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 Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:27 pm
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Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:43 am
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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:04 am
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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:20 pm
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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:02 pm
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0ceanBlue Onicept 0ceanBlue  I've seen all three.
Watch Air. Matoko's story is sad, but Air is probably twice as sad.
Actually, the reason Kanon seems more in-depth is that a lot of Clannad's arcs is that half of Clannad's character's arcs require that Tomoya start dating, and that won't work if they want a primarily-Nagisa storyline. In Kanon, they didn't have that problem.
Shiori is my favorite Kanon girl. ^__^ *Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
My favorite Kanon girl has got to be Mai so far. She's just so awesome.
I also like how everyone's (except for Makoto's) Arcs seem to lap over each other.
Due to Yuuichi's wandering around, he can see many people in one episode.
...at least you have influence. *Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
Well, nearly all the girls that have become close to Yuuichi have had something happen to them.
Makoto died, Mai had to go to hospital and Shiori seems to be dead, and right now Ayu has disappeared *is on episode 20*.
But they do overlap each other more than in Clannad, because in Clannad we see none of the other characters till their respective Arcs begin, yet people like Mai and Shiori appear and constantly appear from the very beginning, still making progress with Yuuichi.
...at least you have influence. |
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:36 am
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:13 pm
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:33 pm
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:11 pm
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Onicept 0ceanBlue Onicept 0ceanBlue I've seen all three.
Watch Air. Matoko's story is sad, but Air is probably twice as sad.
Actually, the reason Kanon seems more in-depth is that a lot of Clannad's arcs is that half of Clannad's character's arcs require that Tomoya start dating, and that won't work if they want a primarily-Nagisa storyline. In Kanon, they didn't have that problem.
Shiori is my favorite Kanon girl. ^__^ *Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
My favorite Kanon girl has got to be Mai so far. She's just so awesome.
I also like how everyone's (except for Makoto's) Arcs seem to lap over each other.
Due to Yuuichi's wandering around, he can see many people in one episode.
...at least you have influence. *Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
Well, nearly all the girls that have become close to Yuuichi have had something happen to them.
Makoto died, Mai had to go to hospital and Shiori seems to be dead, and right now Ayu has disappeared *is on episode 20*.
But they do overlap each other more than in Clannad, because in Clannad we see none of the other characters till their respective Arcs begin, yet people like Mai and Shiori appear and constantly appear from the very beginning, still making progress with Yuuichi.
...at least you have influence.
I think I'll keep my points on Kanon aside until you finish Kanon. But the most glaring counterpoint is obviously Nayuki.
Anyways, I'd have to disagree with you about Clannad. Every character is introduced by episode three and therefore, your idea about, "we see none of the other characters till their respective Arcs begin" isn't true.
I made a mistake in my wording. I said arcs, but I just meant the character interaction in general. Although the fact that character's arcs don't overlap as much [Nagisa's arc is apparent through the whole series, and Tomoyo's and Kyou/Ryou's arcs overlap] is probably more-or-less true, Clannad has a much higher degree of character interaction during the arcs. It's less apparent with Fuko's arc [But not really. Nagisa, Tomoyo, Kotomi, Ryou, and Kyou appear in her arc, which is before their arcs. Nagisa plays a strong part in her arc. Tomoyo, Ryou, and Kyou are all involved in the struggle to remember her], it's not as much with the others.
Nagisa's arc is basically the whole season. Even at the end, Tomoyo [not as much], Ryou, Kotomi, and Kyou have an impact. They're her support as her friends in the Drama Club.
Tomoyo's and Kyou/Ryou's arcs are intertwined, and end at the same point [Nagisa].
Fuko makes appearances. Everywhere. Seriously.
Note the classroom scene [Even Sanae makes an appearance], the scene where everyone tries to remember, and the wedding.
Kyou, Ryou, Nagisa, and Tomoya make up the core group of friends that support Kotomi, even if it's Tomoya in the end that becomes the main focus. The idea is that all of them are there as her friends.
In fact, the least intertwined arc is Tomoyo's because it involves the history more than the present. The most intertwined arcs are Kotomi's and Nagisa's, because they both basically center around the support of friends. Kotomi's arc is the most intertwined in that regard.
Even Sunohara plays a more prominent role in Clannad than his Kanon conterpart, whose name I can't remember because he played such a small role. |
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:05 pm
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0ceanBlue Onicept 0ceanBlue Onicept 0ceanBlue I've seen all three.
Watch Air. Matoko's story is sad, but Air is probably twice as sad.
Actually, the reason Kanon seems more in-depth is that a lot of Clannad's arcs is that half of Clannad's character's arcs require that Tomoya start dating, and that won't work if they want a primarily-Nagisa storyline. In Kanon, they didn't have that problem.
