly rear- or overly front- balanced shotgun)

And if you REALLY want to lighten it up, if you don't get a stock with a pistol grip, I'll TOTALLY trade you my 7-shot M500 Persuader for it!
I kid, though if you really want to...

Nah. You did good. MSRP is a good way to compare prices, but often you're getting screwed if you're paying MSRP. A GREAT way to compare is to ask the dealer what they would charge you to order each respective gun. Now, that also depends on the dealer. Some actually use the MSRP, and others take THEIR cost and add x%.  

[owenmarco]

Fresnel

Someday, I'll have to tell you everything you missed out on with the 870. mrgreen

Not much?

All I can see is the different ergonomics (in my opinion--worse), and then the different available magazine capacities for a given barrel length. The 590 (unlike the M500) can use magazine extensions, so that's not an issue. In fact, the model he chose comes with one, I believe.
And the 870 might be a bit heavier, except for the heavy-walled barrel on the A1.

Either way he picked a gun that'll outlive him.



HEY! ARMAS! I forgot to put this in the other post.
Ammunition To Go has Fiocchi reduced-recoil #00 at $27 for 50.
Or, they have it for a bit less-per round for 100 rounds for $49.95, and about 3 cents per round cheaper at 250 for $119.95.
They also have Fiocchi high-velocity #00 for a little bit less for 50 or 100, but exactly the same cost for 250.
And they also have high-velocity #4 as the intermediate cost at 50 rounds for $26.95.
s**t, just look at the rest of their offerings and compare for yourself.  

[Fresnel]

Hans Reiker

Mossberg 590A1 or Remington 870 Police Magnum?

Personally, I'd take ghost-ring sights over just about any other gimmick. The police magnum, IIRC, has a bead.  

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

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owenmarco

Now, compare the cost of a choke and saboted slugs to the cost of good solid brennekke slugs that are of higher diameter than most foster slugs (tighter fit=more accuracy, but most open choke is required)
It's much more efficient to buy lots of $1 slugs instead of $3+ slugs, and use the extra savings on practice. Or, buy the damn barrel and make it dedicated already, or use a rifle. With the savings from the ammunition alone for practice, you could buy a rifled barrel from the manufacturer. And changing barrels is really easy. Slide halfway, unscrew cap, remove barrel, put new barrel on, screw cap, close slide. Or finish working it.

Okay, you're taking this like sabots are the be-all end-all, 100% certain reason for the rifled choke's existence. That's just plain not true. Stabilizing sabots is more likely than not not its prime purpose. It's built to stabilize specially-built non-rifled slugs, and Foster slugs. The fact that it's not to be used with Brennekes makes me think it's also slightly choked.

Quote:

What makes it worth it, at all, when all it does is make saboted rounds FIREABLE, when I can get the same/more accuracy out of foster or brennekkes that are a third of the price? Logic and physics say a couple inches (MAYBE) of sudden rifling aren't going to spin a soft lead projectile that SLAMS into it, and they aren't going to get purchase worth a damn on sabots. I would much rather spend the money on more ammunition to practice with.

And what DOES physics dictate? Either it spins, or it shears off a ******** of lead like rough wood on a plane. One way or another, SOMETHING happens, and I don't think it's shearing. It's soft, meaning it deforms easily. It grabs the rifling with a minimum of fuss and holds on for a spin. We're not talking ten rotations to an inch, we're talking closer to ten inches to one rotation. More likely than not if it's a 3" choke, it's got half a rotation in it. It's not a steep angle. And yeah it'll grab a sabot. Plastic deforms even easier than lead, and it's a wider shell, so it's got more pressure pushing outwards against the rifling.

So it only really works with special slugs? I still say it NOWHERE NEAR WORTH IT. Ammunition+practice>worthless choke.
Especially with that practice, I can get just as good groupings by selecting the right slug that fits my gun better, or even just the BRAND it likes. If I do my part, I could get 4" groups at 100 yards with the correct choice of slug, and maybe replacing the bead sight. And then, if I have to suddenly change ammunition, I don't have a "spreader" choke anymore, I still have plain Cylinder.
The cost is not worth the minuscule to none increase in effectiveness. Buckhammer slugs are usually $13-$15 for 5 depending on gauge and size (2 3/4 or 3), which is right up there with sabot slugs. I managed to find them on sale for $7 for 5. Foster slugs are often undersize, and squeeze down their soft lead "fins" when they aren't.
If I want maximum range and accuracy, I'll get a RIFLE. That's what they are FOR. Shotguns are designed for limited range in the first place.
Don't forget you can bugger up your threads because it tightens the choke when the slug hits it.

You really aren't seeing this, are you? Let's go over this. You find Foster slugs your gun is happy with, through a cylinder choke. Alright, you're pulling 3" groups at 100 yards. Not bad, really. Now you slap on a rifled choke. Oh look, you've just taken a proven match and added gyroscopic stability to it. Suddenly, 2" groups. It's like taking a Dodge Viper and dropping in a turbo. Sure it was fast to begin with, but now it's FASTER.

You getting it now?

Actually, it's like putting a "turbo" sticker on the Viper, after dropping in some aluminum foil, because it has yet to be proven in the slightest, with user testimonials being from "negligible" to "nothing extra at all".

Until I see actual evidence, I'm going to say that no snake oil could last as long as this choke has. When did the Rem-Choke system come out, the 70's?

I also find it odd that in the entire life of the internet, nobody seems to have posted an actual scientific test of the damn things.  

