Diffrent kinda muslims

[Geek Zombie]

Maha the Wizard

Too build a bit on the history between Shia and Sunni:

First of let’s look at the history:

The event that began the split of sects is first mentioned in what is referred to as the Hadith of Ghadir Khumm. During a speech to those returning from the Hajj to Mecca, Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) turned to Ali (رضّى الله عنه), one of his disciples and stated the following:

Quote:

“For whoever I am his [mawla], ‘Ali is his [mawla].”

- the Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم)

The debate that split the Sunni and Shia is, amazingly, based off the one word ‘mawla’ (which can mean friend or master among other things).

And differences in practices:

Sunnis follow the Rashidun (rightly-guided caliphs), who were the first four caliphs who ruled after the death of Muhammad (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman Ibn Affan, and Ali).

Shias discount the legitimacy of the first three caliphs and believe that Ali is the second-most divinely inspired man (after Muhammad) and that he and his descendants by Muhammad's daughter Fatimah, the Imamah (Shia imams) are the sole legitimate Islamic leaders.

Shia permit mutah (Mota’a) - fixed-term temporary marriage - which is not acceptable within the Sunni community. Sunnis do not allow it due to the Prophet's (صلّى الله عليه) ban of it, but according to Shia it was banned by Umar. There are many other differences including holidays and politics but I won’t get into it all here.

Source: My Islam FAQ

thanks bro for the info...


but i am unable to see the Arabic..!!

i need to install the language sad  

[Geek Zombie]

dark__sunshin

tassan

dark__sunshin

tassan

Zaaki

I add that post to the award list! Gratz biggrin

stare

confused wutcha staring for?!

well he had sad me the same at other place but he didn't put me on the award list stare

hehe!! really?? where is that list anyway?!

go to chatter box in the bottom "AWARD list" or something like award  

[Maha the Wizard]

tassan

Maha the Wizard

Too build a bit on the history between Shia and Sunni:

First of let’s look at the history:

The event that began the split of sects is first mentioned in what is referred to as the Hadith of Ghadir Khumm. During a speech to those returning from the Hajj to Mecca, Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) turned to Ali (رضّى الله عنه), one of his disciples and stated the following:

Quote:

“For whoever I am his [mawla], ‘Ali is his [mawla].”

- the Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم)

The debate that split the Sunni and Shia is, amazingly, based off the one word ‘mawla’ (which can mean friend or master among other things).

And differences in practices:

Sunnis follow the Rashidun (rightly-guided caliphs), who were the first four caliphs who ruled after the death of Muhammad (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman Ibn Affan, and Ali).

Shias discount the legitimacy of the first three caliphs and believe that Ali is the second-most divinely inspired man (after Muhammad) and that he and his descendants by Muhammad's daughter Fatimah, the Imamah (Shia imams) are the sole legitimate Islamic leaders.

Shia permit mutah (Mota’a) - fixed-term temporary marriage - which is not acceptable within the Sunni community. Sunnis do not allow it due to the Prophet's (صلّى الله عليه) ban of it, but according to Shia it was banned by Umar. There are many other differences including holidays and politics but I won’t get into it all here.

Source: My Islam FAQ

thanks bro for the info...


but i am unable to see the Arabic..!!

i need to install the language sad

Yeah it helps, you can try freelang or sourceforge or just google it.  

[Geek Zombie]

Maha the Wizard

Yeah it helps, you can try freelang or sourceforge or just google it.

thanks ^_^

hope so they work  

[Thou Exalted]

Glad things cooled down as I read the last page... Although Zaaki you do need to watch your mouth, I don't think you would like it if we disrespected you and called your sect names either... Anyway I'm not here to start anything just to say we are indeed all muslims, There are Good Shia's and Bad Shia's, Good Sunni's and Bad Sunni's (Amazing isn't it Zaaki?). I've already given the story of why Shia's "Hurt" themselves and what not. Where ever you got the idea that Shia's "Kill or Hit Babies" is either False or just a Bad Shia, Simple as that.  

[Geek Zombie]

Haydar the Truthful

Glad things cooled down as I read the last page... Although Zaaki you do need to watch your mouth, I don't think you would like it if we disrespected you and called your sect names either... Anyway I'm not here to start anything just to say we are indeed all muslims, There are Good Shia's and Bad Shia's, Good Sunni's and Bad Sunni's (Amazing isn't it Zaaki?). I've already given the story of why Shia's "Hurt" themselves and what not. Where ever you got the idea that Shia's "Kill or Hit Babies" is either False or just a Bad Shia, Simple as that.

3nodding


but i dun understand..!!

then most of the amount in shia is BAD SHIA??

because i live in Pakistan and 80% of shia i have seen heart themselves!!  