Shiori is my favorite Kanon girl. ^__^ *Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
My favorite Kanon girl has got to be Mai so far. She's just so awesome.
I also like how everyone's (except for Makoto's) Arcs seem to lap over each other.
Due to Yuuichi's wandering around, he can see many people in one episode.
...at least you have influence. *Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
Well, nearly all the girls that have become close to Yuuichi have had something happen to them.
Makoto died, Mai had to go to hospital and Shiori seems to be dead, and right now Ayu has disappeared *is on episode 20*.
But they do overlap each other more than in Clannad, because in Clannad we see none of the other characters till their respective Arcs begin, yet people like Mai and Shiori appear and constantly appear from the very beginning, still making progress with Yuuichi.
...at least you have influence.
Anyways, I'd have to disagree with you about Clannad. Every character is introduced by episode three and therefore, your idea about, "we see none of the other characters till their respective Arcs begin" isn't true.
I made a mistake in my wording. I said arcs, but I just meant the character interaction in general. Although the fact that character's arcs don't overlap as much [Nagisa's arc is apparent through the whole series, and Tomoyo's and Kyou/Ryou's arcs overlap] is probably more-or-less true, Clannad has a much higher degree of character interaction during the arcs. It's less apparent with Fuko's arc [But not really. Nagisa, Tomoyo, Kotomi, Ryou, and Kyou appear in her arc, which is before their arcs. Nagisa plays a strong part in her arc. Tomoyo, Ryou, and Kyou are all involved in the struggle to remember her], it's not as much with the others.
Nagisa's arc is basically the whole season. Even at the end, Tomoyo [not as much], Ryou, Kotomi, and Kyou have an impact. They're her support as her friends in the Drama Club.
Tomoyo's and Kyou/Ryou's arcs are intertwined, and end at the same point [Nagisa].
Fuko makes appearances. Everywhere. Seriously.
Note the classroom scene [Even Sanae makes an appearance], the scene where everyone tries to remember, and the wedding.
Kyou, Ryou, Nagisa, and Tomoya make up the core group of friends that support Kotomi, even if it's Tomoya in the end that becomes the main focus. The idea is that all of them are there as her friends.
In fact, the least intertwined arc is Tomoyo's because it involves the history more than the present. The most intertwined arcs are Kotomi's and Nagisa's, because they both basically center around the support of friends. Kotomi's arc is the most intertwined in that regard.
Even Sunohara plays a more prominent role in Clannad than his Kanon conterpart, whose name I can't remember because he played such a small role.*Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
I have finished Kanon now, but I will have to disagree with you though.
Kitagawa (Sunohara's counter part) did play a smaller role, but everything he did had a bigger impact on what happened.
More or less, all the girls in Kanon were NOT friends. The only thing that drew them together and had them meet was Yuuichi.
Until episode 24, most of the girls had still not met each other. More or less, their stories were also deeper than those of Clannad.
Most of Clannad is spent with the whole "Who's gonna get the guy" idea. Tomoya is pretty anti-social, as well. Whereas Yuuichi is very social, even making the Yuki-like Mai social (yes, in episode 24 I face palmed).
Fuko, unlike Makoto, has got to the point of annoyance. Once Makoto was gone, she was gone. She was still remembered, and still brought up in the story as well, but she didn't have to pop up to make her presence, more or less ruining the mood. Then there is the fact Fuko is like a poor combination of Ayu and Makoto.
Ayu is short, was in a coma and in hospital. Makoto was a fox girl, who held traits of the real older Makoto, yet she was a miracle who disappeared till episode 23 or so.
I really do think Kanon was a lot more solid, as its main focus was memories and miracles, and the plot was already pretty deep in the first episode.
...at least you have influence. |
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Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:44 pm
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Onicept 0ceanBlue Onicept 0ceanBlue Onicept 0ceanBlue I've seen all three.
Watch Air. Matoko's story is sad, but Air is probably twice as sad.
Actually, the reason Kanon seems more in-depth is that a lot of Clannad's arcs is that half of Clannad's character's arcs require that Tomoya start dating, and that won't work if they want a primarily-Nagisa storyline. In Kanon, they didn't have that problem.
Shiori is my favorite Kanon girl. ^__^ *Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
My favorite Kanon girl has got to be Mai so far. She's just so awesome.
I also like how everyone's (except for Makoto's) Arcs seem to lap over each other.
Due to Yuuichi's wandering around, he can see many people in one episode.
...at least you have influence. *Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
Well, nearly all the girls that have become close to Yuuichi have had something happen to them.
