AFG Sallies

[Shaviv]

This is retch-worthy. (NSFW if your boss is a Republican or hates Arabs, btw.)

I am deeply, deeply disappointed in the United States of America - the government thereof, and my fellow citizens for allowing the government to not do its job and let the place be run by an oligarchy.  

[FogSage]

I don't see the issue here. Someone under Bush says that the torture shown is not torture?

He's a real p***y for not admitting it.  

[FogSage]

I'm having some issues with my new camera software for the computer. When it asked me if I wanted to register all files in My Pictures, I assumed that was a good thing. Little did I know what it did was show EVERY PICTURE IN MY PICTURES THAT I HAVE. Do not want. I have porn on there, and yiff. I want only the pictures I take on my camera to show up.

After ten minutes, I realize it won't let me pick and choose which folders I want to register. Which means I'm going to have to copy all my pictures to another folder and just have pictures I take under My Pictures. Which bites a**.

EDIT: This has got to be the most retarded program I've ever seen. Even after moving all the stuff I didn't want seen into another folder and away from My Pictures, it says that they're still registered. I don't want every ******** image I have to be shown, dammit!

I hate Sony now. It makes me want to throw my PS2 off a roof.

EDIT 2: I finally managed to fix the problem, no thanks to the geniuses who designed this....software, if that's what you want to call it. Why does it have to be all or nothing? Why can't you pick and choose which files you want to view and which ones you don't?

I had to move everything that wasn't pertaining to camera pictures to a new file, which is a huge pain in the a** for me. Now, to save space, I'm having to go into each individually dated picture folder my old camera made whenever I downloaded a batch of pictures, copy the contents, and the pictures themselves in the My Pictures folder. I have about 11 more folders with shitloads of photos.

*grinds teeth*  

[Crenn]

I've been to the first day of MidFur which was a dinner. I met goldfur there and got a picture taken with him. My mother and sister are giving me lectures but to me it's normal when I go out to anywhere by myself.

Can't wait til they go to england.  

[Iron-_-Wolf]

Shaviv

This is retch-worthy. (NSFW if your boss is a Republican or hates Arabs, btw.)

I am deeply, deeply disappointed in the United States of America - the government thereof, and my fellow citizens for allowing the government to not do its job and let the place be run by an oligarchy.

I agree to some extent that this is indeed a horrible thing to do to people. But, if I may play the devil's advocate. First of all, after I got done basic and before I was accepted into the academy, I got water boarded my my chain of command. It's psychological, you actually feel no pain. Secondly, a little bit of that kind of torture can be necessary to save american lives. They don't want to tell us where they took our captured men, we need to make them talk. Thirdly, that is nothing compared to what they do to us. We rough them up a little for answers, they torture us. Our troops get captured and get beaten, sliced up, burned, and almost always eventually beheaded. I think we're doing a fine job.  

[Shaviv]

Iron-_-Wolf

Shaviv

This is retch-worthy. (NSFW if your boss is a Republican or hates Arabs, btw.)

I am deeply, deeply disappointed in the United States of America - the government thereof, and my fellow citizens for allowing the government to not do its job and let the place be run by an oligarchy.

I agree to some extent that this is indeed a horrible thing to do to people. But, if I may play the devil's advocate. First of all, after I got done basic and before I was accepted into the academy, I got water boarded my my chain of command. It's psychological, you actually feel no pain. Secondly, a little bit of that kind of torture can be necessary to save american lives. They don't want to tell us where they took our captured men, we need to make them talk. Thirdly, that is nothing compared to what they do to us. We rough them up a little for answers, they torture us. Our troops get captured and get beaten, sliced up, burned, and almost always eventually beheaded. I think we're doing a fine job.

"They do it to us, so it's okay for us to do it to them" is not an acceptable justification, and it sucks as an excuse too.

