Advise Me, Friends

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

Fresnel

Okay, you're taking this like sabots are the be-all end-all, 100% certain reason for the rifled choke's existence. That's just plain not true. Stabilizing sabots is more likely than not not its prime purpose. It's built to stabilize specially-built non-rifled slugs, and Foster slugs. The fact that it's not to be used with Brennekes makes me think it's also slightly choked.

And what DOES physics dictate? Either it spins, or it shears off a ******** of lead like rough wood on a plane. One way or another, SOMETHING happens, and I don't think it's shearing. It's soft, meaning it deforms easily. It grabs the rifling with a minimum of fuss and holds on for a spin. We're not talking ten rotations to an inch, we're talking closer to ten inches to one rotation. More likely than not if it's a 3" choke, it's got half a rotation in it. It's not a steep angle. And yeah it'll grab a sabot. Plastic deforms even easier than lead, and it's a wider shell, so it's got more pressure pushing outwards against the rifling.

So it only really works with special slugs? I still say it NOWHERE NEAR WORTH IT. Ammunition+practice>worthless choke.
Especially with that practice, I can get just as good groupings by selecting the right slug that fits my gun better, or even just the BRAND it likes. If I do my part, I could get 4" groups at 100 yards with the correct choice of slug, and maybe replacing the bead sight. And then, if I have to suddenly change ammunition, I don't have a "spreader" choke anymore, I still have plain Cylinder.
The cost is not worth the minuscule to none increase in effectiveness. Buckhammer slugs are usually $13-$15 for 5 depending on gauge and size (2 3/4 or 3), which is right up there with sabot slugs. I managed to find them on sale for $7 for 5. Foster slugs are often undersize, and squeeze down their soft lead "fins" when they aren't.
If I want maximum range and accuracy, I'll get a RIFLE. That's what they are FOR. Shotguns are designed for limited range in the first place.
Don't forget you can bugger up your threads because it tightens the choke when the slug hits it.

You really aren't seeing this, are you? Let's go over this. You find Foster slugs your gun is happy with, through a cylinder choke. Alright, you're pulling 3" groups at 100 yards. Not bad, really. Now you slap on a rifled choke. Oh look, you've just taken a proven match and added gyroscopic stability to it. Suddenly, 2" groups. It's like taking a Dodge Viper and dropping in a turbo. Sure it was fast to begin with, but now it's FASTER.

You getting it now?

Actually, it's like putting a "turbo" sticker on the Viper, after dropping in some aluminum foil, because it has yet to be proven in the slightest, with user testimonials being from "negligible" to "nothing extra at all".

Until I see actual evidence, I'm going to say that no snake oil could last as long as this choke has. When did the Rem-Choke system come out, the 70's?

I also find it odd that in the entire life of the internet, nobody seems to have posted an actual scientific test of the damn things.

Rifled chokes have been around longer than that, but NOT FOR SLUGS. They were used to widen patterns with shot, but not as radically as a fully rifled barrel. Arguably, make it minimally larger than the pattern in Cylinder or IC.

Why?
Maybe they really sucked at clays, and were only doing close-range clays.

I cannot see ANY practical use to that. I was about to say it might be good for shooting snakes that are at your feet, but spreading it like that would just make you shoot your own feet.  

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

EDIT:
Looking on Gunbroker for M9 bayonets... HOLY ******** s**t! It's like looking for M4 Bayonets! And they only made so many of those! They are STILL making the M9 bayonet, and considering the wide spread of the AR-15 pattern rifle, you'd think it would be cheaper! Apparently everyone has the one used to bayonet-charge Hussein, and the surface rust is from Vietnam!

You can get an M7 for $20, and they fit the same mount. Alternatively, there's the OKC-3S, but those are probably even more expensive than the M9s.

Though... have you checked CTD?

ETA: There's some M9s on eBay for as low as $40.  

[owenmarco]

Fresnel

owenmarco

EDIT:
Looking on Gunbroker for M9 bayonets... HOLY ******** s**t! It's like looking for M4 Bayonets! And they only made so many of those! They are STILL making the M9 bayonet, and considering the wide spread of the AR-15 pattern rifle, you'd think it would be cheaper! Apparently everyone has the one used to bayonet-charge Hussein, and the surface rust is from Vietnam!

