DronzeRants... Shoot me again, I ain't dead yet.

[dronze]

Time to try my hand at a free-standing rant, since I had a realization today... The topic for this one: Parenting and society.


As some of the members here may or may not know, I, Dronze, am a smoker. This is not a fact that I am proud of, nor a habit I see myself stopping anytime soon, and while this isn't a rant about smoking, it does have a point, so just bear with me...

I am so completely and utterly sick of parents that can't seem to be bothered to dicipline or even raise their own kids. I know that not all parents are like this, but in my line of work I seem to see signs of it more and more frequently, ranging from 12 year olds that are dressed like they could be dancing at the local titty bar, to parents with toddlers that they allow to run rampant throughout my place of employment, to completely unaccompanied 13 year olds at a large, outdoor shopping center with wads of cash and a "F*ck off" attitude toward anyone who's actually trying to do their job.

Now, this brings me to the part I opened this little rant with... my nicotine habit. I stopped in at the local drugstore today to pick up a disposable lighter, as mine had decided to run out of fuel the night before, as these things tend to do. Upon getting to the cash register, the cashier, whom I've had the pleasure of dealing with enough times that she not only doesn't bother to card me, but she knows my usual brand and style of cigarette, as well. She (jokingly) asked me if I was old enough to be buying a lighter, and I looked moderately confused... appearantly the state passed a law pertaining to the minimum age you had to be to purchase a simple, utilitarian object like a disposable lighter in order, in her words, "to keep kids from playing with matches or fire".

Let's think about this one for just a moment... what kid, at an age old enough to be going into a store to buy ANYTHING for themselves, by themselves, is going to know so little about fire saftey that selling them a simple tool that can be used to have a barbecue or start a simple bonfire, that selling them this simple object is going to be a liability dangerous enough to warrant the state getting involved?

More to the point, what failure of a parent is letting their 10 year old go to the store on their own? I'm sorry, but I have 2 major issues with the scenario that would allow this to happen...

The first is that there are parents that are willfully unaware of what their preteen child is purchasing at the drugstore, this is inappropriate and completely irresponsable. Any parent who thinks that the idea of leting their 8, 9, or 10 year old child go anywhere without some degree of supervision deserves to have their child kidnapped, and then to be forced to watch the video of the rape and murder of their child as a result of their own laziness.

The second is that this problem seems to be widespread enough as to warrant state legislature to address it.

I'm sorry, but when there are parents allowing their children to go on Gaia, or any large internet forum unsupervised, well, that's an issue. When this issue streches from cyberspace to reality, it makes me want to start throwing bricks at each and every one of these selfish, stupid, and frankly, dangerous ********. Yes, that's right... Dangerous.

The parent has no control over the child, and their only influence is to let the kid know that they're on their own, and that, no matter what they do, there will be no real degree of dicipline, it tends to breed some serious social issues that will spread like homemade napalm under a garden hose. As if generation X wasn't ******** things up badly enough, we have new statistics that are pointing out that kids are now having sex as early as 10 and 11, and that these children, yes, children, sorry, but until you reach an age where you're paying your own rent and bills, your still a kid... sorry... are having their first sexual encounters at 13, on the average.

We're breeding a generation of abandoned degenerates that place the value of their fellow man at minimum wage, and the value of education at precisely zero. We drug these little bastards into submission and expect them to be adults by age 7, and we wonder at the prevelence of drug use and mental illness when we're giving little jimmy and suzie their first doses of amphetemines at age 6, their first antidepressants at age 8, and their first antipsychotics at 12. We're watching a generation of people who aren't equipped to deal with their own emotions and programmed to think of themselves as infallible and/or perfect.

Something needs to be done, and soon, or we'll be dealing with a bunch of creepy saddos that the mental health care system and the pharmeceutical companies will cause the direct and complete collapse of the world economy due to an overconentration of money. Here's my plan for combatting this cataclysm:

1. Slap an emo kid every day.
Yes, every day. Find yourself some whiney punk and fill him in on the fact that being that completely annoying is NOT a way to deal with their life. Tell them they need to come to grips with their emotions and homosexuality before I come along and personally strangle them.

2. Make someone on antidepressants cry.
And then point out that the drugs aren't really helping, are they? Life is rough, get a helmet. (only do this to someone who's taking them because they THINK they need them, I understand that there are a few people that actually do, but they tend to be the minority.)

3. Unplug your television.
The advertisements poison EVERYBODY, including those of us with enough sense to try to ignore them. If I, myself, could ignore them, well, I don't think I'd be so POed about them. Take a walk, read a book, start hobby, slap an emo kid, or make someone on antidepressants cry... you'd be amazed at the time you free up in your day by just turning off the idiot box.

