Demon? I need a ethnological help

[Siren Stern]

Hmm... I saw the topic about "demon help".
Well, English isn't my motherlanguage, so I may be wrong, but as far as I know, Wicca doesn't believe in devil. In Brazilian Portuguese, demon ("demônio") and devil ("diabo") has the same meaning. So I'd like to understand if this "devil" think is something that is considered in Wicca or just a kind of energy or whatever of other pagan movement.

Thanks ^_^  

[Rainbow Holocaust]

I agree. To my knowledge, there is no real devil, just negative spirits, malicious entities, and many things that could be represented with the term "demon" if you so choose.
I can almost say for sure there is no real "devil" simply because the devil is a notion developed by Christians along with their God. Its the balance of good and evil, I guess.


Edit by Mod...

Quote:

Eu concordo. A meu conhecimento, não há nenhuma diabo real, apenas espírito negativo, entidade maliciosa, e muitas coisas que poderiam ser representadas com o termo "demon" se você escolhe assim. Eu posso quase dizer que certamente não há nenhum real "devil" simplesmente porque o diabo é uma noção desenvolvida por Cristão junto com seu deus. Seu o contrapeso dos bens e o mal, eu supor.

 

[too2sweet]

Rainbow pretty much covered it. I also think it varies from person to person as to exactly what they think it is, or if they even believe in them. I personally think that they are dark energy forms/beings that have never been human. I have never encountered one that I know of and would so like to keep it that way. I have read other threads around Gaia (and elsewhere), where people would talk about trying to summon one - though it escapes me why you would really want to.

On a side note not all dark magic/energy is bad, obviously you need balance - but in this case we're talking "pitch black"...on the farthest end of the scale away from white. blaugh


And because I found this really nifty site that could translate English to Portugues (other languages as well)...

Quote:

O arco-íris cobriu-o consideravelmente muito. Eu igualmente penso varia de pessoal a respeito de exatamente o que pensam que é, ou se acreditam mesmo nele. Eu penso pessoal que são formulários/seres escuros da energia que nunca foram humanos. Eu nunca encontrei um de que eu sei e gostaria assim do manter essa maneira. Eu li outras linhas em torno de Gaia (e em outra parte), onde os povos falariam sobre a tentativa chamar um - embora escapa-me a porque você quereria realmente. Em uma nota lateral não toda a mágica/energia escuras é más, obviamente você precisa o contrapeso - mas neste caso es la extremidade a mais distante da escala longe do branco.

 

[Milendil]

I always believed that Wica did have a devil. Because in the laws, it says that any one who breaks their oaths will go to the Christian version of Hell. And doesn't that Hell have a devil?  

[Siren Stern]

Milendil

I always believed that Wica did have a devil. Because in the laws, it says that any one who breaks their oaths will go to the Christian version of Hell. And doesn't that Hell have a devil?

I'm sorry, Milendil, but in Dianic Tradition and as far as I know in all iniciatic Traditions of Wicca, it's said the only "law", basically, is that everything you do, for good or bad, you'll receive in triple in this life, so there's no after death punishments, and there's no hell as well. The hell idea requires a sin dogma, and there's no sin in Wiccan dogma. I can't talk by other pagan paths, but Wicca usually says that when we die, we go to a place called "Summerland" (some Traditions calls it "Avalon"), a place of learning, not punishment.

Maybe the Nordic/Germanic Tradition of Wicca, as they follow the Nordic Pantheon, believes in something different, but it's just a suposition. The scandinavians believed the world was divided by 9 realms, and one of them is the Niflheim, where the Goddess Hel (the English "hell" word came from her name) rules over the dead people who had an unglorious death (which means didn't died in battle). I don't know the Scandinavian Mythology enough to say for sure, but as far as I read, Hel wasn't a bad Goddess - at least not until the Nordic people got influenced by Christianism. She is the one who welcomes the persons dying of old age or sickness, and her energy was considered the human essence and the brain-food.


Regardng Too2sweet and Rainbow, thank you for the discussion. I just wanted to make clear. Although I speak English, sometimes we get through some deceptive cognate. I saw those posts about "I got a demon on my back" or something like that, and I wanted to know what they were talking about. I totally agree with you about trying to summon a bad entity. I know the reasons for being pagan are very particular, but I can't avoid asking myself which reason lies in the heart of someone who likes to work with this. What did bring them to Wicca. The love for nature? The love for the Gods? A global conscience? Or status, power, the gothic feeling of whitchcraft? Anyway...

Thank you for the words wink  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Milendil

I always believed that Wica did have a devil. Because in the laws, it says that any one who breaks their oaths will go to the Christian version of Hell. And doesn't that Hell have a devil?

You're right, Milendil, that's a part of the Laws. (Siren: in Wicca proper, there are many laws, at least 30 and in Alexandrian there are upwards of 100.) I don't personally understand it, but as far as I can work out, it means that if you break certain of those Laws and betray your coven, you're banished to the punishment place of another religion. So hell is not a part of the Wiccan religion, but they accept that the realms of other religions exist. That's how I work that one, but of course not being initiated I wouldn't know.

(Niflheim is not Helheim.)  

[too2sweet]

I know that's what the Laws say...but how can you be banished to a place that isn't part of your religious beliefs? I'm not completely sure, but I can see why some people might break their oaths - if they don't believe in Hell...what are they worried about.

Also it doesn't make complete sense that you would go to Hell, since Wicca believes that judgement good/bad comes to you in your current life (via the TFL) so it all sort of contradicts itself.

Things that make you go hummmm....  

[Siren Stern]

Hmmm, regarding on laws, one thing is the law of the Traditions and covens, other thing is the law of Wicca. The only fully accepted law to all Traditions is the Triple Law / Wiccan Rede. The other conduct laws, either to covens of Traditions, aren't obligatory, since if you don't accept one of them you can chose another path and still be a Wiccan.

About all this hell thing, I thing very closely with too2sweet. How can you be to somewhere you don't believe? Why should I expect gifts from Santa Claus, for example, if I know he doesn't exist? All I know is that there's no Hell in Wicca, since there's no Heaven either. Wiccans believe in the Summerland, where everyone, since Teresa of Calcuta to Hittler went when they were dead. There's no sense in eternal damnation with the Triple Law.

Anyway...  

[too2sweet]

When Trad Wicca was created by Gardner he put forth "The Old Laws" (also called the Ardanes). There is some debate as to if he just made them up or not, but I think some of the Traditional Wiccan covens (particularly Gardnerian), do follow at least some version of them. (hopefully a somewhat updated version, as many of these are completely irrelevant in modern times). But I agree with you that these days, most circles/covens (and solitaries) only follow the Rede and the TFL (threefold law).