[ArmasTermin]

I considered the fact that with the 590A1's heavy weight, I can just not load a full 8 rounds to cut back on weight. I mean five in the tube plus one and whatever's in the sidesaddle/stock sleeve/whatever should be plenty for home defense. Especially since I'd be accountable for every shot.

Thanks for the ammo link, uryu. Made me realize that me having a debit card now + desire to buy ammo I can actually buy means I could order online for better deals.

I'll look at the other 590 you mentioned. Can you recommend any good slugs that aren't seriously overpriced?

Also bayonets are pretty expensive. I wanted an M-9 but they're all seeming to run $70 and up. I refuse to pay more than $50 for a knife.

Also, I wonder if it would be better to order from an FFL or buy at a gun show...  

[owenmarco]

ArmasTermin

I considered the fact that with the 590A1's heavy weight, I can just not load a full 8 rounds to cut back on weight. I mean five in the tube plus one and whatever's in the sidesaddle/stock sleeve/whatever should be plenty for home defense. Especially since I'd be accountable for every shot.

Thanks for the ammo link, uryu. Made me realize that me having a debit card now + desire to buy ammo I can actually buy means I could order online for better deals.

I'll look at the other 590 you mentioned. Can you recommend any good slugs that aren't seriously overpriced?

Also bayonets are pretty expensive. I wanted an M-9 but they're all seeming to run $70 and up. I refuse to pay more than $50 for a knife.

For slugs, you're going to be stuck around $1 a round plus shipping, unless you find some phenomenal mass-sale deal, and then you'd still have to buy a lump-sum of ammo that would still likely be expensive.

There are key differences between the SPX and the A1. The SPX has the plastic trigger housing and safety button, to the best of my knowledge. And, of course, the normal barrel rather than thick-walled. The A1 is what gets sold to the military and police.

Here are the "better" deals on slugs that ATG has, at the lower-round-count level.
Federal LE Tactical Hydra-Shok
Federal Power-Shok
Nobel Sport .65 Ball "slug"
Centurion's offering
And Brenekke KO's.

EDIT:
Looking on Gunbroker for M9 bayonets... HOLY ******** s**t! It's like looking for M4 Bayonets! And they only made so many of those! They are STILL making the M9 bayonet, and considering the wide spread of the AR-15 pattern rifle, you'd think it would be cheaper! Apparently everyone has the one used to bayonet-charge Hussein, and the surface rust is from Vietnam!  

[owenmarco]

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owenmarco

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owenmarco

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Okay, you're taking this like sabots are the be-all end-all, 100% certain reason for the rifled choke's existence. That's just plain not true. Stabilizing sabots is more likely than not not its prime purpose. It's built to stabilize specially-built non-rifled slugs, and Foster slugs. The fact that it's not to be used with Brennekes makes me think it's also slightly choked.

And what DOES physics dictate? Either it spins, or it shears off a ******** of lead like rough wood on a plane. One way or another, SOMETHING happens, and I don't think it's shearing. It's soft, meaning it deforms easily. It grabs the rifling with a minimum of fuss and holds on for a spin. We're not talking ten rotations to an inch, we're talking closer to ten inches to one rotation. More likely than not if it's a 3" choke, it's got half a rotation in it. It's not a steep angle. And yeah it'll grab a sabot. Plastic deforms even easier than lead, and it's a wider shell, so it's got more pressure pushing outwards against the rifling.

So it only really works with special slugs? I still say it NOWHERE NEAR WORTH IT. Ammunition+practice>worthless choke.
Especially with that practice, I can get just as good groupings by selecting the right slug that fits my gun better, or even just the BRAND it likes. If I do my part, I could get 4" groups at 100 yards with the correct choice of slug, and maybe replacing the bead sight. And then, if I have to suddenly change ammunition, I don't have a "spreader" choke anymore, I still have plain Cylinder.
The cost is not worth the minuscule to none increase in effectiveness. Buckhammer slugs are usually $13-$15 for 5 depending on gauge and size (2 3/4 or 3), which is right up there with sabot slugs. I managed to find them on sale for $7 for 5. Foster slugs are often undersize, and squeeze down their soft lead "fins" when they aren't.
If I want maximum range and accuracy, I'll get a RIFLE. That's what they are FOR. Shotguns are designed for limited range in the first place.
Don't forget you can bugger up your threads because it tightens the choke when the slug hits it.

You really aren't seeing this, are you? Let's go over this. You find Foster slugs your gun is happy with, through a cylinder choke. Alright, you're pulling 3" groups at 100 yards. Not bad, really. Now you slap on a rifled choke. Oh look, you've just taken a proven match and added gyroscopic stability to it. Suddenly, 2" groups. It's like taking a Dodge Viper and dropping in a turbo. Sure it was fast to begin with, but now it's FASTER.

You getting it now?

Actually, it's like putting a "turbo" sticker on the Viper, after dropping in some aluminum foil, because it has yet to be proven in the slightest, with user testimonials being from "negligible" to "nothing extra at all".

Until I see actual evidence, I'm going to say that no snake oil could last as long as this choke has. When did the Rem-Choke system come out, the 70's?

I also find it odd that in the entire life of the internet, nobody seems to have posted an actual scientific test of the damn things.

Rifled chokes have been around longer than that, but NOT FOR SLUGS. They were used to widen patterns with shot, but not as radically as a fully rifled barrel. Arguably, make it minimally larger than the pattern in Cylinder or IC.

Why?
Maybe they really sucked at clays, and were only doing close-range clays.