4. Buy advertising space on billboards to spread the word.
Get the word out, "Live responsibly", "Pay attention to your kids", "Stop giving all your money to pushers in suits". This is a movement. Get rid of the apathy, and do something. This is a good place to start.  

[Lady Rayya]

and this is why I read the rants... they have application to the larger society.

beautifully done, and thank you.  

[LanceCalvis]

I read the rant several times. While I agree that some level of change actually needs to be done. Violence is not the answer in the least. In fact, this is the kind of act. That turns a defiant child into something worse. I've given this topic quite alot of thought over the years. And the solution I came up with. Was just a solid moral foundation to be taught to the children. You can only use so much force on a person. Before they loose a level of respect for you. Making the job of an authority figure that much more difficult.

There is also an odd problem with finding a solution. That same child you mentioned that is allowed to run around in a supermarket unsupervised. Is several times more likely to steal than one that is not supervised. And here is the kicker. Although these parents will not lift a finger to properly discipline there child. Some of these parents will even go to bat for the thief. Saying it couldn't be there child that stole while causing a big scene. This will actually reinforce the idea of anarchy in the childs mind. This is the same kind of thinking. That prevents an older brother from sending a younger sibling to there room. It is the thought that the parent is in charge and no one else. This thinking will actually cause the parent to ignore the act of the child. In order to further establish themselves as the dominate force. Only to have to deal with the same disciplinary problem further down the road.  

[Blind Hodd]

violance IS required when rearing children lance. asking and even telling a child not to do something will only get you so far. then if you follow the nonviolant method and send them to time out they don't think of it as so bad..... it never really sinks in.

in order for the child to properly understand the importance of staying in line you need to tell them what will happen and follow through. if you don't physicly disipline your child they will eventually one day turn around and use the violance you neglected to use on them right back on you!  

[LanceCalvis]

See that is the problem. If the intent is just to establish authority. Instead of teaching values. Then the result will only be a more damaged child. There is a mess of data out there. That supports what I just said here. I saw Dr. Fil saying something similar not long ago on tv.

Children will not take responsibility if they don't know you love them. He even pointed to the parent of the out of control child. And said you have to keep you under control as well. You need to be higher than the ones you are put in charge of.  

[Blind Hodd]

sopck put a book out about not physically disaplining your child and a whole generation of trekkies bought into it and when he saw how unruly that generations children becake he resinded his words and begged people to start physically disaplining their children again.

thing is you have to find a good balance between senseless abuse and coddleing pasifism. see if you don't physically disipline they think they can do anything without any real consiquence. if you do too much however they are messed up for life.... a simple spanking with an explination will suffice most occurances

here is how it should go down.... say you're in a shop.

kid: i want!
you:no
kid: i want now!
you: no, because
kid I WANT
you: stop it or you'll get a spanking
kid: tantrum ensues
you: spank the kid.

simple and it got me to behave.  

[Lady Rayya]

exactly.

there is a difference between a swat on the butt and beating a child senseless, and responsible parents should know that.

I got spanked for being bad, and it helped me learn to not be a spoiled rotten, selfish brat with delusions of granduer. I will spank my kids when they deserve it, and will still be able to show them love. Violence isn't the answer, but it sure helps the negotiation process.

there's lines even in corporal punishment. You just have to know where punishment stops and abuse begins, and too many people don;t know nowadays.  

[dronze]

LanceCalvis

If the intent is just to establish authority. Instead of teaching values.

If there is no level of authority, then how can values be taught?

The act of teaching requires some degree of authority, be it the consent of the student or an assumed authority on the part of the teacher/parent due to their own knowledge or position. Parents don't want to be parents, they refuse to take responsibility for the result of their actions. If I hold responsibility over someone else, that means that I am accountable for their actions, if that isn't enough of a reason for someone to establish a degree of real authority over the child, I don't know what is.  

[Lady Rayya]

how much of that is the fault of society for demonizing parents who DO spank their children?

My classmates' parents were so afraid of police and social workers than they never even THREATENED to smack them. This was a big mistake, becuase they could have used it back then...

not that this is an excuse for parents not taking control, but just throwing the point out there.  

[Blind Hodd]

Lady Rayya

how much of that is the fault of society for demonizing parents who DO spank their children?

My classmates' parents were so afraid of police and social workers than they never even THREATENED to smack them. This was a big mistake, becuase they could have used it back then...

not that this is an excuse for parents not taking control, but just throwing the point out there.

see the sexual harassment sue storm south park episode.  

