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Interesting take phoenixia, however, I must say I liked your other posts better in defending Islam with the proper Quranic quotes.


AIDs is not homosexual-specific disease. In fact, it occurs in many heterosexual couples in Africa, in the USA, and around the world. A virus does not care for a particular sexual orientation. The fact that it is more widespread around gays is the lack of protection.

Excuse me, selfish desires? Seriously? I'm not gay because I enjoy it. I didn't wake up one day and say "hey, I like guys more than girls."
And why should Allah look more favorably? The gay couple adopting are helping children out just as much as the next heterosexual couple. There are far too many children in this world that need the love and care of a loving couple, regardless of their sexual orientation.

And the concept of gays breeding more gays? Are you serious? what kind of mindset are you in? The 1700s? the 50s?
There are some people, as previously stated, that honestly do make the conscious choice to be gay, often due to trauma. Most people do not do this however. I've been hanging around my straight friends and they do not "turn gay" nor did i "turn gay" from seeing gay people. In fact, the only time i really meet any homosexuals is when I go to the support group.

and with the strict "stay with your own gender" concept in Islam, i'm surprised there aren't more homosexuals out there, jeeze. Same sex marriages are slowly being allowed in the USA and are already in effect in Europe or at least certain countries. It's not a matter if if same sex marriages are allowed, it's more of when it will be universally accepted.

I can no more like guys than you like guys. It's my nature. It's your nature. The day that you can consciously get yourself to stop being interested in a man for marriage partner is the day that I'll admit that being homosexual is a choice. And the only reasoning I'd accept about how homosexuality comes about is from a geneticist, a psychologist, neurologist, or somewhere along that line.

Phoenixia, I do like your post. I don't agree with most of your logic, for reasons that Achmed and Ratri have pointed out, but it was a well thought-out post.

I especially like this bit:


Because you managed to explain that, even if Allah/God does have issues with homosexual people, it's not a human's place to judge another. You expressed that there should be no hatred, and that we should all be understanding of each other. A view that should be shared much more often. Thank you.

But, appreciation for your attitude toward this aside, I still have to say that I don't agree with you. And, though Ratri and Achmed have already done it, I feel the need to bring up some counterpoints.

1. Infertile couples and old couples cannot procreate. So, if this is such a major reason to not allow same-sex marriages, should infertile and old couples be about to marry? And, as Ratri said, we are not in danger of extinction. We're far from it. Also, another thing that Ratri said, many people are taught that sex is for someone you love. Not just for making children, but as an act to get closer to someone.

2. I'm sorry, but I do have to say that gay people are not selfish for wanting to adopt children. Many kids needs homes with loving families, and sexual orientation has been proven to not be an issue in how parents raise their children. Here is one example of this. Children of gay parents are just as likely to be happy, healthy and successful as the children of straight parents.

My boyfriend and I are both perfectly capable of having our own children, but I'm planning on adopting instead. If anything, having the ability and neglecting it should make me selfish. People who don't have the ability and want to adopt children aren't being selfish at all. They're just working with what they can.

Not that I think anyone could call me selfish for wanting to adopt, anyway. There was one person who told me that adopting was bad and that I should have my own, but his logic behind this was dated. I have the conversation, if you'd like to see it:

[13:59] Valerie: Mm, I 'unno. I'm againjst abortion for the most part, but there are also instances that I'm not sure about. Whiiiich is why I'll just get all of my stuff taken out before ever having sex. No stuff = no babies = no hard decisions. Yay.
[13:59] Valerie: *against
[13:59] Kyen: ..
[13:59] Valerie: Sorry, still kinda sleepy.
[13:59] Kyen: But that's bad.
[13:59] Valerie: Eh, depends on your idea of bad.
[13:59] Kyen: Because then you don't have children.
[14:00] Valerie: I could always adopt.
[14:00] Kyen: And not having children is bad.
[14:00] Kyen: But then they'd always hate you for not being their real parent then when they turn 16 go out with their drug-addict friends and get high and commit suicide.
[14:00] Valerie: No. I've known adopted kids. They're not like that. S'a stereotype.
[14:01] Kyen: Still.
[14:01] Kyen: Just don't.
[14:01] Kyen: JUST SAY NO.
[14:01] Valerie: There's another flaw to your logic though.
[14:01] Valerie: Not having kids is BAD.
[14:01] Valerie: But by not having sex, I've been not-having-kids for years.
[14:01] Valerie: So abstinence?
[14:01] Kyen: You know what I mean, Val.
[14:01] Kyen: Not having kids your entire life is bad.
[14:02] Valerie: What about people who remain virgins their whole lives? Nuns and preists do that.
[14:02] Valerie: ...Mary aside.
[14:02] Kyen: g2g