Makoto died, Mai had to go to hospital and Shiori seems to be dead, and right now Ayu has disappeared *is on episode 20*.
But they do overlap each other more than in Clannad, because in Clannad we see none of the other characters till their respective Arcs begin, yet people like Mai and Shiori appear and constantly appear from the very beginning, still making progress with Yuuichi.
...at least you have influence.
Anyways, I'd have to disagree with you about Clannad. Every character is introduced by episode three and therefore, your idea about, "we see none of the other characters till their respective Arcs begin" isn't true.
I made a mistake in my wording. I said arcs, but I just meant the character interaction in general. Although the fact that character's arcs don't overlap as much [Nagisa's arc is apparent through the whole series, and Tomoyo's and Kyou/Ryou's arcs overlap] is probably more-or-less true, Clannad has a much higher degree of character interaction during the arcs. It's less apparent with Fuko's arc [But not really. Nagisa, Tomoyo, Kotomi, Ryou, and Kyou appear in her arc, which is before their arcs. Nagisa plays a strong part in her arc. Tomoyo, Ryou, and Kyou are all involved in the struggle to remember her], it's not as much with the others.
Nagisa's arc is basically the whole season. Even at the end, Tomoyo [not as much], Ryou, Kotomi, and Kyou have an impact. They're her support as her friends in the Drama Club.
Tomoyo's and Kyou/Ryou's arcs are intertwined, and end at the same point [Nagisa].
Fuko makes appearances. Everywhere. Seriously.
Note the classroom scene [Even Sanae makes an appearance], the scene where everyone tries to remember, and the wedding.
Kyou, Ryou, Nagisa, and Tomoya make up the core group of friends that support Kotomi, even if it's Tomoya in the end that becomes the main focus. The idea is that all of them are there as her friends.
In fact, the least intertwined arc is Tomoyo's because it involves the history more than the present. The most intertwined arcs are Kotomi's and Nagisa's, because they both basically center around the support of friends. Kotomi's arc is the most intertwined in that regard.
Even Sunohara plays a more prominent role in Clannad than his Kanon conterpart, whose name I can't remember because he played such a small role.*Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
I have finished Kanon now, but I will have to disagree with you though.
Kitagawa (Sunohara's counter part) did play a smaller role, but everything he did had a bigger impact on what happened.
More or less, all the girls in Kanon were NOT friends. The only thing that drew them together and had them meet was Yuuichi.
Until episode 24, most of the girls had still not met each other. More or less, their stories were also deeper than those of Clannad.
Most of Clannad is spent with the whole "Who's gonna get the guy" idea. Tomoya is pretty anti-social, as well. Whereas Yuuichi is very social, even making the Yuki-like Mai social (yes, in episode 24 I face palmed).
Fuko, unlike Makoto, has got to the point of annoyance. Once Makoto was gone, she was gone. She was still remembered, and still brought up in the story as well, but she didn't have to pop up to make her presence, more or less ruining the mood. Then there is the fact Fuko is like a poor combination of Ayu and Makoto.
Ayu is short, was in a coma and in hospital. Makoto was a fox girl, who held traits of the real older Makoto, yet she was a miracle who disappeared till episode 23 or so.
I really do think Kanon was a lot more solid, as its main focus was memories and miracles, and the plot was already pretty deep in the first episode.
...at least you have influence.
Actually, Sunohara has just as strong an impact in the Fuko arc as Kitagawa does in the Shiori arc. Also, Sunohara has an impact in Nagisa's arc, as illustrated in the last episode. I would say that Sunohara's impact in Nagisa's arc was much stronger than Kitagawa's impact in Nayuki's arc.
As to the reason why the Kanon girls aren't as tightly intertwined as the Clannad girls, I'll explain later. It has to do with the theme of both visual novels.
To be honest, only Kyou's arc had a feel of the, "Who was going to get the guy?" theme [although Tomoyo's arc portrayed undertones]. In many of the arcs [Nagisa, Fuko, Kyou, and partially Tomoyo], a theme was family. In some of the arcs [Nagisa, Kotomi, Fuko], friendship was a strong theme. There's no evidence that Fuko or Kotomi had any romantic ideas about Tomoya. In fact, Kanon and Clannad have an equal number of girls that could be considered romantically attracted to the protagonist.
Kanon:
+3 Romantic [Nayuki, Ayu, and Shiori]
+2 Not Romantic [Mai and Makoto]
Ignoring the comment Makoto makes about marrying Yuuichi, since it's obvious that it's motivated by her desire for them to be together rather than any sort of romantic interest.