[Thou Exalted]

tassan

Haydar the Truthful

Glad things cooled down as I read the last page... Although Zaaki you do need to watch your mouth, I don't think you would like it if we disrespected you and called your sect names either... Anyway I'm not here to start anything just to say we are indeed all muslims, There are Good Shia's and Bad Shia's, Good Sunni's and Bad Sunni's (Amazing isn't it Zaaki?). I've already given the story of why Shia's "Hurt" themselves and what not. Where ever you got the idea that Shia's "Kill or Hit Babies" is either False or just a Bad Shia, Simple as that.

3nodding


but i dun understand..!!

then most of the amount in shia is BAD SHIA??

because i live in Pakistan and 80% of shia i have seen heart themselves!!

Well, Do you truly think 99% of the world is Pious? Think about it for a second, Since Adam's Creation (PBUH) and the prophets down to our Prophet (SAW), There has ALWAYS been more Impious evil persons than true Noble Pious Believers of Allah. So don't be so quick to judge JUST the Shia, Take a look at Sunni's, other sects of Islam, Christianity, Satanists, Buddists, Etc.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Doesn't matter. Ayatolas [I'm misspelling it on purpose. How can some random guy be a "sign of God"?] endorse the act of self-flagellation.  

[kasimir-b]

I'm gonna say this because i can:

everyone who was just arguing the validity, and righteousness of one sect over another, is a f***ing idiot. get over the f***ing fact that there are two diferent sects. his is we get people killed, by trying to make differences when there really are none.

i used to think that the new generation would be immune to this archaic old world tradition of hating a group because they are not the same type of muslim. i guess not. thanks for blowing my dream.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

kasimir-b

I'm gonna say this because i can:

everyone who was just arguing the validity, and righteousness of one sect over another, is a f***ing idiot. get over the f***ing fact that there are two diferent sects. his is we get people killed, by trying to make differences when there really are none.

i used to think that the new generation would be immune to this archaic old world tradition of hating a group because they are not the same type of muslim. i guess not. thanks for blowing my dream.

Hmm... so are you saying that all sects are equal?

Muhammad [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] said, "Those who came before you of the people of the Book split into seventy-two sects, and this ummah will split into seventy-three: seventy-two in Hell and one in Paradise, and that is the jamaa’ah (main body of Muslims).”

Narrated by Abu Dawood (4597) and others; classed as saheeh by al-Haakim.  

[kasimir-b]

infact, yes, i am.

while you may have a nice hadith to support your argument, Allah (swt) never gave the prophet any instructions on how the religion was to be run after his death(ie, people/establishments that unilaterally help us muslims determine what is true belief, and what is lies).

as much as i believe that nitty gritty things about shii'as are weird, and frankly, inane, i do not believe that it is our (human, people, more specifically, muslims) duty, responibility, or place to say whether or not they are in fact muslims.

if you can bash on sunnis, then that means that the diferents schools of thought are up for attack.

(Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali, wahabi). they all interpret the meaning of islam diferently.

therefore, i declare that anyone who follows any of these schools of thought is not a muslim.


(please note the dramatic sarcasm in that line)

to my understanding, shiias do not have a diferent qur'an. they still pray to same place. they all say the same shahada, they all fast the same 30 days, they all make the same pilgramage, they all make the same zakat.

so tell me, knowing this (or rebuke it if you must), how are they not muslims? if all sects are not equal, then none of are muslims, and we are all going to hell.  

[kasimir-b]

oh, and there is a clear line in what the hadiths are, and are not.

they are not the word of god. they are not even directly the words of the Prophet (PBUH). they are stories about the prophets interpretation about the word of god, as told by observers of the prophet (pbuh).

i just thought i would make that point.  

[Thou Exalted]

Nice Job Kasimir! that was the point I was trying to make before, but I couldn't find the right word for it. It doesn't matter what sect your in, since they all preach Islam in a different way.

I also found out the whole "Shia's have a different Qur'an" thing is a rumor spread by sunni's, as I have read the Qur'an myself, and have seen the one in my home and another just to make sure.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Assalamu Alaikum,
The difference in opinion among Hanafis, Hanbalis, Malikis, and Shafis is nothing like the different between Shi'ism and Sunni Islam.
The difference among Madhabs is only Fiqhi difference - all four Madhabs follow the exact same path and aqeedah/ideology. It's like walking on the same path, but walking in a different way.

However, the aqeedah of Sh'ias is different because of the concept of Imamah. This is something that has no basis in the Qur'an, and includes beliefs which constitute Kufr [note, there is a difference between committing kufr and being a kafir]. These beliefs include the superiority of the Imams over the Prophets and angels, the belief that the Imams can choose their time of death [a privilege left only for Prophets], and the general fact that they broke off from the main body of Muslims [i.e. the Jama'ah]. School of thought is different from sect.

Brother kasimir-b, if your opinion outweighs the words of Muhammad [sallallahu alayhi wasallam], then please check yourself. The Hadith do not contain any flaw in them, because they came from a man who was the best of creation.