If you notice, the moment his argument was made invalid, he left. And why? Because there is no good reason to ever say that adopting children instead of having them yourself is bad. Gay, straight, bisexual, whatever.

3. AIDS is mostly found in gay men. Says so right here. But, if you read, it is also brought about in other ways (which Ratri and Achmed have already mentioned). And, technically, since it's gay men that it's prevalent in, this argument does not work for women in lesbian-relationships. If I wanted to go have sex with a girl right now, I would have no more risk (or possibly less risk) than if I had sex with a boy. And so, this point cannot be applied to all gay people, which means that gay sex is not damaging to your health. At least not any moreso than straight sex.

4. As Ratri said, there are very many scientific theories as to where AIDS originated. It certainly is not only applicable to the gay community, because people who do not take part in same-sex relations can get it.

5. I do believe that the last two responses answer this. Since AIDS is not a strictly homosexual disease and was most likely not created by homosexual interaction, there's no harming your partner. Especially if you're a lesbian, because it seems to have more to do with men.

6. People shouldn't be codependent, no matter their orientation. As Ratri said (wow, I'm saying that a lot, sorry Ratri XD), that's when you leave the relationship. Being gay is not a choice, it's a preference. Can you make yourself like broccoli? No. If you don't like it, you simply don't like it. Maybe you prefer cauliflower. You can't help that, and neither is really better or worse than the other. And yes, you can make yourself eat broccoli, even if you don't like it, but why should you have to when you've got cauliflower as a perfectly fine alternative? (And yes, I did just compare people to food. I realize it's not the most ethical comparison, but it gets the point across.)

7. Men and women have traditional roles, but not everyone is traditional. My family certainly wasn't, but I turned out okay. I'm not like, a criminal or anything. You don't need a "man" and a "woman." You just need one or two people who are willing to raise and provide for a child. It doesn't matter which person does which thing, or even if just one person does it all (as is the case in single-parent households). So I don't consider this a good argument.

8. Darling, you can't create more gays. Since it isn't a choice to begin with, how are people going to just magically switch over? Does that mean all of the cauliflower eaters will start liking broccoli more just because it's been made as available as cauliflower? No, of course not. They'll still prefer the cauliflower.

I'm sorry if I seemed too critical. I really did enjoy reading your post, I just didn't agree with it and wanted to throw in my opinions and the facts I had.

Thank you. Actually if you get to know my posting style you will find out that I first post general statements and then if asked to or forced to support my opinion I turn to the Qur'an. The reason being 1) That most of my posts are very long as I can't seem to stop typing 2) That I always find that I run out of time (I have four siblings and one computer and parents wont let me stay one for very long periods of time crying ) 3) That I have to go find the quotes as I don't know where most of them are in the Qur'an (I do the research after a while though), and 4) (most lamest excuse) is because I sometimes get lazy and just don't feel like thinking.

But, I find that it works better this way for me, because when I post a general statement people break it into bits and refute it and then I know which verses to precisely turn to if needed.




I know. Did I accidentally mention that I thought it was homosexual specific? redface But, even those "so-called" facts are questionable as doctors are not sure about the origin of AIDs. But it is a fact that AIDs started with gay men having sex.

