Ratri_Cat
Phoenixia, thank you for that link and your corrections. I mean that in the most honest way possible. I really appreciate this kind of stuff. I like my ignorance being counteracted like this. I learned alot from your replies. So thank you.
And I have a similar view towards your replies. I learn a lot as well. Thank you.
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I should add, though, in the beginning of your first reply, you did talk about the confusing matter in which your prophet spoke (if i
misinterpreted, please correct me).
misinterpreted, please correct me).
I became confused as to what you were referring to. I had to go back and read everything I wrote X__x
What I think you are referring to is when i said:
"It was completely written by God. God spoke to His angels, who in turn spoke to Muhammad (saw), who delivered the revelation to person who could write the revelation down."
I'm still confused though as to what your interpretation is.....and what I should specifically explain.
So I'm going to ramble. And if I still haven't explained anything......then you can clarify and I will try again.
God spoke to his angels means that God has nor will ever show Himself directly to even the people He chooses to be His Prophets, until the Day of Judgment. So God sent His angels down to earth to relay His message to the people through visions, dreams, etc.
Angels speak to Prophet (saw), means the Prophet (saw) would have a vision (even if he is amongst people) where the angels will speak to him and tell him things.
Right after the Prophet (saw) gets this revelations he called for pen and told one of the 14 (meaning the people who usually wrote it down) who was closest to him to write what had been revealed to him. The reason he called others was that he had never learned how to write as this was not a practice among the Arabs and was not necessary to become successful.
Then they all checked with each other and saw it if it was accurate to what he Prophet (saw) originally said.
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Do you think that would influence the way fundamentalist Muslims have acted in the Middle East?
Fundamentalists act how they want to. At this point I may start bashing the majority of Muslims so I apologize beforehand for that. A fact is that even though we believe that the Qur'an has not been abrogated.....a large portion of Muslims do not understand Arabic. So they rely on translations, and or interpretations of Ministers or so-called religious persons. There are many different translations out there. But, a Muslim who cares about actually getting a proper translation of the Qur'an knows that there are only three versions of the translation that are agreeable. Two are Sunni versions and one is Ahmadhi. These translations are the most similar.
The other translations are correct to an extent but the people who translate decide to add words in brackets to "explain" the meaning even if those words are not in the Arabic syntax. they should not add those words in brackets but should create a separate commentary. For example, I was watching a documentary on TV about Islam, and it showed how some translations in Arabic has the most absurd things in brackets that did not agree with other parts of the Qur'an. For example, in one verse in brackets it had been added "and use bombs, guns, and harmful weapons" against the disbelievers. This is not an accurate view at all. It is termed propaganda.
Unfortunately many of the fundamentalists are created because of stupid propaganda like this that is rampant in Muslim countries. Fundamentalist activities do not find support in any verse of the Qur'an or hadith. But, people change the translation to meet their needs. There reward/punishment will be with Allah. these people are just devoid of any faith.
The other point I mentioned is that a large majority does not even read the Qur'an but rely on minister interpretations. What these people should realize quickly is that the ministers are NOT appointed by God and so the majority should not believe everything they say but should get an education, learn to read, and do proper research on their own. Each person will be judged separately.....so people should not follow others blindly but should find their own way.
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And I forgot that the treatment of women often reflects tribal values and not religious values and have made the gross mistake of generalizing ordinary Muslims with those who do interpret the Qu'ran for their own means. For that, i sincerely apologize. And I apologize if I sounded...aloof...like a know-it-all.
Thank you for mentioning that. I won't hold it against you. I do the same (unfortunately) in a lot of issues as well. For example when I generalize all Christians to be pretty much the same. I apologize for that.
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I recently had a bad experience with a Muslim man and I'm letting some of my personal feelings boil over and made a poor attempt to mix it with fact.
You should have told him to go listen to one of the religious ministers and commit suicide. rolleyes
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BUT. On your answer about the jinns. It is most definitely a pre-Islamic concept.
I will first quote from the Britannica Online Encyclopedia, a very neutral and well-informed source.
jinniArabian mythology plural Jinn, also called Genie, Arabic Jinnī,
Main
in Arabic mythology, a supernatural spirit below the level of angels and devils. Ghūl (treacherous spirits of changing shape), ʿifrīt (diabolic, evil spirits), and siʿlā (treacherous spirits of invariable form) constitute classes of jinn. Jinn are beings of flame or air who are capable of assuming human or animal form and are said to dwell in all conceivable inanimate objects—stones, trees, ruins—underneath the earth, in the air, and in fire. They possess the bodily needs of human beings and can even be killed, but they are free from all physical restraints. Jinn delight in punishing humans for any harm done them, intentionally or unintentionally, and are said to be responsible for many diseases and all kinds of accidents; however, those human beings knowing the proper magical procedure can exploit the jinn to their advantage.