Clannad:
+3 Romantic [Kyou, Tomoyo, and Nagisa]
+2 Not Romantic [Fuko and Kotomi]
As for your comment about Kanon's stories being 'deeper', it's a matter of personal opinion. I only feel that Makoto's and Shiori's stories were deep. The problem with intertwining is that, in the case of Ayu and Nayuki, sometimes characters get glossed over [Nayuki's arc doesn't make as strong of an impact because it's overshadowed by Ayu's arc].
In the regard for characters getting glossed over, I will concede that Tomoyo's and Kyou's arcs were glossed over. It's due to the fact that Tomoyo's and Kyou's arcs involve the two dating Tomoya, which was out of the question considering the main path of the anime. I believe that the tennis match in Clannad was a KyoAni original scene, instead of a Key/VisualArts visual novel scene.
I do have to admit, Fuko's appearances are annoying, but they served to show that she wasn't gone, unlike Makoto. I just wish the appearances were done in a less annoying way. That being said, the fact that you don't like a character ["Then there is the fact Fuko is like a poor combination of Ayu and Makoto. "] doesn't mean anything. Plenty of people in A.Suki have expressed that they enjoyed Fuko's interruptions and saw reason for them because they liked her character.
You also missed the theme of Clannad. Clannad as a whole is family-themed [thus, the name], while Nagisa's arc in particular had the themes of hopes and dreams. The idea of Clannad is the bonds of family and friends; that's why there's a much higher amount of interaction between the characters of Clannad, where the theme itself expresses a need for the interaction, than the characters of Kanon, where only Yuuichi is the miracle-worker.
I personally think that Kanon was more solid in some ways, but Clannad was more solid in some ways. In my opinion, the theme of family in Clannad is more reinforced than the theme of miracles in Kanon [I felt that the theme of memories was more of a plot-device rather than a theme], but Kanon is closed much more efficiently than Clannad [a fault of KyoAni, Clannad had much more material than could have been fit in 22 episodes with every arc; they had to make really strong sacrifices, I heard]. |
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Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:05 pm
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0ceanBlue Onicept 0ceanBlue Onicept 0ceanBlue Actually, they "seem" to overlap each other, but Clannad's arcs were much more intertwined than Kanon's arcs. An actual complaint people have had is that the other characters disappeared during other character's arcs. *Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
Well, nearly all the girls that have become close to Yuuichi have had something happen to them.
Makoto died, Mai had to go to hospital and Shiori seems to be dead, and right now Ayu has disappeared *is on episode 20*.
But they do overlap each other more than in Clannad, because in Clannad we see none of the other characters till their respective Arcs begin, yet people like Mai and Shiori appear and constantly appear from the very beginning, still making progress with Yuuichi.
...at least you have influence.
Anyways, I'd have to disagree with you about Clannad. Every character is introduced by episode three and therefore, your idea about, "we see none of the other characters till their respective Arcs begin" isn't true.
I made a mistake in my wording. I said arcs, but I just meant the character interaction in general. Although the fact that character's arcs don't overlap as much [Nagisa's arc is apparent through the whole series, and Tomoyo's and Kyou/Ryou's arcs overlap] is probably more-or-less true, Clannad has a much higher degree of character interaction during the arcs. It's less apparent with Fuko's arc [But not really. Nagisa, Tomoyo, Kotomi, Ryou, and Kyou appear in her arc, which is before their arcs. Nagisa plays a strong part in her arc. Tomoyo, Ryou, and Kyou are all involved in the struggle to remember her], it's not as much with the others.
Nagisa's arc is basically the whole season. Even at the end, Tomoyo [not as much], Ryou, Kotomi, and Kyou have an impact. They're her support as her friends in the Drama Club.
Tomoyo's and Kyou/Ryou's arcs are intertwined, and end at the same point [Nagisa].
Fuko makes appearances. Everywhere. Seriously.
Note the classroom scene [Even Sanae makes an appearance], the scene where everyone tries to remember, and the wedding.
Kyou, Ryou, Nagisa, and Tomoya make up the core group of friends that support Kotomi, even if it's Tomoya in the end that becomes the main focus. The idea is that all of them are there as her friends.
In fact, the least intertwined arc is Tomoyo's because it involves the history more than the present. The most intertwined arcs are Kotomi's and Nagisa's, because they both basically center around the support of friends. Kotomi's arc is the most intertwined in that regard.
Even Sunohara plays a more prominent role in Clannad than his Kanon conterpart, whose name I can't remember because he played such a small role.*Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
I have finished Kanon now, but I will have to disagree with you though.
Kitagawa (Sunohara's counter part) did play a smaller role, but everything he did had a bigger impact on what happened.
More or less, all the girls in Kanon were NOT friends. The only thing that drew them together and had them meet was Yuuichi.
Until episode 24, most of the girls had still not met each other. More or less, their stories were also deeper than those of Clannad.