You can get an M7 for $20, and they fit the same mount. Alternatively, there's the OKC-3S, but those are probably even more expensive than the M9s.

Though... have you checked CTD?

ETA: There's some M9s on eBay for as low as $40.

The M7 seems like a good work around since it's the same mount.

I'll usually check Gunbroker first because of bargains on latter pages. I generally avoid CTD, myself, unless I can't help it. I haven't had very good service, it's just been slow. Ironically, it's still been faster and better than US Cavalry.  

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

Fresnel

owenmarco

EDIT:
Looking on Gunbroker for M9 bayonets... HOLY ******** s**t! It's like looking for M4 Bayonets! And they only made so many of those! They are STILL making the M9 bayonet, and considering the wide spread of the AR-15 pattern rifle, you'd think it would be cheaper! Apparently everyone has the one used to bayonet-charge Hussein, and the surface rust is from Vietnam!

You can get an M7 for $20, and they fit the same mount. Alternatively, there's the OKC-3S, but those are probably even more expensive than the M9s.

Though... have you checked CTD?

ETA: There's some M9s on eBay for as low as $40.

The M7 seems like a good work around since it's the same mount.

I'll usually check Gunbroker first because of bargains on latter pages. I generally avoid CTD, myself, unless I can't help it. I haven't had very good service, it's just been slow. Ironically, it's still been faster and better than US Cavalry.

I've got an M7, got it either from CTD or SPG, for $20. Solid knife, definitely a good buy. It WAS razor-sharp, but then I tried to re-blue it. Protip: bluing eats the edge off. Needs another sharpening.

Of course US Cavalry is slow, they've been dead for 100 years! Zombies are notoriously slow.

Seriously though, the one order I made from CTD came in two or three days later, in full, no hassle. I've heard similar reports from many other people. Maybe you just got un-lucky?  

[owenmarco]

And a note on ATG:

If you have the option, buy your ammo there! I ordered the 50 round lot of Fiocchi low-recoil #00 late last night, and it's shipping today. And they're "busy"! I want to see what it's like on a day with no one else ordering.  

[ArmasTermin]

owenmarco

And a note on ATG:

If you have the option, buy your ammo there! I ordered the 50 round lot of Fiocchi low-recoil #00 late last night, and it's shipping today. And they're "busy"! I want to see what it's like on a day with no one else ordering.

The day I buy the gun, I'll probably order some from there. Mid January if all goes well.

Still deciding a little bit. I know it'll be in the Mossberg 590 series, but I'm working between the A1 or not, and the 18" or 20" barrel. It'll probably be the 20", but I might end up with the 590 SP, but I can't find one with the bead sight, 9-round without the useless heat shield. I mean I'm trying to have less weight, not more. Who can load and fire a pump shotgun fast enough to burn their fingers on the hot barrel? It's not an AA-12 for God's sake.

Of course the A1 is the one that's quality is assured by its military use record.  

[owenmarco]

ArmasTermin

owenmarco

And a note on ATG:

If you have the option, buy your ammo there! I ordered the 50 round lot of Fiocchi low-recoil #00 late last night, and it's shipping today. And they're "busy"! I want to see what it's like on a day with no one else ordering.

The day I buy the gun, I'll probably order some from there. Mid January if all goes well.

Still deciding a little bit. I know it'll be in the Mossberg 590 series, but I'm working between the A1 or not, and the 18" or 20" barrel. It'll probably be the 20", but I might end up with the 590 SP, but I can't find one with the bead sight, 9-round without the useless heat shield. I mean I'm trying to have less weight, not more. Who can load and fire a pump shotgun fast enough to burn their fingers on the hot barrel? It's not an AA-12 for God's sake.

Of course the A1 is the one that's quality is assured by its military use record.

If you can't find one without it period, just take it off. And then look and see if there is any demand at all for them, because you might be able to sell it.