[Blind Hodd]

ps number 1000  

[LanceCalvis]

Seems the most valid point I made was a quote from Dr. Phil. The point I made about parents having to keep themselves under control, not just the child. This was the only point I made that wasn't really questioned. I find it odd that so many points of what I said were shot down. Because I'm not taking this information from a book. Or using some second hand information from some other person. Everything I said is from first hand observation and has been well thought out.

Quote:

violance IS required when rearing children lance.

Violence is not required to properly get your point across. It is an easy fix that will become less effective the more you use it. The example Dronze gave is an except to the rule. From my research which is mostly data I collected. From watching my younger sisters behavior from age 1 to 14. A situation where the child is that out of control seldom happens. In fact, a tantrum like that. Would only happen when the child hadn't received any discipline for an extended period of time. Only an unintelligent person needs to use violence to achieve a resolution. And they will seldom get the result that was intended.

I was raised in a pretty fair manner. I understand that the methods used were mostly fair. If I acted out I would either be sent to my room. Made to sit on a chair for a set time. Spanking was used on me as well. And to this day I don't resent it. But here is the thing and this is where the parents using excessive force comes into play. Sometimes I would just need to be left alone to gather my thoughts. And instead my mom or dad would follow me around the house. This method is absolutely the worst idea ever. A child will only do this when they feel overwhelmed. And by following that child through the house yelling. You are actually loosing a large amount of your control. By not keeping control over yourself. I know this is a popular method. Because I've heard stories of my aunt driving my cousin crazy. By following them throughout the house. And in all cases the parent and child will become increasingly hostile the longer this goes on.  

[Master Clockfish]

When I was in a public place and I was acting up, my dad would always pull me aside and threaten to spank me in public. It wasn't the threat of spanking that got me to stop whining, but the fear of everyone seeing my bare a**.

I'm never having kids, but if I do, I will not hesitate to hit them. My parents would often slap me across the face when I deserved it.  

[Blind Hodd]

LanceCalvis

Seems the most valid point I made was a quote from Dr. Phil. The point I made about parents having to keep themselves under control, not just the child. This was the only point I made that wasn't really questioned. I find it odd that so many points of what I said were shot down. Because I'm not taking this information from a book. Or using some second hand information from some other person. Everything I said is from first hand observation and has been well thought out.

Quote:

violance IS required when rearing children lance.

Violence is not required to properly get your point across. It is an easy fix that will become less effective the more you use it. The example Dronze gave is an except to the rule. From my research which is mostly data I collected. From watching my younger sisters behavior from age 1 to 14. A situation where the child is that out of control seldom happens. In fact, a tantrum like that. Would only happen when the child hadn't received any discipline for an extended period of time. Only an unintelligent person needs to use violence to achieve a resolution. And they will seldom get the result that was intended.

I was raised in a pretty fair manner. I understand that the methods used were mostly fair. If I acted out I would either be sent to my room. Made to sit on a chair for a set time. Spanking was used on me as well. And to this day I don't resent it. But here is the thing and this is where the parents using excessive force comes into play. Sometimes I would just need to be left alone to gather my thoughts. And instead my mom or dad would follow me around the house. This method is absolutely the worst idea ever. A child will only do this when they feel overwhelmed. And by following that child through the house yelling. You are actually loosing a large amount of your control. By not keeping control over yourself. I know this is a popular method. Because I've heard stories of my aunt driving my cousin crazy. By following them throughout the house. And in all cases the parent and child will become increasingly hostile the longer this goes on.

even though dr. phil is a hack i will say this, and left it alone because i contitionally agree, you do need to keep yourself under control. my idea of this is the line between corporal punishment and physical abuse.

ok your parents don't have to use much corp. punishment and it works....fine. but that isn't the case in all households. i've seen parents pleading with their kids to stop being destructive when if they had spanked the kid it would have been done. NO TWO CHILDREN WILL REACT THE SAME WAY TO THE SAME STYLE OF REARING! find what works! my dad spanked me when i deserved it and i turned out great. my friends father took a let the kid raise it's self approach. he would tell him why what he was doing wasn't a good idea and let him figure it out the hard way. he also spanked him when he deserved it. to this day he is one of the most well adjusted and brightest people i know.  

[OakbingNoona]

.... yawnz... hm interesting rant dronze... and i can say i could agree on most of them... the rest idk cause it just slurred through my eyes... my laptop's monitor is small so i cant see too well XD