How many Pagans REALLY believe in magic?

[WebenBanu]

Sometimes I wonder, what with all I see online and at gatherings. It seems to me like a lot of people don't take it seriously- they seem to play at magic, and accept no accountability for their actions. For example,

I see people cast spells and then post online that they cast this spell and got what they asked for, and are now confused for some reason.

I see people who on one hand talk a great deal about the power of words and language, but pepper their speech with enough curses and swear words to make me want to dive for cover.

I've spoken with people who, when approached with the concept that perhaps their magical interference in a matter may be unethical, misguided, or imbalancing a delicate situation, will respond that "it's only a spell, it can't hurt anything."

Sometimes people's views on magic seem to parallel the views on herbal medicine I've seen- it's more "natural," and therefore can do no harm and only good. Unfortunately, the view is wrong on both counts- and irresponsible use of magic is just as problematic as the irresponsible use of any other sort of power or influence.

I'd love to conduct a survey one of these days, toe see how many people actually treat magic as the force they claim to believe in. But I've no idea of how to go about it- on the whole, these people don't think they're being irresponsible at all, they think I'm overcautious. neutral Anyway, thanks for listening to my rant. It comes up from time to time, lol.  

[Atma311]

I believe the people you're referring to are lacking in wisdom, which is something that can only come from time, experience, and a willingness to change.

As long as the people you're talking about are willing to change and keep learning through their experiences, then they'll find for themselves the things you already see clearly.

As for me, I try not to use magic(k) too much unless I find it to be a very important situation/reason for me to. Just because we've discovered how to use it doesn't mean we should for every little thing. Magic(k) IS an extremely powerful and effective force, so that kind of use you're referring to will likely show those people it is not to be taken lightly on its own.  

[goddess_elppy]

Hmmm... I dunno if I'd call it 'magic' per-se.
I do see a lot of what you're talking about. I got out of the wiccan group that I was a part of because of some of the exact reasons you give.
I do prefer to work directly with energy rather than manipulating spells, but I don't do it very often, and when I do, it can either work really well, or not at all.
Unfortunately there are a lot of fluffies running around; people who THINK they're pagans and wiccan, but don't actually adhere to rules or reasoning.

 

[Conan The Barbie Doll]

I think it's more a lack of wisdom than knowledge, as someone else said.

Not all people are bad though, there are some of us who believe. biggrin  

[WebenBanu]

Yeah, and pitching a fit over it is probably not the most mature thing to do either, heh. Sorry for the rant- I just really felt the need to post it somewhere. I know that not everyone is like that, though I do get an overdose on Gaia from time to time. They're not bad people, it's just a frustrating situation with which to be confronted over and over. Thanks, guys!  

[blindfaith^_^]

I think there's a lot of things to take into account when discussing the use and place of magic.

One thing to keep in mind that some people take magic as a very intense specific procedure that needs heavy consideration while others don't. Most of the magics I would are kinds of energy work for example and I can do a host of minor workings on the spot and when I feel appropriate I do just that. Magic is a tool, exactly what kind of tool is somewhat up to an individual. My general approach is more casual than others.

Another consideration in this discussion might be the exact definition of magic and what on feels are it's goals, limits, means, and ends. Discussing magic in and out of the pagan scene leads to a variety of very different interpretations on what magic is and what ethical standards should be maintained.

Beyond that, there is the amount of experience a practitioner has had. I've noticed that more often than not the less experience on has had, the more likely one is to brush off concerns or not even be able to idenitfy that such concerns exist.

This is just my take though.  

[Starlock]

I'm not sure this is unique to people performing spellcraft. I think you could say that people in general may not always take responsibility for what they are doing. We go through so much of our lives on automatic pilot; relying on intuitive instincts born of past experiences and trial and error. It's hard to be critical of our every action, to think through every nuance of something. As such, a fair degree of hypocrisy and inconsistency pops up when you look at what people believe for one thing and what they believe in another.

For example, you mentioned the power of words, WebenBanu? They might subscribe to the law of magic which states this, but not consider that it applies beyond just spell working. They create a sort of double standard because they haven't taken the time to think about how this belief might apply in places other than just spellcraft. One of the curious things about the laws of magic is that they pretty much apply regardless if you're doing a spell or not. They're almost like 'common sense' laws. If you wanted to survey this, you could ask questions about spell casting situations and then everyday situations and see where the answers differ.  

[Artermiswolf]

I'm new to all of this, so hopefully I don't offend. Magic to me, is something that a lot of people don't take seriously enough. Too many people are just looking for a quick fix. The way I see it, though, is that the magic is really in your own mind. Now, I think sometimes your mind can influence other beings, but most of the magic I use has to do with willpower, self confidence, or other things that I need to do myself. I think that most people who don't take their magic seriously have no influence on anything anyway.  

[Cosmic Space Orange]

I don't belive in it to begin with, the problem is that no matter what kinds of power people claim to have regardless if it's logical or not. Everyone uses a diffent excuse every time. It's one thing to boost willpower and things like Artimis mentioned but people he talk about thier "energy work" come out sounding silly to me. Ethical standards don't matter because the only person acually effected is themselves. No matter how much chanting and cursing and wanting the person does that bad luck is never goiing to happen, nor is a lightning bolt going to stike thier enemy down. People cast a love spell and then gather the confidence to ask thier crush out, it worked. It must have been the spell! It's the same ilogical desire to want to belive in something we as a species are always prone to. What I do as 'magic' is typically meditation and mental exersizes.  