Some people like the heat shields, because it does heat up faster than you think. Not as fast as just about any rifle, mind you, but faster than you'd think.

And don't forget, because of the magazine design, you CAN buy an 18.5" barrel and just take the 20" off, and take off the magazine extension. Then you now have one in that configuration.
And if you ever have any spring troubles, go for Wolff. High quality springs, with great service. I swear all these people don't pay me, but I should demand they do.  

[Fresnel]

owenmarco

And a note on ATG:

If you have the option, buy your ammo there! I ordered the 50 round lot of Fiocchi low-recoil #00 late last night, and it's shipping today. And they're "busy"! I want to see what it's like on a day with no one else ordering.

I've never bought from ATG, but I did buy a decent order from Centerfire Systems once. Good price (at the time), fast shipping, and a good product. I just wish they'd informed me that Wolf Military Classic is steel cored.  

[ArmasTermin]

I had considered the 18.5" and then getting a magazine extension for the full 9-shot capacity, but it seems a little pointless if I still end up with most of the same weight and length and slightly diminished accuracy, not to mention the added cost and work involved in doing that. sweatdrop

Maybe I'll just stop being a p***y and man up to the full size. lol

I just know from the 500 Persuader I handled that 18" is exceptionally mobile, and I loved the way it moved and pointed.

And I'm reconsidering ghost ring sights because of how well I do with the SPAS-12 in MW2, and it has those sights.  

[Fresnel]

ArmasTermin

I had considered the 18.5" and then getting a magazine extension for the full 9-shot capacity, but it seems a little pointless if I still end up with most of the same weight and length and slightly diminished accuracy, not to mention the added cost and work involved in doing that. sweatdrop

Maybe I'll just stop being a p***y and man up to the full size. lol

I just know from the 500 Persuader I handled that 18" is exceptionally mobile, and I loved the way it moved and pointed.

And I'm reconsidering ghost ring sights because of how well I do with the SPAS-12 in MW2, and it has those sights.

Shotguns don't really lose accuracy with barrel length. I think after the first 16", barrel length changes nothing, ballistically speaking.

Ghost rings are incredible. I got to shoot some 500/590 with ghost rings at a Practical Shotgun: How To booth... first time with that model of gun, that style of sight, and that course... and I set the course record at -2.98 seconds. I really have no idea why they're not more popular. Cost, maybe? Anyway, with a bead, you only have a front sight, and so you lose rather a lot in aiming. The vent rib is slightly better, but a ghost ring has the speed of a bead, but the potential accuracy of rifle sights (depending on how much care you take with sight alignment). You can drive slugs with a ghost ring at easily twice the accuracy of a bead. To compare... imagine taping the rear sight on a rifle or pistol. Not gonna be accurate. This is why I recommended a 590 over an 870 to Hans on the last page. I will never own a tactical shotgun without ghost rings (unless I simply haven't upgraded yet). I MIGHT leave the vent rib on a clays gun, if I ever get one, but if I plan to do just about anything else, I want ghost rings.  

[owenmarco]

ArmasTermin

I had considered the 18.5" and then getting a magazine extension for the full 9-shot capacity, but it seems a little pointless if I still end up with most of the same weight and length and slightly diminished accuracy, not to mention the added cost and work involved in doing that. sweatdrop

Maybe I'll just stop being a p***y and man up to the full size. lol

I just know from the 500 Persuader I handled that 18" is exceptionally mobile, and I loved the way it moved and pointed.

And I'm reconsidering ghost ring sights because of how well I do with the SPAS-12 in MW2, and it has those sights.

Really, you'd be better off with the full-length, with factory extension. And THEN buying an 18" or 18.5" barrel, magazine cap, magazine spring, and retainer, at a later point in time. It would be cheaper than getting a 20" barrel, extension, and spring later.

As well, if you wish, you can buy both new barrels with Accu-choke (only comes with Modified, though). Yes Fresnel, they make the 590 with screw-in chokes. They are damn near worthless in a defense gun, because of the expected range of use and being a point of failure. But they have the option. I guess that's why they don't specify when buying a whole gun, only new barrels.  

