Diffrent kinda muslims

[kasimir-b]

oh yeah, and this is all coming from a sunni.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

kasimir-b

unfortunately, i dont have time right now to respond to the entire post, so i will post to the part i find most important the bolded part):

i dont find my opinion more important than that of the prophet. however, the hadiths (in my oppinion), while they must revered for they are said to be the words of the Prophet (pbuh), but they can not supercede those of the quran.

that was the main point of my argument.

however, because the hadiths are stories of the prophet, (and more specifically things he said), and they were not relayed for the angel Jibril from Allah (swt) to the prophet, and more importantly, when the hadiths were being collected from the many people who were lucky enough to encounter the Prophet, they were told by ordinary people. theres only so much that can remain intact interms of remembering the words of the prophet verbatim. therein lies the possibility for differences, and inconsistencies. it is because of this that they can not be viewed with the assumption that they are as perfect as the quran itself

and in terms of rejecting the companions, i would have to do some more research in order to respond to that, but my uneducated answer/response politics have little to do with beliefs. to me thats the same as a wahabi telling me that i'm going straight to hell because generally shave, or keep an unkempt beard, dont beat my significant other, preach total domination of religion over life, while at the same time selling opium to pay for bills. (i am refering to the taliban)

also, another note to that, this is pure opinion, if they do not reject the prophet (pbuh) and his distinction of the last of the prophets, then why would they not be muslims?

no offense, arabs have always been known to cause divisions among themselves for petty reasons (case in point, a superiority complex which i have noticed among most saudis) not saying anyone else is any better, but that still has kept in mind when determining the cause of this political debate.

Here's the thing. The books of Hadith that Sunnis accept, especially Bukhari and Muslim, have had extensive work done to show whether they are strong or weak. So there shouldn't be any doubt as to the authenticity of those Ahadith. Also, they do hold an extremely high position, right after the Qur'an. Even all four Sunni madhabs use Hadith to derive their rulings when the Qur'an is silent on a certain topic.
So if the Hadith says something not contradicting the Qur'an [and if it's authentic, it won't] then it should be accepted. If the Hadith talks about something barely or never mentioned in the Qur'an, it should be accepted if it is authentic.
To my knowledge, the Qur'an doesn't talk about sects to this extent of detail. The Hadith is also authentic. Therefore, it is usable to derive conclusions and rulings. So just because my point relied on a Hadith doesn't make it any weaker.

Also, the actual Shi'a religion does reject most of the companions. Most are called Hypocrites, apostates, and the like. Just because you met a Shi'a who doesn't hold that view doesn't mean that Shi'ism doesn't hold that view either. :]

Well, their acceptance of Muhammad [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] as the last Prophet is really really threatened by their invented concept of "Imams". These 12 Imam superheroes have been given many traits that only prophets were given [and some the even Prophets didn't get!]. That is the basis of the Sh'ia religion. Again, just because a few self-proclaimed Shi'as don't hold this view, it doesn't mean that the religion itself doesn't.
Also, notice how Shi'as will say "alayhi salam" after the name of any so-called Imam. That greeting is reserved for the Prophets!  

[kasimir-b]

i would continue this discussion, but i guess it would be pointless to.

but one big question i pose to everyone. who actually has the power to judge the value of ones beliefs about god?

my opinion:
no one on this forum, no one on this planet, only allah (swt). that being said, how have come to degrading the unity of our faith by allowing a disagreement such as this to hinder our beliefs?  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

kasimir-b

i would continue this discussion, but i guess it would be pointless to.

but one big question i pose to everyone. who actually has the power to judge the value of ones beliefs about god?

my opinion:
no one on this forum, no one on this planet, only allah (swt). that being said, how have come to degrading the unity of our faith by allowing a disagreement such as this to hinder our beliefs?

If there was no one to speak out against deviation, then Islam would have already vanished from this planet.  

[The Dead Terrorist Achmed]

[ Absolut Terror ]

kasimir-b

i would continue this discussion, but i guess it would be pointless to.

but one big question i pose to everyone. who actually has the power to judge the value of ones beliefs about god?

my opinion:
no one on this forum, no one on this planet, only allah (swt). that being said, how have come to degrading the unity of our faith by allowing a disagreement such as this to hinder our beliefs?

If there was no one to speak out against deviation, then Islam would have already vanished from this planet.

