Traditions?

[too2sweet]

Discuss what you know about various Wiccan, Witchcraft, or Pagan Traditions. Which ones interest you the most, and why?

 

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Well, although it's not a Traditional Wicca "tradition" by their standards, Seax Wicca interests me quite a bit. I think it's interesting how Buckland incorporated some of the things he did.

Although I am kind of puzzled as to why the God and Goddess are Odinn and Freyja. I don't imagine Frigg is too happy with that xd  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Ultraviolett1127

Well, although it's not a Traditional Wicca "tradition" by their standards, Seax Wicca interests me quite a bit. I think it's interesting how Buckland incorporated some of the things he did.

Although I am kind of puzzled as to why the God and Goddess are Odinn and Freyja. I don't imagine Frigg is too happy with that xd

Yeah, what's with that?! It's really bizarre! I mean, both Odinn and Freyja have been known to share the love around, but.... But the God/Goddess thing suggests permanent partnership. And those two deities are already married, and not to one another neutral

I find it interesting too, actually, but that one thing weirds me out.  

[MidnightLetter]

Seax was created by Raymond Buckland, right? To be sure I haven't read all that much of his, but he strikes me as a guy who would just go with what ever was working for him at the time. If you've ever read his "big blue book", while useful...there is not a lot of organization to it.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Letter: Yes, Seax was created by Raymond Buckland.

I think the story is, after he was (questionably) initiated and brought Traditional Wicca to the States, he fell into disagreement on some of the things Gardner built in to Traditional Wicca (such as initiations, the mysteries, etc...) and made his own off-shoot, calling it Seax.

I think Buckland pulls quite a bit from Anglo-Saxon traditions, which is where he gets his deities from for Seax, but I agree with San-chan that although Odinn and Freyja are known for spreading the love, they are not permanently linked like that.  

[Maxwell_Pink]

Ultraviolett1127

Well, although it's not a Traditional Wicca "tradition" by their standards, Seax Wicca interests me quite a bit. I think it's interesting how Buckland incorporated some of the things he did.

Although I am kind of puzzled as to why the God and Goddess are Odinn and Freyja. I don't imagine Frigg is too happy with that xd

Seax-Wica can be considered Traditional, depending on who you ask. Simon Craft refers to us (in his ebook Maiden Moon" as "Reformed Traditional Wiccans"

The decision to honor Woden and Freya came about due to the negative connotations associated with the name "Frigg" at the time he created the tradition. In the reissue of "The Tree", now known as "Buckland's Book of Saxon Witchcraft", Raymond explains this and goes on to add that on a personal basis you can honor any of the Saxon Deities you wish. Given that in some areas Freya and Frigg were considered to be one and the same I, personally don't have a problem with the change.

As for the actual creation of the Seax-Wica tradition, my understanding from him is that he did so because he was tired of the ego trips and other forms of "degree abuse" that were cropping up amongst Gardnerian covens in the States.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

-nod- I can definitely see where it might be considered Traditional Wicca, but then I see more for it not being Traditional Wicca. It does not honor the Lord and Lady of the Isles, it does not hand down the mysteries of Traditional Wicca, and there isn't a strong emphasis on lineage.

What kind of negative connotations were tied to the name Frigg? I haven't come across the mention of any in what I've read.  

[Maxwell_Pink]

Ultraviolett1127

-nod- I can definitely see where it might be considered Traditional Wicca, but then I see more for it not being Traditional Wicca. It does not honor the Lord and Lady of the Isles, it does not hand down the mysteries of Traditional Wicca, and there isn't a strong emphasis on lineage.

What kind of negative connotations were tied to the name Frigg? I haven't come across the mention of any in what I've read.

Solely from a BTW point of view I would agree, however I prefer to use this page (written by a Lycian Wiccan) as a gauge. By that description both coven initiated and those initiated by the Deities, themselves, could qualify.

"Frigg" was often used in place of the "F-Bomb" back in the day. Sadly its use as such is making a comeback. sad  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Maxwell_Pink

Ultraviolett1127

-nod- I can definitely see where it might be considered Traditional Wicca, but then I see more for it not being Traditional Wicca. It does not honor the Lord and Lady of the Isles, it does not hand down the mysteries of Traditional Wicca, and there isn't a strong emphasis on lineage.