Most of Clannad is spent with the whole "Who's gonna get the guy" idea. Tomoya is pretty anti-social, as well. Whereas Yuuichi is very social, even making the Yuki-like Mai social (yes, in episode 24 I face palmed).
Fuko, unlike Makoto, has got to the point of annoyance. Once Makoto was gone, she was gone. She was still remembered, and still brought up in the story as well, but she didn't have to pop up to make her presence, more or less ruining the mood. Then there is the fact Fuko is like a poor combination of Ayu and Makoto.
Ayu is short, was in a coma and in hospital. Makoto was a fox girl, who held traits of the real older Makoto, yet she was a miracle who disappeared till episode 23 or so.
I really do think Kanon was a lot more solid, as its main focus was memories and miracles, and the plot was already pretty deep in the first episode.
...at least you have influence.
As to the reason why the Kanon girls aren't as tightly intertwined as the Clannad girls, I'll explain later. It has to do with the theme of both visual novels.
To be honest, only Kyou's arc had a feel of the, "Who was going to get the guy?" theme [although Tomoyo's arc portrayed undertones]. In many of the arcs [Nagisa, Fuko, Kyou, and partially Tomoyo], a theme was family. In some of the arcs [Nagisa, Kotomi, Fuko], friendship was a strong theme. There's no evidence that Fuko or Kotomi had any romantic ideas about Tomoya. In fact, Kanon and Clannad have an equal number of girls that could be considered romantically attracted to the protagonist.
Kanon:
+3 Romantic [Nayuki, Ayu, and Shiori]
+2 Not Romantic [Mai and Makoto]
Ignoring the comment Makoto makes about marrying Yuuichi, since it's obvious that it's motivated by her desire for them to be together rather than any sort of romantic interest.
Clannad:
+3 Romantic [Kyou, Tomoyo, and Nagisa]
+2 Not Romantic [Fuko and Kotomi]
As for your comment about Kanon's stories being 'deeper', it's a matter of personal opinion. I only feel that Makoto's and Shiori's stories were deep. The problem with intertwining is that, in the case of Ayu and Nayuki, sometimes characters get glossed over [Nayuki's arc doesn't make as strong of an impact because it's overshadowed by Ayu's arc].
In the regard for characters getting glossed over, I will concede that Tomoyo's and Kyou's arcs were glossed over. It's due to the fact that Tomoyo's and Kyou's arcs involve the two dating Tomoya, which was out of the question considering the main path of the anime. I believe that the tennis match in Clannad was a KyoAni original scene, instead of a Key/VisualArts visual novel scene.
I do have to admit, Fuko's appearances are annoying, but they served to show that she wasn't gone, unlike Makoto. I just wish the appearances were done in a less annoying way. That being said, the fact that you don't like a character ["Then there is the fact Fuko is like a poor combination of Ayu and Makoto. "] doesn't mean anything. Plenty of people in A.Suki have expressed that they enjoyed Fuko's interruptions and saw reason for them because they liked her character.
You also missed the theme of Clannad. Clannad as a whole is family-themed [thus, the name], while Nagisa's arc in particular had the themes of hopes and dreams. The idea of Clannad is the bonds of family and friends; that's why there's a much higher amount of interaction between the characters of Clannad, where the theme itself expresses a need for the interaction, than the characters of Kanon, where only Yuuichi is the miracle-worker.
I personally think that Kanon was more solid in some ways, but Clannad was more solid in some ways. In my opinion, the theme of family in Clannad is more reinforced than the theme of miracles in Kanon [I felt that the theme of memories was more of a plot-device rather than a theme], but Kanon is closed much more efficiently than Clannad [a fault of KyoAni, Clannad had much more material than could have been fit in 22 episodes with every arc; they had to make really strong sacrifices, I heard].*Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
I never said I didn't like Fuko, I just feel that is where her character was derived from.
The thing about Yuuichi being the miracle maker was more to the fact he tied everyone together, due to the fact he had been to the town many times before. With the whole shutting out of memories and the such.
But there is one main point we are forgetting.
Kanon is a Mystery/Romance style story, whereas Clannad is a Comedy/Romance style story.
...at least you have influence. |
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Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:21 pm
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Onicept 0ceanBlue Onicept 0ceanBlue Onicept 0ceanBlue Actually, they "seem" to overlap each other, but Clannad's arcs were much more intertwined than Kanon's arcs. An actual complaint people have had is that the other characters disappeared during other character's arcs. *Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
Well, nearly all the girls that have become close to Yuuichi have had something happen to them.
Makoto died, Mai had to go to hospital and Shiori seems to be dead, and right now Ayu has disappeared *is on episode 20*.