[Rustig]

SiegeDragomon

I don't belive in it to begin with, the problem is that no matter what kinds of power people claim to have regardless if it's logical or not. Everyone uses a diffent excuse every time. It's one thing to boost willpower and things like Artimis mentioned but people he talk about thier "energy work" come out sounding silly to me. Ethical standards don't matter because the only person acually effected is themselves. No matter how much chanting and cursing and wanting the person does that bad luck is never goiing to happen, nor is a lightning bolt going to stike thier enemy down. People cast a love spell and then gather the confidence to ask thier crush out, it worked. It must have been the spell! It's the same ilogical desire to want to belive in something we as a species are always prone to. What I do as 'magic' is typically meditation and mental exersizes.

In a similar vein, one must be wary of only attributing success to personal psychological factors. "It must have been the spell!" is just as easy to throw out as "It must have been their selfconfidence!" One can be hardline dogmatic about the psychological model as much as they can any other.

That's not to say I don't agree with you. My own favourite theory of magic is that it /is/ just arranged coincidence, albeit one people just simply shove the label of "Generic Coincidence" on without considering the implications of being able to get things via coincidence every time.  

[Cosmic Space Orange]

Mitsh

SiegeDragomon

I don't belive in it to begin with, the problem is that no matter what kinds of power people claim to have regardless if it's logical or not. Everyone uses a diffent excuse every time. It's one thing to boost willpower and things like Artimis mentioned but people he talk about thier "energy work" come out sounding silly to me. Ethical standards don't matter because the only person acually effected is themselves. No matter how much chanting and cursing and wanting the person does that bad luck is never goiing to happen, nor is a lightning bolt going to stike thier enemy down. People cast a love spell and then gather the confidence to ask thier crush out, it worked. It must have been the spell! It's the same ilogical desire to want to belive in something we as a species are always prone to. What I do as 'magic' is typically meditation and mental exersizes.

In a similar vein, one must be wary of only attributing success to personal psychological factors. "It must have been the spell!" is just as easy to throw out as "It must have been their selfconfidence!" One can be hardline dogmatic about the psychological model as much as they can any other.

That's not to say I don't agree with you. My own favourite theory of magic is that it /is/ just arranged coincidence, albeit one people just simply shove the label of "Generic Coincidence" on without considering the implications of being able to get things via coincidence every time.

I'm not claiming their self confidence got them the date, simply that the love spell gave them the self confidence to try in the first place.  

[Rustig]

SiegeDragomon

Mitsh

SiegeDragomon

I don't belive in it to begin with, the problem is that no matter what kinds of power people claim to have regardless if it's logical or not. Everyone uses a diffent excuse every time. It's one thing to boost willpower and things like Artimis mentioned but people he talk about thier "energy work" come out sounding silly to me. Ethical standards don't matter because the only person acually effected is themselves. No matter how much chanting and cursing and wanting the person does that bad luck is never goiing to happen, nor is a lightning bolt going to stike thier enemy down. People cast a love spell and then gather the confidence to ask thier crush out, it worked. It must have been the spell! It's the same ilogical desire to want to belive in something we as a species are always prone to. What I do as 'magic' is typically meditation and mental exersizes.

In a similar vein, one must be wary of only attributing success to personal psychological factors. "It must have been the spell!" is just as easy to throw out as "It must have been their selfconfidence!" One can be hardline dogmatic about the psychological model as much as they can any other.

That's not to say I don't agree with you. My own favourite theory of magic is that it /is/ just arranged coincidence, albeit one people just simply shove the label of "Generic Coincidence" on without considering the implications of being able to get things via coincidence every time.

I'm not claiming their self confidence got them the date, simply that the love spell gave them the self confidence to try in the first place.

You could attribute that to the maxim of "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - NLP (to me, anyhow) seems to be largely made up of what we previously considered magick. Placebos and "fake it til you make it" has a lot in common with magickal laws of similitude.

That said, in a sense, the love spell did in fact work. Not through the most inherently obvious medium (and also not through a completely provable medium), but they performed the spell and got the desired result.  

[Cosmic Space Orange]

Mitsh

SiegeDragomon

Mitsh

SiegeDragomon

I don't belive in it to begin with, the problem is that no matter what kinds of power people claim to have regardless if it's logical or not. Everyone uses a diffent excuse every time. It's one thing to boost willpower and things like Artimis mentioned but people he talk about thier "energy work" come out sounding silly to me. Ethical standards don't matter because the only person acually effected is themselves. No matter how much chanting and cursing and wanting the person does that bad luck is never goiing to happen, nor is a lightning bolt going to stike thier enemy down. People cast a love spell and then gather the confidence to ask thier crush out, it worked. It must have been the spell! It's the same ilogical desire to want to belive in something we as a species are always prone to. What I do as 'magic' is typically meditation and mental exersizes.

In a similar vein, one must be wary of only attributing success to personal psychological factors. "It must have been the spell!" is just as easy to throw out as "It must have been their selfconfidence!" One can be hardline dogmatic about the psychological model as much as they can any other.

That's not to say I don't agree with you. My own favourite theory of magic is that it /is/ just arranged coincidence, albeit one people just simply shove the label of "Generic Coincidence" on without considering the implications of being able to get things via coincidence every time.

I'm not claiming their self confidence got them the date, simply that the love spell gave them the self confidence to try in the first place.

You could attribute that to the maxim of "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - NLP (to me, anyhow) seems to be largely made up of what we previously considered magick. Placebos and "fake it til you make it" has a lot in common with magickal laws of similitude.

That said, in a sense, the love spell did in fact work. Not through the most inherently obvious medium (and also not through a completely provable medium), but they performed the spell and got the desired result.

Although i always thought the quote would be more accurate as "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic to the ignorant"

But the same logic could be put into anything, for example. I could jump up and down while flailing my arms wildly and call it a good luck spell and then take a test. Now while i would say I got an A because i worked my a** off in class It would be by your logic possible to claim that I performed the spell and got the desired result.