"The first recognised cases of AIDS occurred in the USA in the early 1980s (more about this period can be found on our history page). A number of gay men in New York and California suddenly began to develop rare opportunistic infections and cancers that seemed stubbornly resistant to any treatment. At this time, AIDS did not yet have a name, but it quickly became obvious that all the men were suffering from a common syndrome. " (source)

Now I'm no scientist but I can think up some theories as to why heterosexual couples (especially in Africa) are getting AIDs.
1) That one of the pair was a homosexual in the past
2) That one of the pair used to get "high" by using shared needles
3) That after a tribal feud the poor would go through the remains of the destroyed tribes and indirectly come in contact with AIDs (for example blood to blood contact or using a utensil without washing it after the raid)
4) The using of shared resources. Africa is a poor country and can you blame the African's, who may be starving to death, and find food and share it amongst each other. For example if they found water the pitcher would be shared (and not only in the family). Thus they would be some-what sharing saliva.
5) In the case of the west or other countries that are not poor: it could be because friends unknowingly shared their drinks or food with other friends and thus get infected. Meaning one friend could have "experimented" in the past and not have told the other friend. I sometimes share foods/drinks.........I'm going to change the practice now (sheesh I'm freaking myself out)
6) That one of their past relatives did one of the above mentioned or something else. Thus the heterozygous/homozygous gene pair would be passed on to future generations.

As I already have stated they are just theories. I am not mentioning them as facts that you "must" agree to. The fact is that scientists still need to do more research on AIDs/HIV. Another fact is that families who are strictly anti-gay and use clean procedures in their daily life do not develop AIDs.



I did not call the act of liking a same sex person selfish. You can like whoever you want and it won't matter to me. What I called selfish is if

1) That even if your homosexual partner agrees to have sex with you......you both having sex will still be selfish as you will not be caring about the safety of the other person that you love. Even if you use protection there is still a chance.......and don't tell me there isn't. How many females have gotten pregnant even after using condoms, etc.? And I am not narrowing these selfish acts down only to homosexual partners. There are many selfish acts involving sex that heterosexual couples do to. For example, if the female is so weak that if she gets pregnant and gives birth she will probably die and maybe the child in the process too, and the couple knows this fact, but they "love" each other so much that they must try, and so she conforms.

2) And I called the act of adopting selfish as well. But, now that I rethink it it wouldn't be selfish........it would just be desire. So I apologize for that.



I agree to your last sentence.

I explained the reason Allah looks more favorably upon heterosexual couples in my original post. I will explain it again in different words. Heterosexual couples can have children through natural process's so if they were to adopt that would a more heavier burden on them. But, this heavier burden would be taken on by them in the view of helping humanity and thus gaining Allah's pleasure.
Homosexual couples cannot make children through natural processes so if they were to adopt they would not have a heavier burden. You will probably state that if homosexual couples adopted an equivalent number to the children a homosexual couple have+adopt it would be an equal burden. But, if you look deeper this is not the case. The heavier burden would still be on the heterosexual parents. The reason for this is because they will have to work harder to treat the children they adopt similarly or equally to how they treat the children that they give birth to.

This can be compared to a statement (I think) the Holy Prophet (saw) made about a different topic. Namely monetary sacrifices. He said that someone who is wealthy and spends a little of his wealth as charity (even if the sum is very large) is not equal to a person who is poor who spends a lot of his wealth on charity (even if the sum is small (for example if the person only has his own shoes to spare)). In this case the poor person will receive more blessings and will be exalted in the sight of Allah. The reason being the poor person took a larger burden on himself compared to the wealthy person who may not have taken any burden at all.



I like to think my mindset is in the 21st century. (rolls her eyes).
Ah I see what you mean. (and at this point I will say something randomly: Ah I love Gaia it increases my knowledge of things so much!)

I understand what you are saying.....but I'm still stuck somewhat. So I am going to post something and if you can satisfy me with a good response I'll take my statements about this issue back. Are your friends okay with gayness to its fullest? Meaning.........if their children turned out to be gay would they go berserk or no? If yes they would go berserk (even if their statements are "no we are fine with it") then those people will not easily become gay on a whim.

So I'm going to say that those people who think and truly feel in the depths of their heart that if their children turned out to be gay and they wouldn't even get angry after they found out........those people could be tempted to become gay.

When I posted that part I was thinking along some lines. I was thinking that in the Qur'an Allah did not state that some people of Lot were gay but that a majority (or a large population) of the community practiced and was not against homosexuality. So I was thinking that the whole community's eventual acceptance was probably caused by a few homosexual couples appearing in their midst. The few were probably disliked as they are now.....and then acceptance began to increase and at the same time homosexuality. And then Allah sent His messenger to them.