What kind of negative connotations were tied to the name Frigg? I haven't come across the mention of any in what I've read.

Solely from a BTW point of view I would agree, however I prefer to use this page (written by a Lycian Wiccan) as a gauge. By that description both coven initiated and those initiated by the Deities, themselves, could qualify.

"Frigg" was often used in place of the "F-Bomb" back in the day. Sadly its use as such is making a comeback. sad

I would think initiation by the deities would be a difficult thing to work with. What would qualify as an initiation via the deities? How would you know for sure that the deities have initiated you and it just isn't Loki having some fun with you?

Couldn't they have used "Frigga"? Or Frija even. People say "goddammit" or even "god-f*****g-damnit", but that hasn't deterred anyone from honoring their god(s) wink  

[too2sweet]

Quote:

What would qualify as an initiation via the deities?

In general, any self-initiation type ritual would technically qualify. The thought being that if you have invoked them then they are present and will initiate you into their "mysteries".

Quote:

Initiation: For us initiation comes from Spirit - god and goddess or whatever face you put on it. In old Gardnerian Laws this was stated as 'there is only one true initiator'; meaning deity working through the self. We therefore see initiation as being 'a passage right of entry' into the coven or at a later stage as 'a passage right of acceptance, ephiphany or realisation' that a truly spiritual initiation has taken place.

Self-Initiation: We do not believe there truly is such a thing as 'self-initiation', as we believe initiation comes from spirit (see above). Therefore, if you perform an initiation by yourself and deity comes through how can it be 'self initiation' when it is deity that initiates you! Saying this we do not belive you can 'self-initiate' into traditions such as Gardnerian or Alexandrian as they require lineage (apostolic succession). You must abide by the rules of those traditions.
source

 

[Sanguina Cruenta]

The term "Traditional Wicca" applies ONLY to Gardnerians and Alexandrians. This is because it's a compromise, the other side of "Neo-Wicca".

Yes, Seax-Wica is a tradition, but it's a tradition of Neo-Wicca. It is not Traditional Wicca. It honours different deities. It does things in different ways. It is not Trad Wicca.

Frankly one should be happy enough with that. There are more than enough people who are adamant that it is not Wicca at all.

I believe the Trad Wiccan argument against self-initiation is that if you don't know what the gods' names are, how can you know they are initiating you?

My own argument is more simple. Initiation is initiation into the Mysteries and the religion. That does not take place in Neo-Wicca. The religion is different from Wicca proper. The Mysteries are different (and in many cases not present at all). Neo-Wicca is not an initiatory religion. Groups can involve a form of initiation, but the religion itself is open. If there is no group, then there is no initiation. Why an initiation would be necessary is bizarre to me.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

too2sweet

Quote:

What would qualify as an initiation via the deities?

In general, any self-initiation type ritual would technically qualify. The thought being that if you have invoked them then they are present and will initiate you into their "mysteries".

Quote:

Initiation: For us initiation comes from Spirit - god and goddess or whatever face you put on it. In old Gardnerian Laws this was stated as 'there is only one true initiator'; meaning deity working through the self. We therefore see initiation as being 'a passage right of entry' into the coven or at a later stage as 'a passage right of acceptance, ephiphany or realisation' that a truly spiritual initiation has taken place.

Self-Initiation: We do not believe there truly is such a thing as 'self-initiation', as we believe initiation comes from spirit (see above). Therefore, if you perform an initiation by yourself and deity comes through how can it be 'self initiation' when it is deity that initiates you! Saying this we do not belive you can 'self-initiate' into traditions such as Gardnerian or Alexandrian as they require lineage (apostolic succession). You must abide by the rules of those traditions.
source

Hmm...isn't it kind of...presumptuous...to assume that just because you've invoked the deities, they'll initiate you in? Even if you have a good rapport with them...I imagine they'd be picky about who they let in on their mysteries. It's one thing to have followers who honor you, it's another to have a follower who knows all of your dirty laundry.  

[Maxwell_Pink]

Ultraviolett1127

Couldn't they have used "Frigga"? Or Frija even. People say "goddammit" or even "god-f*****g-damnit", but that hasn't deterred anyone from honoring their god(s) wink

Back then there was still some blushing involved when one cursed. smile Nowadays it's less of an issue.