[ArmasTermin]

Okay, I'm thinking 590A1 if I want the 20", 500 Persuader if I want the 18".

Most of the features that make the A1 the A1 aren't actually useful to me. For instance, I could take or leave a metal trigger guard, safety, and heavy barrel, especially if I could lose weight by not having them.

I mean no one complains about all the polymer on ARs.





Well some people do.

And as cool as it would be to mount a bayonet on it, I can think of exactly one single time in which that would be useful--and that's defending the homestead from potential looters after a hurricane. I mean not much says "get off my lawn" like 9-rounds of buckshot and a seven-inch blade. twisted

Anyway the best idea would probably be to wait until the gun show, where I can actually handle some. Because all the crap about "too heavy" "too long" is meaningless until I hold the damn things.

EDIT: Okay, now I want the 20" A1 again.

EDIT: Okay, now I want this: http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=84708
Looks like a great deal, and ideal for my beginnerness. Great versatility with the two barrels, but does "ported" mean what I usually think of as porting, with holes drilled near the end of the barrel? I don't want that. And which barrel is that?

The more I think about this combination, the more I see it as exactly what I want. I'd get that handy, pointable 18.5" barrel, plus the long one for if (when!) I try clay shooting. It even comes with a pistol grip so I can play Terminator. Not to mention wood furniture is win + it's cheaper.

Didn't one of you suggest something exactly like this three or four pages ago...?  

[OberFeldwebel]

I don't know if this has been said but I've heard that some Mossbergs can be front heavy and awkward to shoulder.

I've shot one, probably an early 500 that was balanced just right.

So try one out if you can.

I'd definitely buy one of those if I could find one.


The Remington 870?

Eh.
I tried an 870 and I just didn't like it that much.
The type of finish or metal treatment on it made an awful grinding noise when you cycled it.
No thanks, wont get one.

Now a Winchester 1200, fook year!
I have a Ranger 120, a supposedly 'lower end' 1200, cheaper wood on it, really nice though and shoots great.  

[owenmarco]

ArmasTermin

Okay, I'm thinking 590A1 if I want the 20", 500 Persuader if I want the 18".

Most of the features that make the A1 the A1 aren't actually useful to me. For instance, I could take or leave a metal trigger guard, safety, and heavy barrel, especially if I could lose weight by not having them.

I mean no one complains about all the polymer on ARs.





Well some people do.

And as cool as it would be to mount a bayonet on it, I can think of exactly one single time in which that would be useful--and that's defending the homestead from potential looters after a hurricane. I mean not much says "get off my lawn" like 9-rounds of buckshot and a seven-inch blade. twisted

Anyway the best idea would probably be to wait until the gun show, where I can actually handle some. Because all the crap about "too heavy" "too long" is meaningless until I hold the damn things.

EDIT: Okay, now I want the 20" A1 again.

EDIT: Okay, now I want this: http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=84708
Looks like a great deal, and ideal for my beginnerness. Great versatility with the two barrels, but does "ported" mean what I usually think of as porting, with holes drilled near the end of the barrel? I don't want that. And which barrel is that?

The more I think about this combination, the more I see it as exactly what I want. I'd get that handy, pointable 18.5" barrel, plus the long one for if (when!) I try clay shooting. It even comes with a pistol grip so I can play Terminator. Not to mention wood furniture is win + it's cheaper.

Didn't one of you suggest something exactly like this three or four pages ago...?

I've been suggesting combos all along for multiple barrel options. They are great deals compared to buying everything separate. Even Walmart sells them pretty cheap.  

[ArmasTermin]

Wal Marts around here stopped carrying firearms quite a while ago (except a couple muzzle loaders). I don't actually know why, but it kind of sucks. It'd be a great place for a deal on one.

I realized in a bigger picture of that combo that the porting is in the 28" barrel, off to both sides of the vented rib. I guess it releases some pressure caused from the choke? Or it could be to keep down muzzle rise, but since that would be lower than the 18" I don't see the point if it's for that.

Yeah, I had it in my head that I needed a super combat shotgun, but that combo looks just plain great to me. I should have listened to you a long time ago.