Belief in jinn was common in early Arabia, where they were thought to inspire poets and soothsayers. Even Muḥammad originally feared that his revelations might be the work of jinn. Their existence was further acknowledged in official Islām, which indicated that they, like human beings, would have to face eventual salvation or damnation. Jinn, especially through their association with magic, have always been favourite figures in North African, Egyptian, Syrian, Persian, and Turkish folklore and are the centre of an immense popular literature, appearing notably in The Thousand and One Nights. In India and Indonesia they have entered local Muslim imaginations by way of the Qurʾānic descriptions and Arabic literature.
Here is the link to Britannica Online Encyclopedia
Now I will go onto another source. This one definitely has a more anti-Muslim tone, but it still states the same thing: the concept of Jinn is not unique to Islam and existed before Islam. Muhammad merely modified it, or in as you stated, "purified" it.
The Bedouins also believed that the desert was full of living creatures/spirits called Jinn whose purpose was to blight their lives with mischief and difficulties. Since nomadic people bury their dead on the move and hence have no special resting-places such as graveyards, they subsequently had no special reverence for their dead nor any concept of an afterlife, of resurrection, a day of judgment or heaven and hell; these came with 'Islam'.
There's a lot more, especially on the name of Allah (i have more on this in my other posts with Xero about the pagan roots of Islam). Even if this soure would not be considered as "reputable" as Britannica Online Encyclopedia, it still says similar stuff. That you cannot deny. In the Name of Allah website
And third, which is a study done on Islam's roots. I cannot honestly verify how reputable this source is, BUT what should be taken to consideration the EVIDENCE that is provided, not by what the authors conclude, but by other people who have written on the same subject (you can see that in the foot notes. There's a lot of evidence)
It is often assumed that belief in the jinn who were thought to dwell in the desert originated with the Bedouin and was passed from them to the settled tribes. This assumption does not seem to me to be well founded. The Bedouin who are familiar with the desert feel much less fear there than do village or city dwellers who regard this unknown region as terrifying and who imagine that all sorts of monsters and demons dwell there. This tendency existed already in the Ancient East. 59 And there is another fact that deserves attention: among Arab peoples today, belief in spirits is much more intense among the agricultural population than among the Bedouin. 60 It is further worth noting that, according to W. F. Albright who bases his ideas on certain facts already established by Th. Noldeke and M. Lidzbarski, the word jinn is not Arabic but derived from Aramaic. Aramaic-speaking Christians used the term to designate pagan gods reduced to the status of demons. He concludes from this that the jinn themselves were introduced into Arabic folklore only late in the pre-Islamic period. 62 However that may be,' one must reckon seriously with this possibility, for it is supported by other observations of detail.' Even if one accepts an autochthonous pre-Christian animism among the Bedouin (which seems reasonable to me), this animism could have been reinforced by contributions from sedentary Arabs, and one should not see in it either the core or the root of the pre-Islamic Bedouin religion. The possibility of the secondary diffusion even of beliefs and practices which one would prefer to designate as very primitive is not purely theoretical. We have a clear example of it in the spread of Zar ceremonies (with their ideology) into Egypt and Arabia. This diffusion which occurred only since the nineteenth century was effected by African slaves. 64 We now know that what is "primitive" in the sense of a value judgment is not necessarily so in the chronological sense.
There is again, the familiar tone of Islam's pagan roots. And that jinn again, are not a concept unique to Islam. If you have the patience to go through this paper, it is worth looking into. Studies on Islam website
Allright, I want to sum it up on jinns: the concept existed before Islam.
I will first quote from the Britannica Online Encyclopedia, a very neutral and well-informed source.
Britannica Online Encyclopedia
jinniArabian mythology plural Jinn, also called Genie, Arabic Jinnī,
Main
in Arabic mythology, a supernatural spirit below the level of angels and devils. Ghūl (treacherous spirits of changing shape), ʿifrīt (diabolic, evil spirits), and siʿlā (treacherous spirits of invariable form) constitute classes of jinn. Jinn are beings of flame or air who are capable of assuming human or animal form and are said to dwell in all conceivable inanimate objects—stones, trees, ruins—underneath the earth, in the air, and in fire. They possess the bodily needs of human beings and can even be killed, but they are free from all physical restraints. Jinn delight in punishing humans for any harm done them, intentionally or unintentionally, and are said to be responsible for many diseases and all kinds of accidents; however, those human beings knowing the proper magical procedure can exploit the jinn to their advantage.