So since I was thinking along those lines and not "hey these are my beliefs and I stick to them" I think I can justify my statement that I "I like to think my mindset is in the 21st century".



(sighs) And this is when I forget that you have posted many intelligent comments in the past.

It's self explanatory.

If you think of western countries are "ideal" countries to follow that is your opinion. In my mind a country with a perfect understanding of Islamic Shariah (which does not exist currently) is the "ideal" country. But, right now it is evident that so-called Islamic countries are "backwards" as their is no tolerance and freedom. My "ideal" country as of right now is Canada even though I don't agree with all the policies.

If you had a full understanding of Islam you would not have even posted this bit. The Islam you are talking about is (makes reference to teachings of Qur'an)
1) the one that was in the forefront of giving females and other person their rights (which are still more rights then the west gives its people and females)
2) The one that makes charity mandatory
3) The one that makes service to humanity mandatory
4) The one that fobids interest,
5) The one with the most beautiful and restrictive teachings about war, etc.

The only reason you think Islam should change is because of the homosexuality thing. If things worked like that then Islam would not even be recognizable in the future as people would keep tweaking things they didn't like off. The thing is Islam was not created so that people continued to remain Muslim only because they "liked" all the points in the Qur'an because they went with their own understanding, but because Allah could set limits on mankind and test them.

Back to what you were saying now. The west you are talking about is the same west that has legalized common law marriages, that makes millions poor because of its policies of interest, that does not have an equal distribution of wealth, that will not hesitate to step on the rights of others but will justify it through diplomacy, where divorce is rampant, where cheating on a partner is rampant, where care for elderly is dropping, where children are neglected because most parents are working the majority of the time, where illegitimate children are increasing, where depression is increasing (especially in female population), where obesity is increasing, etc.

This doesn't sound like an ideal society to me at all. Even if it allows homosexuality.



If you beleive in Islam then you are in for a very LARGE disappointment. What you just mentioned will never happen.

It has been prophesied that the power of Islam will increase. Then their will be king's in Islam too. And then Islam will decrease. (Note: Islam does not mean the number of people who call themselves Muslim....but submitting to the will of Allah (aka following the rules and guidelines in the Qur'an)).

Guess what? Islam has already decreased in the world. The large majority of the population call themselves Muslim but actually do not follow Islam. So if Islam is in a decreased stage right now and homosexuality is not allowed even now then it will never be allowed.

After this the prophecy states that when Islam will decrease the Messiah will be raised, and he will guide everyone back to the true Islam, and the world will eventually converted. Thus, Islam will be victorious.....and then the Day of Judgment will occur.

So if you are Muslim and you believe in this prophecy and in the Qur'an then their is no chance that Islam will kneel to the wants of homosexuals.

I being an Ahmadhi already believe that this Messiah has come.....and that the end of days is fast approaching (not that fast though that I will see it in this life). Our Messiah has already raised a community of followers that are dedicated to the true Islam......and soon as promised by Allah Islam will spread throughout the earth.



Who said I like guys? I'm sorry but I find guys to be very *coughs* immature......and unfortunately I will have to marry one one day crying
Guys make everything unpredictable and you cannot decide the future solely for yourself after marriage. I have many dreams I want to follow but its disappointing that in the future when I am married I will have to consult my husband as to if I can fulfill my dreams. If it weren't for Islamic Shariah I would probably not want to marry at all........

Yes their are the mature guys too and the guys that are fun to hang out with but the majority are just........................

Jibril! I also have dreams stare One day the boss of the coca cola company tells me that i am gonna own it, and some years after i am president of the whole world! And everyone is happy and everyone is muslim...

But that dream proberly not gonna happend, but that dossen't mean i cry!

Life ain't fair, and if Allah created you diffrent, then don't get sad about that! Then you just have to live in that way!

Think about the blind people, ore the slaves, i think there is many people who have it harder than you!

And Allah did make it a rule to get married! Allah diden't make it rule to marry by your pleasure! Soo there is nothing else you can do, than cry about it. Ore go against Islam, and marry a guy. Ore you can go with Islam, and marry a woman, and get the love from Allah!