Not necessarily. Islam is the last and true faith (at least, according to us Muslims wink )
And Muhammad(saw) brought forth many revolutionary concepts to the Middle-East, which eventually spread around the world.
It was founded in the 7th century. Now I ask you, what else was going on in the world? The Roman Empire collapsed, burning of the Library of Alexandria [642], there was great political ferment in the
Byzantine Empire, and the
dimmest of the Dark Ages of Christian Europe were forth in the world.

People were in loss, without a strong faith, or an oppressive one in place of true justice and piece. There was chaos and great darkness.

And then Allah (swt) chose a very special man.

These breaks, divisions within the faith, are because of man's faults. Islam, was founded by Muhammad (saw) was a man guided by the words of Allah (swt). A religion founded by man, an imperfect one...is bound to have mistakes. And as our Prophet (saw) was, indeed a very special and holy man...he is not Allah (swt). And that is where our faults lie, the mistakes in our faith, because an imperfect man took the perfect words of Allah (swt) and taught it to the imperfect world. He did as best as humanly possible with all the limitations bestowed upon mankind. Quite frankly, I think he did a fantastic job. Divisions of faith are man-made, and can only be justified by Allah (swt).

And indeed, if this is the true path, then it will not disappear, InshAllah....
 

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

I never said it would disappear; I never even entertained the possibility.

However, Islam only survived to this day because of people exposing deviation so that the religion doesn't collapse from within the Ummah. Look at the Christians, and what happened to their religion just because some deviated sects were not stopped in their tracks.


Allah says in the Qur'an: "Let there be among you a community who enjoin good and forbid evil; it is they that shall be successful. [3:104]

The famous scholar, Ahmed ibn Hanbal was approached by some people who were uncomfortable criticizing deviants. He said, "If I remained silent, how would the ignorant masses know truth from falsehood?"  

[The Dead Terrorist Achmed]

[ Absolut Terror ]

I never said it would disappear; I never even entertained the possibility.

However, Islam only survived to this day because of people exposing deviation so that the religion doesn't collapse from within the Ummah. Look at the Christians, and what happened to their religion just because some deviated sects were not stopped in their tracks.


Allah says in the Qur'an: "Let there be among you a community who enjoin good and forbid evil; it is they that shall be successful. [3:104]

The famous scholar, Ahmed ibn Hanbal was approached by some people who were uncomfortable criticizing deviants. He said, "If I remained silent, how would the ignorant masses know truth from falsehood?"

As kasmir has said before, who is to determine what is good and evil in following the true path to Allah (swt)?

Being oppressive to what is considered "wrong" and "deviant" by a group of individuals does not work well. It causes unnecessary bloodshed than just letting Allah (swt) deal with it. The Catholics [mind you I went to an all-boys Catholic school, so I've learned quite a bit about the Church history] tried to violently suppress the Protestants and the Protestants vice versa. That does not seem like justice to me. Even if we are not stabbing each other in the throat *cough*iraq*cough*, ridiculing and spreading lies about the other sect [insert certain person's name here, i do not care to point fingers] is just as painful and demonic.

What one person perceives as deviant is different than another's. I have argued this with Ratri before, that truth is subjective. What you may perceive to be good and right and not haram, is true for you, but it may be absolutely appealing to someone else, perhaps of a different belief system. Heck the person may even be Muslim.

The Sunnis think they're on the right path. The Shi'a think they're on the right path. To what? To truth, everlasting peace and joy, to Allah. So do the Hindus, so do Christians, so do Jews and Mormans and all sorts of religious folk, both strange and benign. Even Buddhists, who are atheistic in nature, have a goal to strive to. To break free of the sins of this world that hamper down and rob us of our life's joys. Every person that is religious and God/gods fearing thinks they're on the right path to Allah (swt). These religions are proof that Allah exists everywhere! They are worshipping Allah in their own way, the truth that they believe and live by!

Allah is everywhere is he not?

Allah is the Light [2996] of the heavens and the earth,[2997]
The parable of His Light is as if there were a niche,
And within it a Lamp: The Lamp enclosed in Glass;[2998]
The glass as it were a brilliant star;[2999]
Lit from a blessed Tree,[3000]
An Olive, neither of the East nor of the West,[3001]
Whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it;[3002]
Light upon Light!
Allah doth set forth parables for men: and Allah doth know all things.

surah 24:35 Al Nur (The Light)
(Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, 1989.)