Also, the thing about torture is that it's about fear and anxiety, it's not about the actual experience of pain. You're trying to use whatever means you possibly can to get someone to experience that fear and anxiety, and you tell him that to resolve it, all he has to do is tell you what he knows. Oh, and he'll tell you everything, including things that are irrelevant and things that are not true. Do you want to have to be the one to sort through a man's deranged rantings to find out which statements are "actionable intelligence", which are irrelevant and which are false, when the lives of your countrymen hang in the balance?

I don't think you can do it, see? If you say to someone willing to die in a mission against you, "We're going to keep you here until we find out whether or not you've lied to us, and if you lied to us, we'll kill you," what kind of deterrent is that? It just makes his job easier.

There's also the issue of, you know, the treaties that our government helped write, and then signed and ratified, that regulate the treatment of prisoners of war; and there's also the laws we have about treatment of prisoners in custody under civil law. Using any technique that carries with it a risk of causing serious and permanent derangement of mental function, possibly also brain damage, would seem to be ethically problematic in general, to say nothing of illegal.

There's an established record of people who've developed serious mental illnesses, to say nothing of suffering serious injuries or dying, while in US military custody.

In any case, how can we say that waterboarding is not torture, if we've accepted that it was in prior wars, and it was gleefully used by other governments and powers such as the Imperial Japanese government, the North Korean government, the Catholic Church in Spain, and even the US Army in the Philippines? And if an American were waterboarded by any foreign power, oh how we'd scream.

We're better than that.

As an aside or two: there was also an American soldier who was assigned to play the role of a prisoner, in a disobedient-prisoner exercise at a military prison for suspected terrorists; the riot squad, who had not been told he was an American, broke his fingers and smashed his head into the floor, repeatedly, to the point that he suffered skull fractures and, yes, brain damage. That's the standard of care for treatment of detainees, is it? Used to be, if the regular Army took captives, that when they were formally taken into custody they'd be given a hot meal, interviewed for all the information they were willing to give, and then housed in a style equivalent to the way American soldiers were living. If GIs were in barracks, prisoners were in barracks. If the GIs were in tents, prisoners were in tents. And if GIs were in barracks and there were no barracks available for the prisoners, GIs and prisoners alike used tents. Not that it was all peachy, you understand, but there used to be meaningful standards.  

[Iron-_-Wolf]

Iron-_-Wolf

Shaviv

This is retch-worthy. (NSFW if your boss is a Republican or hates Arabs, btw.)

I am deeply, deeply disappointed in the United States of America - the government thereof, and my fellow citizens for allowing the government to not do its job and let the place be run by an oligarchy.

I agree to some extent that this is indeed a horrible thing to do to people. But, if I may play the devil's advocate. First of all, after I got done basic and before I was accepted into the academy, I got water boarded my my chain of command. It's psychological, you actually feel no pain. Secondly, a little bit of that kind of torture can be necessary to save american lives. They don't want to tell us where they took our captured men, we need to make them talk. Thirdly, that is nothing compared to what they do to us. We rough them up a little for answers, they torture us. Our troops get captured and get beaten, sliced up, burned, and almost always eventually beheaded. I think we're doing a fine job.

Shaviv

"They do it to us, so it's okay for us to do it to them" is not an acceptable justification, and it sucks as an excuse too.

That's really easy to say when you aren't there. There is nothing nice about war. When you know the people who are getting blown up by makeshift bombs, it's real easy to forget your humanity, and see them as a creature. I'm not proud of that fact, but it is a fact. You watch your friend die in a terrible manner, and tell me how easy it is to not look for revenge when the people who did it to him are right there in front of you.

Shaviv

Also, the thing about torture is that it's about fear and anxiety, it's not about the actual experience of pain. You're trying to use whatever means you possibly can to get someone to experience that fear and anxiety, and you tell him that to resolve it, all he has to do is tell you what he knows. Oh, and he'll tell you everything, including things that are irrelevant and things that are not true. Do you want to have to be the one to sort through a man's deranged rantings to find out which statements are "actionable intelligence", which are irrelevant and which are false, when the lives of your countrymen hang in the balance?