But they do overlap each other more than in Clannad, because in Clannad we see none of the other characters till their respective Arcs begin, yet people like Mai and Shiori appear and constantly appear from the very beginning, still making progress with Yuuichi.
...at least you have influence.
Anyways, I'd have to disagree with you about Clannad. Every character is introduced by episode three and therefore, your idea about, "we see none of the other characters till their respective Arcs begin" isn't true.
I made a mistake in my wording. I said arcs, but I just meant the character interaction in general. Although the fact that character's arcs don't overlap as much [Nagisa's arc is apparent through the whole series, and Tomoyo's and Kyou/Ryou's arcs overlap] is probably more-or-less true, Clannad has a much higher degree of character interaction during the arcs. It's less apparent with Fuko's arc [But not really. Nagisa, Tomoyo, Kotomi, Ryou, and Kyou appear in her arc, which is before their arcs. Nagisa plays a strong part in her arc. Tomoyo, Ryou, and Kyou are all involved in the struggle to remember her], it's not as much with the others.
Nagisa's arc is basically the whole season. Even at the end, Tomoyo [not as much], Ryou, Kotomi, and Kyou have an impact. They're her support as her friends in the Drama Club.
Tomoyo's and Kyou/Ryou's arcs are intertwined, and end at the same point [Nagisa].
Fuko makes appearances. Everywhere. Seriously.
Note the classroom scene [Even Sanae makes an appearance], the scene where everyone tries to remember, and the wedding.
Kyou, Ryou, Nagisa, and Tomoya make up the core group of friends that support Kotomi, even if it's Tomoya in the end that becomes the main focus. The idea is that all of them are there as her friends.
In fact, the least intertwined arc is Tomoyo's because it involves the history more than the present. The most intertwined arcs are Kotomi's and Nagisa's, because they both basically center around the support of friends. Kotomi's arc is the most intertwined in that regard.
Even Sunohara plays a more prominent role in Clannad than his Kanon conterpart, whose name I can't remember because he played such a small role.*Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
I have finished Kanon now, but I will have to disagree with you though.
Kitagawa (Sunohara's counter part) did play a smaller role, but everything he did had a bigger impact on what happened.
More or less, all the girls in Kanon were NOT friends. The only thing that drew them together and had them meet was Yuuichi.
Until episode 24, most of the girls had still not met each other. More or less, their stories were also deeper than those of Clannad.
Most of Clannad is spent with the whole "Who's gonna get the guy" idea. Tomoya is pretty anti-social, as well. Whereas Yuuichi is very social, even making the Yuki-like Mai social (yes, in episode 24 I face palmed).
Fuko, unlike Makoto, has got to the point of annoyance. Once Makoto was gone, she was gone. She was still remembered, and still brought up in the story as well, but she didn't have to pop up to make her presence, more or less ruining the mood. Then there is the fact Fuko is like a poor combination of Ayu and Makoto.
Ayu is short, was in a coma and in hospital. Makoto was a fox girl, who held traits of the real older Makoto, yet she was a miracle who disappeared till episode 23 or so.
I really do think Kanon was a lot more solid, as its main focus was memories and miracles, and the plot was already pretty deep in the first episode.
...at least you have influence.
As to the reason why the Kanon girls aren't as tightly intertwined as the Clannad girls, I'll explain later. It has to do with the theme of both visual novels.
To be honest, only Kyou's arc had a feel of the, "Who was going to get the guy?" theme [although Tomoyo's arc portrayed undertones]. In many of the arcs [Nagisa, Fuko, Kyou, and partially Tomoyo], a theme was family. In some of the arcs [Nagisa, Kotomi, Fuko], friendship was a strong theme. There's no evidence that Fuko or Kotomi had any romantic ideas about Tomoya. In fact, Kanon and Clannad have an equal number of girls that could be considered romantically attracted to the protagonist.
Kanon:
+3 Romantic [Nayuki, Ayu, and Shiori]
+2 Not Romantic [Mai and Makoto]
Ignoring the comment Makoto makes about marrying Yuuichi, since it's obvious that it's motivated by her desire for them to be together rather than any sort of romantic interest.
Clannad:
+3 Romantic [Kyou, Tomoyo, and Nagisa]
+2 Not Romantic [Fuko and Kotomi]
As for your comment about Kanon's stories being 'deeper', it's a matter of personal opinion. I only feel that Makoto's and Shiori's stories were deep. The problem with intertwining is that, in the case of Ayu and Nayuki, sometimes characters get glossed over [Nayuki's arc doesn't make as strong of an impact because it's overshadowed by Ayu's arc].