Belief in jinn was common in early Arabia, where they were thought to inspire poets and soothsayers. Even Muḥammad originally feared that his revelations might be the work of jinn. Their existence was further acknowledged in official Islām, which indicated that they, like human beings, would have to face eventual salvation or damnation. Jinn, especially through their association with magic, have always been favourite figures in North African, Egyptian, Syrian, Persian, and Turkish folklore and are the centre of an immense popular literature, appearing notably in The Thousand and One Nights. In India and Indonesia they have entered local Muslim imaginations by way of the Qurʾānic descriptions and Arabic literature.
Here is the link to Britannica Online Encyclopedia
Now I will go onto another source. This one definitely has a more anti-Muslim tone, but it still states the same thing: the concept of Jinn is not unique to Islam and existed before Islam. Muhammad merely modified it, or in as you stated, "purified" it.
In The Name of Allah
The Bedouins also believed that the desert was full of living creatures/spirits called Jinn whose purpose was to blight their lives with mischief and difficulties. Since nomadic people bury their dead on the move and hence have no special resting-places such as graveyards, they subsequently had no special reverence for their dead nor any concept of an afterlife, of resurrection, a day of judgment or heaven and hell; these came with 'Islam'.
There's a lot more, especially on the name of Allah (i have more on this in my other posts with Xero about the pagan roots of Islam). Even if this soure would not be considered as "reputable" as Britannica Online Encyclopedia, it still says similar stuff. That you cannot deny. In the Name of Allah website
And third, which is a study done on Islam's roots. I cannot honestly verify how reputable this source is, BUT what should be taken to consideration the EVIDENCE that is provided, not by what the authors conclude, but by other people who have written on the same subject (you can see that in the foot notes. There's a lot of evidence)
Studies on Islam
It is often assumed that belief in the jinn who were thought to dwell in the desert originated with the Bedouin and was passed from them to the settled tribes. This assumption does not seem to me to be well founded. The Bedouin who are familiar with the desert feel much less fear there than do village or city dwellers who regard this unknown region as terrifying and who imagine that all sorts of monsters and demons dwell there. This tendency existed already in the Ancient East. 59 And there is another fact that deserves attention: among Arab peoples today, belief in spirits is much more intense among the agricultural population than among the Bedouin. 60 It is further worth noting that, according to W. F. Albright who bases his ideas on certain facts already established by Th. Noldeke and M. Lidzbarski, the word jinn is not Arabic but derived from Aramaic. Aramaic-speaking Christians used the term to designate pagan gods reduced to the status of demons. He concludes from this that the jinn themselves were introduced into Arabic folklore only late in the pre-Islamic period. 62 However that may be,' one must reckon seriously with this possibility, for it is supported by other observations of detail.' Even if one accepts an autochthonous pre-Christian animism among the Bedouin (which seems reasonable to me), this animism could have been reinforced by contributions from sedentary Arabs, and one should not see in it either the core or the root of the pre-Islamic Bedouin religion. The possibility of the secondary diffusion even of beliefs and practices which one would prefer to designate as very primitive is not purely theoretical. We have a clear example of it in the spread of Zar ceremonies (with their ideology) into Egypt and Arabia. This diffusion which occurred only since the nineteenth century was effected by African slaves. 64 We now know that what is "primitive" in the sense of a value judgment is not necessarily so in the chronological sense.
There is again, the familiar tone of Islam's pagan roots. And that jinn again, are not a concept unique to Islam. If you have the patience to go through this paper, it is worth looking into. Studies on Islam website
Allright, I want to sum it up on jinns: the concept existed before Islam.
I didn't know that.
I have some issues with the third source that I would like to talk about first..........that have nothing to do with jinn. It does not matter that the root was from Aramic or not because Arabs believes that Arabic was the mother of all languages.....meaning that all languages had found roots from Arabic. This finds support in A LOT of research. For example, most of the Abrahamic Prophets are located around Arabic speaking places. Even the first Prophet Adam was located in Arabia. Look at site for more info:
http://www.alislam.org/topics/arabic/
Now I can only speak for my own sect, which is not a majority as of yet. My sect does not believe that jinn were mystical fire creatures etc. and this does not find support in ANY SINGLE verse of the Qur'an. What Jinn are said to be are things that are invisible to the eye. These things include 1) bacteria 2) kings that remained aloof from the common people 3) satan ,etc.
When the Qur'an speaks of Jinn being create out of fire it is referring to the fact that matter was created from fire and bacteria was created from fire. Bacteria cannot be seen by men without special devices so becteria is called jinn.
The majority of Muslim belief unfortunately is like the pagan ignorant Arabic belief. I invite ANYONE to support this belief by using quotes from the Qur'an and ahadith (like in the previous guild).