Yes, I understand that torture has alot to do with fear. It's a very effective means to get information. It is tried and true. if I have men that are going to die, then I will do any and every horrible thing to get any information I can to save my men. Secondly, yes some intel can be false. But at least it's better then nothing. With no intel you can't even begin to save them, at least by interrogation you can try. Also I know exactly what it's like to have that kind of burden hang over my head. I'm training to be a lieutenant. I'm in charge of an entire platoon of men, and they are my responsibility.

Shaviv

I don't think you can do it, see? If you say to someone willing to die in a mission against you, "We're going to keep you here until we find out whether or not you've lied to us, and if you lied to us, we'll kill you," what kind of deterrent is that? It just makes his job easier.

Very rarely would we kill a prisoner. Actually the promise of much more torture is what gets them to talk, we will keep them alive forever, but make their life hell. We do not ever kill our prisoners. But you are right. I'm willing to die for my cause, and if I were captured, I'd rather them execute me then tell them any information that would let them hurt my brothers.

Shaviv

There's also the issue of, you know, the treaties that our government helped write, and then signed and ratified, that regulate the treatment of prisoners of war; and there's also the laws we have about treatment of prisoners in custody under civil law. Using any technique that carries with it a risk of causing serious and permanent derangement of mental function, possibly also brain damage, would seem to be ethically problematic in general, to say nothing of illegal.

Again, that is so easy to defend when you look at it on paper. But if you never see what goes on with your own eyes, you have no idea. It's an environment of pure hell. Where frankly, no damn laws any government has come up with applies. They do terrible things to us, and I won't lie, we do equally bad things to them.

Shaviv

There's an established record of people who've developed serious mental illnesses, to say nothing of suffering serious injuries or dying, while in US military custody.

I believe you. There is also a record of all the US soldiers that have suffered equal mental illness from the stress and horrid environment they are exposed to for months at a time.

Shaviv

In any case, how can we say that waterboarding is not torture, if we've accepted that it was in prior wars, and it was gleefully used by other governments and powers such as the Imperial Japanese government, the North Korean government, the Catholic Church in Spain, and even the US Army in the Philippines? And if an American were waterboarded by any foreign power, oh how we'd scream.

I don't disagree at all. It is torture, and very effective torture at that. But they do much worse things to us then that, so I feel no remorse.

Shaviv

We're better than that.

No, we are all equally human and fallible. As I've kept saying, in this kind of situation, you have to rethink your priorities.

Shaviv

As an aside or two: there was also an American soldier who was assigned to play the role of a prisoner, in a disobedient-prisoner exercise at a military prison for suspected terrorists; the riot squad, who had not been told he was an American, broke his fingers and smashed his head into the floor, repeatedly, to the point that he suffered skull fractures and, yes, brain damage. That's the standard of care for treatment of detainees, is it? Used to be, if the regular Army took captives, that when they were formally taken into custody they'd be given a hot meal, interviewed for all the information they were willing to give, and then housed in a style equivalent to the way American soldiers were living. If GIs were in barracks, prisoners were in barracks. If the GIs were in tents, prisoners were in tents. And if GIs were in barracks and there were no barracks available for the prisoners, GIs and prisoners alike used tents. Not that it was all peachy, you understand, but there used to be meaningful standards.

This I completely believe. I agree that it is also very ******** up. I feel very bad for him. But I still stand by the effectiveness of torture and interrogation, and it's unfortunate that government bureaucrats cooked up the idea of sending in an undercover to prove that it's bad. I already knew it was bad, and I'm disgusted at the fact that we must try to uphold such high moral standards in the middle of a god damned war!

As a final aside. I can't lie, I am very biased. I am in the army. I do thirst to kill every Arab that so much as gives an ill look to me or my men, because it is my job above all else to keep them safe. But do you blame me? I'm willing to give my life for my country, but more importantly, I'm willing to take a thousand for my country. Regardless of what my own conscience says.  