In the regard for characters getting glossed over, I will concede that Tomoyo's and Kyou's arcs were glossed over. It's due to the fact that Tomoyo's and Kyou's arcs involve the two dating Tomoya, which was out of the question considering the main path of the anime. I believe that the tennis match in Clannad was a KyoAni original scene, instead of a Key/VisualArts visual novel scene.
I do have to admit, Fuko's appearances are annoying, but they served to show that she wasn't gone, unlike Makoto. I just wish the appearances were done in a less annoying way. That being said, the fact that you don't like a character ["Then there is the fact Fuko is like a poor combination of Ayu and Makoto. "] doesn't mean anything. Plenty of people in A.Suki have expressed that they enjoyed Fuko's interruptions and saw reason for them because they liked her character.
You also missed the theme of Clannad. Clannad as a whole is family-themed [thus, the name], while Nagisa's arc in particular had the themes of hopes and dreams. The idea of Clannad is the bonds of family and friends; that's why there's a much higher amount of interaction between the characters of Clannad, where the theme itself expresses a need for the interaction, than the characters of Kanon, where only Yuuichi is the miracle-worker.
I personally think that Kanon was more solid in some ways, but Clannad was more solid in some ways. In my opinion, the theme of family in Clannad is more reinforced than the theme of miracles in Kanon [I felt that the theme of memories was more of a plot-device rather than a theme], but Kanon is closed much more efficiently than Clannad [a fault of KyoAni, Clannad had much more material than could have been fit in 22 episodes with every arc; they had to make really strong sacrifices, I heard].*Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
I never said I didn't like Fuko, I just feel that is where her character was derived from.
The thing about Yuuichi being the miracle maker was more to the fact he tied everyone together, due to the fact he had been to the town many times before. With the whole shutting out of memories and the such.
But there is one main point we are forgetting.
Kanon is a Mystery/Romance style story, whereas Clannad is a Comedy/Romance style story.
...at least you have influence.
Wow....
Overall, my two argument posts have a total word count of 940.
Why can't I do this for homework?!
You know....
Just because a character is similar to another [or two] doesn't mean they're derived from them. It's just as likely that they exaggerated on people's traits that they see everyday.
I guess that's true, but it doesn't seem like a theme. To me, it seems like a something that came as a result, rather than something that happened.
That's true. They're different things. |
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Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:38 pm
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0ceanBlue Onicept 0ceanBlue Onicept 0ceanBlue I think I'll keep my points on Kanon aside until you finish Kanon. But the most glaring counterpoint is obviously Nayuki.
Anyways, I'd have to disagree with you about Clannad. Every character is introduced by episode three and therefore, your idea about, "we see none of the other characters till their respective Arcs begin" isn't true.
I made a mistake in my wording. I said arcs, but I just meant the character interaction in general. Although the fact that character's arcs don't overlap as much [Nagisa's arc is apparent through the whole series, and Tomoyo's and Kyou/Ryou's arcs overlap] is probably more-or-less true, Clannad has a much higher degree of character interaction during the arcs. It's less apparent with Fuko's arc [But not really. Nagisa, Tomoyo, Kotomi, Ryou, and Kyou appear in her arc, which is before their arcs. Nagisa plays a strong part in her arc. Tomoyo, Ryou, and Kyou are all involved in the struggle to remember her], it's not as much with the others.
Nagisa's arc is basically the whole season. Even at the end, Tomoyo [not as much], Ryou, Kotomi, and Kyou have an impact. They're her support as her friends in the Drama Club.
Tomoyo's and Kyou/Ryou's arcs are intertwined, and end at the same point [Nagisa].
Fuko makes appearances. Everywhere. Seriously.
Note the classroom scene [Even Sanae makes an appearance], the scene where everyone tries to remember, and the wedding.
Kyou, Ryou, Nagisa, and Tomoya make up the core group of friends that support Kotomi, even if it's Tomoya in the end that becomes the main focus. The idea is that all of them are there as her friends.
In fact, the least intertwined arc is Tomoyo's because it involves the history more than the present. The most intertwined arcs are Kotomi's and Nagisa's, because they both basically center around the support of friends. Kotomi's arc is the most intertwined in that regard.
Even Sunohara plays a more prominent role in Clannad than his Kanon conterpart, whose name I can't remember because he played such a small role. *Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
I have finished Kanon now, but I will have to disagree with you though.
Kitagawa (Sunohara's counter part) did play a smaller role, but everything he did had a bigger impact on what happened.
More or less, all the girls in Kanon were NOT friends. The only thing that drew them together and had them meet was Yuuichi.
Until episode 24, most of the girls had still not met each other. More or less, their stories were also deeper than those of Clannad.