First of all, I would like to apologize for the really slow replies. I’m a busy person unfortunately even when I’m taking a year off from school.

Note: Everything that I deleted and didn't respond to was because I debated it before (I don't like being repetitive) or because I get your point.



Oh.........so its not a belief of all Christians that the only way to achieve salvation is through accepting the sacrifice that Christ made for us?

-Never heard that one before-

Do you have a source you can provide me with I would like to read up on it. Thank you.



haha lol I love your line of thought.......and I'm not making fun of you either. But after I just read what I wrote and then your response something seemed very amusing. I didn't even consider that someone would respond like that X___x

To love Allah is to love the commandments he made for us and to abide by them. To love Allah is to throw your self away (meaning your desires away) and do everything only for the sake of Allah. If a Muslim can do this then that Muslim has a right to call him/herself a true Muslim (aka one who obedient to the will of God and submits.....and one that is peaceful). A true Muslim is one who, even if the world hates him/her and persecutes him/her will continue to live and strive and propagate the message of Islam and will find solace only in Allah. This is how the Prophets were, and Prophets are the ones Muslims are to follow the examples of.

It is a rule of Islam (aka God) that one should marry and procreate.



In worldly affairs gays are equal to straights. And this is how society should work....even an Islamic society. Meaning gays should be given all the rights that straights are given even if one is not following Islamic law.

In spirituality or in the next life they are not equal though. Allah has made rules and those who do not follow His rules may receive His wrath......but His Mercy is more then His anger. Though in this case I must explain to you the Islamic concept of heaven and hell.

Hell: Hell is only temporary. One who is sent to hell is sent only so that that person may reform him/herself and then that person will go to heaven. Hell is not literal fires burning a person in the after life. Hell is when a disbeliever finds out that he/she was wrong and realizes that Allah is disappointed and angry with them. It is a burning that will occur within a persons soul (heart). This is the worst type of burning one can face. It is like when a child does something bad and gets yelled at and then becomes very very sad and thinks that his/her parents hate him/her and will never forgive him/her.

Heaven: Heaven actually has seven stages. They are divided by how religious a person was in his/her former life. It is said that the only person who is on the seventh level of heaven is the Holy Prophet (saw) because he was the most perfect of men and believers (most perfect Muslim).

I am not one to judge where a homosexual would be in this whole chain......that decision is up to Allah alone.



Interesting. lol don't worry I'm not worried that Islam will go into extinction.

A big problem with today's education system is that it keeps changing......so I don't agree with your line of thought. I guess its based somewhat on personal experience as well. I personally think that people fall in love with each other not because of sex but because of personalities. I personally think that the ultimate form of love to a partner is willingness to sacrifice things that you want in order to meet your partners needs. Meaning, sometimes, putting your partners needs in front of yours own.



I already apologized to Achmed for this bit. I apologize separately to you. Sorry.

I was wrong......and I don't even remember why I posted this bit? I shouldn't have.



There probably are gays who are totally clean. But, that doesn't mean that condoms are 100% effective. There are females who use condoms/birth control during sex and still end up getting pregnant.



Thanks for sharing. I didn't know that.



My point: People should have sex after they are married with someone they love and trust. Not someone they just want to have sex with. Which is the case in the west now. I mean there's TOO many people in the west that you cannot at all trust with your life, and that's sad. And if you love someone truly but you have done something in the past......then before you even have thoughts of having sex 1) get tests done 2) talk to your partner about past events 3) If the test shows positive for something harmful then don't have sex with them.....because "technically" you love that person and thus should care for their health




Agreed. But, in the case of the hetrosexual couple they are married for the sake of God (hopefully.....but God knows best), whereas homosexuals are married for the sake of each other and not for God (they don't care about God's opinion as they went against His rules).



You don't understand my point. I am not saying there is no point to human relationships. I am saying that a person should do everything only for the sake of God and a relationship with Him should transcend human relationships.

Meaning.....you never know where human relationships will lead you.....but through following the rules of God you know where God wants to lead you.....so the rules of God should transcend the desires that are placed inside you and you should do what God wants you to do and not what people want you to do.

And I think I may be confusing you more.....so I'll provide some examples.