Another similar Hadith states,
"Verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one." The companions asked,'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "They are those who will upon the path me and my companions."

Now the Shi'as reject many of the companions, especially the best of them, Abu Bakr and Umar [radiallahu anhumaa].

Also, note that in the other Hadith, it says that the right sect is the main group of Muslims. The Shi'as deviated from this main group over a political matter [hence the name "Shi'a, which means "sect"]. Also, Shi'as are at most 10% of the Muslim Ummah whilst Sunnis are over 80%. One is clearly the "main group" while the other isn't.
Hanafis, Malikis, Hanbalis, and Shafis are all considered Sunni. They don't count as sects, because all four Madhabs are valid but they look at certain things a different way, that's all.

However, I believe I have shown you through the Ahadith that there is indeed only one sect that is upon the correct Aqeedah, and Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah [Sunnis] clearly fit the description.  

[kasimir-b]

unfortunately, i dont have time right now to respond to the entire post, so i will post to the part i find most important the bolded part):

i dont find my opinion more important than that of the prophet. however, the hadiths (in my oppinion), while they must revered for they are said to be the words of the Prophet (pbuh), but they can not supercede those of the quran.

that was the main point of my argument.

however, because the hadiths are stories of the prophet, (and more specifically things he said), and they were not relayed for the angel Jibril from Allah (swt) to the prophet, and more importantly, when the hadiths were being collected from the many people who were lucky enough to encounter the Prophet, they were told by ordinary people. theres only so much that can remain intact interms of remembering the words of the prophet verbatim. therein lies the possibility for differences, and inconsistencies. it is because of this that they can not be viewed with the assumption that they are as perfect as the quran itself

and in terms of rejecting the companions, i would have to do some more research in order to respond to that, but my uneducated answer/response politics have little to do with beliefs. to me thats the same as a wahabi telling me that i'm going straight to hell because generally shave, or keep an unkempt beard, dont beat my significant other, preach total domination of religion over life, while at the same time selling opium to pay for bills. (i am refering to the taliban)

also, another note to that, this is pure opinion, if they do not reject the prophet (pbuh) and his distinction of the last of the prophets, then why would they not be muslims?

no offense, arabs have always been known to cause divisions among themselves for petty reasons (case in point, a superiority complex which i have noticed among most saudis) not saying anyone else is any better, but that still has kept in mind when determining the cause of this political debate.

oh yeah, politics is NOT the same thing as religion. hence the reason that religion should not dictate politics. some influence is gonna happen through religious morals. but that does not mean that relgion is in control of politics. people are stupid. and politics is the art of convincing people stupid, ergo, politics are stupid. futher extension, to dismiss a group for the stupidity of people and politics makes the person who dismisses them even worse than what that group is said to be. laymans terms, that person needs to check them self.

when i have more time, i will repond more completely on this debate.

*DISCLAIMER* these are my opinions, if you dont like them, oh well, this is how i think. please come up with logical reasons, and unbiased research if you want me to change them.

[ Absolut Terror ]

Assalamu Alaikum,
The difference in opinion among Hanafis, Hanbalis, Malikis, and Shafis is nothing like the different between Shi'ism and Sunni Islam.
The difference among Madhabs is only Fiqhi difference - all four Madhabs follow the exact same path and aqeedah/ideology. It's like walking on the same path, but walking in a different way.

However, the aqeedah of Sh'ias is different because of the concept of Imamah. This is something that has no basis in the Qur'an, and includes beliefs which constitute Kufr [note, there is a difference between committing kufr and being a kafir]. These beliefs include the superiority of the Imams over the Prophets and angels, the belief that the Imams can choose their time of death [a privilege left only for Prophets], and the general fact that they broke off from the main body of Muslims [i.e. the Jama'ah]. School of thought is different from sect.

Brother kasimir-b, if your opinion outweighs the words of Muhammad [sallallahu alayhi wasallam], then please check yourself. The Hadith do not contain any flaw in them, because they came from a man who was the best of creation.

Another similar Hadith states,
"Verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one." The companions asked,'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "They are those who will upon the path me and my companions."

Now the Shi'as reject many of the companions, especially the best of them, Abu Bakr and Umar [radiallahu anhumaa].

Also, note that in the other Hadith, it says that the right sect is the main group of Muslims. The Shi'as deviated from this main group over a political matter [hence the name "Shi'a, which means "sect"]. Also, Shi'as are at most 10% of the Muslim Ummah whilst Sunnis are over 80%. One is clearly the "main group" while the other isn't.
Hanafis, Malikis, Hanbalis, and Shafis are all considered Sunni. They don't count as sects, because all four Madhabs are valid but they look at certain things a different way, that's all.

However, I believe I have shown you through the Ahadith that there is indeed only one sect that is upon the correct Aqeedah, and Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah [Sunnis] clearly fit the description.