[Selene Aries]

Shaviv, do not think for a moment that the US has ever at any point in time in history not use some sort of torture to help persuade uncooperative detainees during an interrogation. Be it purely psychological, or physical, as long as there has been war torture has been used, on at least some level.

We just have done a better job of not getting caught in the past. Truly, when it comes to the people's level of knowledge of what our government and soldiers are doing during a military conflict, ignorance is bliss.

I may never have served, but I am not naive to the ways of war. There are no rules and every side is doing whatever they can to both survive and win.  

[Krissim Klaw]

Iron-_-Wolf

They do terrible things to us, and I won't lie, we do equally bad things to them.

This is just about the only sentence in the discussion that interests me. If the army/government/higher ups would just admit that I wouldn't find the whole situation such a farce when they skirt over the issue of torture. Instead, they act like little kids who got stuck with their hands in the cookie jar and claim it was the cookies fault for being eaten  

[Angelic Muse]

Um, make peace not war? biggrin heart

I WISH. sweatdrop  

[DeletedUsername420]

Make love not war heart  

[FogSage]

Shaviv, war isn't about being fair, just, or moral. It's not like a Victorian-era duel, where one person slaps the other one in the face with a glove, they pace off, and then one shoots the other and it's done. Wars are messy and bloody and like Iron-Wolf said, there are no rules. Wars are essentially about revenge, as a way of getting even. It's kill or be killed, and I don't know about you, but if I had to die in a war, I'd want to take out as many of the people I'm up against. That's your job in a war, to kill the supposed enemies of your country.

Your heart bleeds too easily. Pity for an enemy is unworthy, especially in times of war. You view enemy combatants as human beings, same as us, but how can you equate them to us when all they have is a maddening desire to kill every American they can find all for the sake of their religion?  

[Angelic Muse]

Uh Fogsage that's a HUGE generalization you are making there... whee

You're telling him his heart bleeds to easily? Now I'm all for killing someone who's trying to kill me back but what about the way they have been brought up? Their enviornment and their religion have dictated the majority of their life without freedom of choice such as ours. Even IF every single one WANTED to kill us all, they feel their religion and their culture gives them that right and that purpose. Sure if one is coming out with a gun or whatever feel free to shoot. That doesn't mean you can't have pity or view them as human beings just like the rest of us.

I'm not in the army. I have friends who are or are going to be. The last thing I want is one of them to get blown up or shot. But I'm not going to give up my sympathy because we started this damn war in the first place anyway.  

[FogSage]

Angelic Muse

Uh Fogsage that's a HUGE generalization you are making there... whee

You're telling him his heart bleeds to easily? Now I'm all for killing someone who's trying to kill me back but what about the way they have been brought up? Their enviornment and their religion have dictated the majority of their life without freedom of choice such as ours. Even IF every single one WANTED to kill us all, they feel their religion and their culture gives them that right and that purpose. Sure if one is coming out with a gun or whatever feel free to shoot. That doesn't mean you can't have pity or view them as human beings just like the rest of us.

I'm not in the army. I have friends who are or are going to be. The last thing I want is one of them to get blown up or shot. But I'm not going to give up my sympathy because we started this damn war in the first place anyway.

Using their culture as an excuse is bullshit. They believe that they alone deserve to live, and those who do not believe in their God or worship other deities are heathens and should be exterminated.

I can't pity brainwashed murderers. Sure, they were brainwashed, but they CHOSE to let themselves be brainwashed. And in doing so, they do not deserve my pity, but rather my hatred and my disgust.  

[Sunegami]

I agree with Muse and Shaviv.

My younger brother was just sworn in as a Marine recruit a few days ago. He's realizing a dream he's had since he was very young, but frankly, I'm terrified for him. As much as we've squabbled through our lives (as siblings are wont to do), he's still my brother, and I don't want anything bad to happen to him.

I'm proud of him, but I'll be damned if I'm going to subscribe to his beliefs that anyone who's not American, Christian, or some combination of the two is not worthy of. . . well, anything.

I can empathize, I can pity, but I leave no room in my heart for hate.