As for the initiation issue (which I somehow deleted from your quote and now GAIA is being a BPITA), based on what I've been told by some long practicing Pagans, UPG is being accepted more and more these days.

Sanguina-chan

The term "Traditional Wicca" applies ONLY to Gardnerians and Alexandrians. This is because it's a compromise, the other side of "Neo-Wicca".

Yes, Seax-Wica is a tradition, but it's a tradition of Neo-Wicca. It is not Traditional Wicca. It honours different deities. It does things in different ways. It is not Trad Wicca.

Frankly one should be happy enough with that. There are more than enough people who are adamant that it is not Wicca at all.

I never said I wasn't happy with the "Neo--Wiccan" label (though I will admit that I'm not exactly happy I now have to share it with a bunch of fluffy bunnies), I merely said that SOME do consider it to be traditional. Heck I've even had a BTW tell me that they consider Seax to be a BTW trad.

Sanguina-chan

Neo-Wicca is not an initiatory religion. Groups can involve a form of initiation, but the religion itself is open. If there is no group, then there is no initiation. Why an initiation would be necessary is bizarre to me.

I know of a fair number of witches who have been practicing 20+ years and who are neither Gardnerians nor Alexandrians, nor do they have lineage. Yet they consider themselves Wiccan (not Neo-Wiccan) because their trad is initiatory and they comply with all the other "requirements".

It's funny, but I've noticed that the longer one has been practicing the broader their definition of "Wicca" becomes.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Maxwell_Pink

Sanguina-chan

The term "Traditional Wicca" applies ONLY to Gardnerians and Alexandrians. This is because it's a compromise, the other side of "Neo-Wicca".

Yes, Seax-Wica is a tradition, but it's a tradition of Neo-Wicca. It is not Traditional Wicca. It honours different deities. It does things in different ways. It is not Trad Wicca.

Frankly one should be happy enough with that. There are more than enough people who are adamant that it is not Wicca at all.

I never said I wasn't happy with the "Neo--Wiccan" label (though I will admit that I'm not exactly happy I now have to share it with a bunch of fluffy bunnies), I merely said that SOME do consider it to be traditional. Heck I've even had a BTW tell me that they consider Seax to be a BTW trad.

I was talking to people in general, not just to you wink Fluffy bunnies often aren't Neo-Wiccan. *shrug* I find it very bizarre that a BTW would consider Seax-Wica to be Trad Wicca, considering that they worship different deities. There are a few Trads who really dislike Buckland, anyway. I try to distance myself from that whole issue.

Quote:

Sanguina-chan

Neo-Wicca is not an initiatory religion. Groups can involve a form of initiation, but the religion itself is open. If there is no group, then there is no initiation. Why an initiation would be necessary is bizarre to me.

I know of a fair number of witches who have been practicing 20+ years and who are neither Gardnerians nor Alexandrians, nor do they have lineage. Yet they consider themselves Wiccan (not Neo-Wiccan) because their trad is initiatory and they comply with all the other "requirements".

It's funny, but I've noticed that the longer one has been practicing the broader their definition of "Wicca" becomes.

That's the thing, though, your coven and tradition might be initiatory, but because it is not lineaged and it has no access to the Mysteries and rituals of Wicca proper, it isn't Wicca. Because Wicca is orthopraxic, and experiential, and the rituals are oath-bound. So they may consider themselves Wiccan and not Neo-Wiccan, but their understanding of the terms must be flawed, because they would not be correct.

I'm more inclined to think that the longer one has been calling their practice Wicca, the less likely one is to give up the term. That may be why their definitions are wider.  

[Siren Stern]

I like Dianic Traditions. As a man, of course I do not follow the Feminist Dianic way of Z. Budapest, which accepts only women praticers and only celebrate the Goddess, without male divinities. Here in Brazil I've been learning things from the Dianic Nemorensis, which derivates from McFarland Dianic way. I like to think the Goddess as having in herself the Male and Female aspects at same time, and I agree with the Dianic view that says the greatest Religions of the world celebrates only the Male aspects. To priorize the Goddess - but not ignoring the God -, would be an attempt of balance.