Most of Clannad is spent with the whole "Who's gonna get the guy" idea. Tomoya is pretty anti-social, as well. Whereas Yuuichi is very social, even making the Yuki-like Mai social (yes, in episode 24 I face palmed).
Fuko, unlike Makoto, has got to the point of annoyance. Once Makoto was gone, she was gone. She was still remembered, and still brought up in the story as well, but she didn't have to pop up to make her presence, more or less ruining the mood. Then there is the fact Fuko is like a poor combination of Ayu and Makoto.
Ayu is short, was in a coma and in hospital. Makoto was a fox girl, who held traits of the real older Makoto, yet she was a miracle who disappeared till episode 23 or so.
I really do think Kanon was a lot more solid, as its main focus was memories and miracles, and the plot was already pretty deep in the first episode.
...at least you have influence.
As to the reason why the Kanon girls aren't as tightly intertwined as the Clannad girls, I'll explain later. It has to do with the theme of both visual novels.
To be honest, only Kyou's arc had a feel of the, "Who was going to get the guy?" theme [although Tomoyo's arc portrayed undertones]. In many of the arcs [Nagisa, Fuko, Kyou, and partially Tomoyo], a theme was family. In some of the arcs [Nagisa, Kotomi, Fuko], friendship was a strong theme. There's no evidence that Fuko or Kotomi had any romantic ideas about Tomoya. In fact, Kanon and Clannad have an equal number of girls that could be considered romantically attracted to the protagonist.
Kanon:
+3 Romantic [Nayuki, Ayu, and Shiori]
+2 Not Romantic [Mai and Makoto]
Ignoring the comment Makoto makes about marrying Yuuichi, since it's obvious that it's motivated by her desire for them to be together rather than any sort of romantic interest.
Clannad:
+3 Romantic [Kyou, Tomoyo, and Nagisa]
+2 Not Romantic [Fuko and Kotomi]
As for your comment about Kanon's stories being 'deeper', it's a matter of personal opinion. I only feel that Makoto's and Shiori's stories were deep. The problem with intertwining is that, in the case of Ayu and Nayuki, sometimes characters get glossed over [Nayuki's arc doesn't make as strong of an impact because it's overshadowed by Ayu's arc].
In the regard for characters getting glossed over, I will concede that Tomoyo's and Kyou's arcs were glossed over. It's due to the fact that Tomoyo's and Kyou's arcs involve the two dating Tomoya, which was out of the question considering the main path of the anime. I believe that the tennis match in Clannad was a KyoAni original scene, instead of a Key/VisualArts visual novel scene.
I do have to admit, Fuko's appearances are annoying, but they served to show that she wasn't gone, unlike Makoto. I just wish the appearances were done in a less annoying way. That being said, the fact that you don't like a character ["Then there is the fact Fuko is like a poor combination of Ayu and Makoto. "] doesn't mean anything. Plenty of people in A.Suki have expressed that they enjoyed Fuko's interruptions and saw reason for them because they liked her character.
You also missed the theme of Clannad. Clannad as a whole is family-themed [thus, the name], while Nagisa's arc in particular had the themes of hopes and dreams. The idea of Clannad is the bonds of family and friends; that's why there's a much higher amount of interaction between the characters of Clannad, where the theme itself expresses a need for the interaction, than the characters of Kanon, where only Yuuichi is the miracle-worker.
I personally think that Kanon was more solid in some ways, but Clannad was more solid in some ways. In my opinion, the theme of family in Clannad is more reinforced than the theme of miracles in Kanon [I felt that the theme of memories was more of a plot-device rather than a theme], but Kanon is closed much more efficiently than Clannad [a fault of KyoAni, Clannad had much more material than could have been fit in 22 episodes with every arc; they had to make really strong sacrifices, I heard].*Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
I never said I didn't like Fuko, I just feel that is where her character was derived from.
The thing about Yuuichi being the miracle maker was more to the fact he tied everyone together, due to the fact he had been to the town many times before. With the whole shutting out of memories and the such.
But there is one main point we are forgetting.
Kanon is a Mystery/Romance style story, whereas Clannad is a Comedy/Romance style story.
...at least you have influence.
Overall, my two argument posts have a total word count of 940.
Why can't I do this for homework?!
You know....
Just because a character is similar to another [or two] doesn't mean they're derived from them. It's just as likely that they exaggerated on people's traits that they see everyday.
I guess that's true, but it doesn't seem like a theme. To me, it seems like a something that came as a result, rather than something that happened.
That's true. They're different things.*Pat* *Pat* *Pat*
Yeah, but both series were done by Key here. So reusing their own idea's would be pretty on the mark, everyone does it.
...at least you have influence. |
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