Parents: Lets say A's parents are very conservative in their religion. A researches religion and wants to convert because he thinks X religion brings him closer to God. His parents go berserk.

Or peer pressure.....specifically something that will lead to drugs, etc.

I can provide a personal example on this account. One of my dad's friends has a son who went to study in a different province on his own. The son, because he did not think God was important through peer/societal pressure, became a bad "seed". He had sexual relationships and used drugs, etc. If in this case it was a person who did not care that much about personal relationships but cared about God more.......he would not have become bad.

Similarly.......I notice things like this in some of my friends. They care a lot about their religion but suppress those feelings because they care to much about what others might "think". Though much of what "others might think" is actually only a figment of their imagination and probably not what the people will think. These friends don't realize that eventually (even though they are trying so hard to show their friends how "cool" they are) the friends will grow apart. Similarly all worldly relationships eventually grow apart. Only God remains.



I'll be honest and say that before I had a conversation with one of my cousins I was a hardcore thinker that gays made a conscious choice about being gay. After that conversation though I changed my mind. I don't have any footing or proof to support a belief that gays actually make a conscious choice. Maybe God makes some people that way. Similarly I have read that God has made the sexual desires of some men stronger then others.

I am going to say that I never said those gay people did not rely on Allah. I am going to start making some generalizations now. Who is to say that a drunk, a rapist, a woman beater, a child beater, a druggy, a liar, a murderer etc. also do not rely on Allah? Though of course gay people are above most of these people in morality. They all could rely on Allah, even though they are all sinning....and thus are not on the same spiritual footing.



What you said as your first sentence is actually also a saying of our Prophet aka a man should not trust solely in God but should first tie his camel and then put his trust in God. God tests people; people should not test God.

And when I wrote that part I was not even pointing to homosexuality as a connection. Relying on someone does not mean blind reliance, neither does it mean testing the limits.




You should have read on.......you are totally confusing what I said. What I meant by "intelligent" was that when children are young you can tell them things and sometimes/mostly they will blindly follow especially if you are watching.....but when they grow up they start questioning everything, and rebelling against your rules.

I was not at all referring to the fact that when children are young they are stupid and are not "aware of relationship". I do not think children are stupid at all. Children are very intelligent. For example, how their mind is like a camera......how they can pick up hypocrisy very easily......

They probably know about the special relationship already as children but just don't want to mouth it because they are not sure of what to say.




I never said in this part that being gay=selfish desires! I was talking about the children having selfish desires and wasn't even basing it on gender!



This is exactly what I was tying to say.

Example of scenario: Lets say their is a married couple who are perfect Muslims except for the fact that they are homosexual. They raise their kids to be perfect Muslims (except are only liberal on the gender relationship issue). The kids will eventually grow up....lets say the kids have a lot of knowledge of the Qur'an........so the kids will realize that being homosexual is not okay with God. So they will think it's okay to make exceptions to rules. Thus drinking, lying, gambling, etc. will become "okay" for them.....and will get worse as generations pass in their family.

It's not really like that. It's just that I'm worried. Most of the guys I know are not mature enough yet (and they are the same age as me) to raise kids. But I also know that guys that seem to not be mature, and then have kids, somehow gain a lot of maturity in a little while and become very good fathers.

What I want is to marry someone who will not only be a good husband (someone that I can talk to.....who won't make fun of me for every little personal thing I say) and someone that is a good father. And you don't know who's going to be a good father or not.

For example, I consider my dad to be a good dad because he works a lot but also finds time to spend with us. Whereas I consider one of my uncles to be a bad dad because he is strict, and likes spending more time with his friends then with his children.

Marriage I think I can handle. And lol I'm not planning to get married in the first place until my dreams are completed (school wise). And my other dreams, like adopting children, I can probably guilt him into.

And you're wrong....marriage in our religion is very easy. But, traditions say that from all the allowed things in religion it is the most frowned upon by God.

For example, a woman went to the Prophet (saw) and asked him if she could divorce her husband. The Prophet (saw) said does he not look after you needs? She said No. He asked does he not take care of you enough? She said no. He asked then why do you want to divorce him? She replied that she had lived with him for many years but could not seem to love him. The Prophet replied, okay then if you want to divorce him your divorce will be accepted.