"Is Paganism/Wicca Sexist?"

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

blindfaith^_^

Another thing that bothers me, which while related isn't entirely the same, is the press on the heterosexual agenda.

*blink*
We have an agenda?
WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED????

Quote:

Everything seems to lead back into symbolic phallus's and chalices.

I know of one instance of phalluses in Asatru. Please find for me chalices and the joining of them.
Perhaps your statement would be better phrased "In Wicca..." or similar?

Quote:

I know fertility and sex is a big part of many people's spiritual practices, but continually stressing thee whole phallus belongs with the chalice bit is something I find really irritating.

Why? They do go together.
Please note also though that by saying they go together, I am not saying two chalices and/or two phalluses don't go together.

Quote:

I don't see how straight sex with a condom is more a celebration of fertility than lesbian or gay sex acts are.

Because even with protection, a straight couple has a far better chance of concieving than a gay couple having unprotected sex do?

Quote:

Both are celebrations of union, and one's potential to create.

But, union =|= fertility.
None of my "unions" are fertility focused.

Quote:

Why is it inherent in women to create and men to sacrifice?

Why shouldn't it be? Why should I as a woman have to want to be in a sacrificial position? Why can't I enjoy being in a receptive/creator position? Why do I have to feel shitty about enjoying roles and tasks typically assigned to women? Why, short of growing my own c**k, should I have to try to be a man or otherwise strip myself of things that identify my gender as female?

Quote:

How are these definitions really any different than the older ones where women should tend to family and home while men should go out and provide? They are still incredibly limiting and presumptuous.

Nothing about Paganism that I have read suggested that it was turning the tables and re-defining gender roles and sex. I think what is probably more productive is for them to take the gender roles as they are now and shed new, fresh light on them; make people appreciate what they are capable of and not make anything seem "low" or "wrong" or "inferior."  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Each Pagan religion's view on gender is influenced by the culture it draws from. So, Wicca's view on gender is influenced by 1950's Britain. I fail to see why a stress on heterosexual fertility or anything would be any kind of surprise.

When Gardner was a kid, women wore corsets and couldn't vote. And yeah, it influenced him. He wasn't a misogynist or anything, just a product of his time. And it spilled over a little, and Wicca was still radical for giving women as much influence as it did. Because male and female were equal, or at least much more equal than anything else around.

Now me, I personally like having a uterus. I like being able to b***h, I like the way oestrogen makes chocolate taste better, I like that I can multi-task, I like being complicated. I understand that there's very little a man can do that I cannot. I fail to see the place in Paganism where the women are forced to do one thing and the men another, unless you take everything out of context and distil it down to the point where it loses all meaning.

I am getting a corset for Christmas and I am ******** happy about it, thank you very much. And if someone starts bitching to me about the fact that women can now wear pants I am going to sprout horns and assrape you with them. Because as a woman who can do anything, I am totally entitled to do something incredibly feminine. I shall damn well wear my corset and flutter my fan and giggle and read old romances. And if a hero turns up in a half-open pirate shirt and a giant c**k I will be a happy, happy woman.

I honestly fail to see what the problem is here. Particular roles in ritual don't mean that a woman is shoved into a particular "gender role" and same deal for men. It's not like outside the context of ritual you're still looked at as "masculine" or "feminine".

This:
2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
...only counts if you're fostering stereotypes. So in this context, saying the female role is receptive in ritual - which I don't think is a part of Wicca anyway - only counts as sexism if you then expect women to be continually receptive and submissive the rest of the time as well. This sort of thing only applies if you're saying "daughter, you are a girl and will thus become a secretary. Son, you are a boy and will drive trucks". Note "social roles", not "roles in ritual". If women gravitate towards particular things and men to others, that's not sexism. There are more female primary school teachers than male ones, but that doesn't mean men can't be a primary school teacher if they don't wish to be. As a result of the statistics there's a general "oh!" sort of response if a man says he teaches primary school, but I don't think this is fostering stereotypes to the point of sexism. Yeah, okay, it's supporting these stereotypes, but I think the people who are really the problem are the ones who look at a male primary school teacher and start screaming "******".

If you take this to extremes, you're going to start bitching that it's always the woman who carries the baby, and that it's totally sexist.

Having "masculine" and "feminine" as archetypal philosophies within your religious studies doesn't mean you're enforcing particular roles on women. It means that you're using these words as little shortcuts. They're from ******** Ceremonial stuff! They are all about their little archetypes and crap. Seriously. Look at Freemasonry. Any women in there? No, there are not. OMFG. Have you ever met a HPS who was a submissive, retiring sort of woman? I know all the ones I've come across are strong women who do what they damn well like, and feel empowered both as women and as people by their religion, not forced into social roles or stereotypes.

People who come to Paganism and start going on about Motherhood and how important it is and so on are generally people who were already sexist pains in the a** and found the female empowerment aspect of Paganism appealing. And there are a lot of these people. Most of them are American and all of them are annoying. And I don't care, because they didn't get most of these ideas from Paganism. Nor do they represent Pagans.

Anyway. I'm not sure what my point is. But then I'm not sure what anyone else's point is.

Oh, and by the way? I have PMS, and am reinforcing the stereotype of a bitchy woman with PMS. You got a problem with that?  

[blindfaith^_^]

Ultraviolett1127

blindfaith^_^

Another thing that bothers me, which while related isn't entirely the same, is the press on the heterosexual agenda.

*blink*
We have an agenda?
WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED????

lol, I only meant that there seems to be an over emphasis in many, though certainly not all neopagan groups for their to be some sort of phallus and chalice ritual in which fertility is celebrated only by the straight sex as opposed to many other sexual expressions. I'm particularly partial to some of the flower self pollinating opportunities that starlock mentioned because as of right now I can see that being on badass ritual ^_^.

I mispoke in calling it an agenda and I certainly didn't mean most or all groups and faiths.

Quote:

I know of one instance of phalluses in Asatru. Please find for me chalices and the joining of them.

I hadn't meant to implicate Asatru. I don't know enough about said faith structure. I was speaking mostly from what I know of some eclectic pagan groups and some Wiccans. I didn't mean to imply this is an all pagan thing or even an all eclectic pagan or Wiccan thing.

Quote:

Why? They do go together. Please note also though that by saying they go together, I am not saying two chalices and/or two phalluses don't go together.

There's a lot of different human sexual expression to explore and interpret, why stick to just one? There's a long of different forms of reproduction in nature in general. Budding is one that seems like it could be fun and Starlock really went over a lot of my feelings on this in her post regarding various plant reproductive systems.

In short it isn't the ceremony that bothers me, it's the focus on that to the exclusion of other potentials.

Quote:

Because even with protection, a straight couple has a far better chance of concieving than a gay couple having unprotected sex do?

Yeah, butt it becomes apparent that this kind of fertility isn't the goal.

Quote:

But, union =|= fertility.

Not babies fertile no, but a cultivation of a strong and prosperous relationship perhaps. Maybe a celebration of a partnership, I guess it all depends on what you feel the need to focus on.

Quote:

Why shouldn't it be? Why should I as a woman have to want to be in a sacrificial position? Why can't I enjoy being in a receptive/creator position? Why do I have to feel shitty about enjoying roles and tasks typically assigned to women? Why, short of growing my own c**k, should I have to try to be a man?

You shouldn't feel shitty about anything. If you wanted to be a receptive creator or the sacrificial position it should all all be fine. I don't care if you want to play either role, I just don't think it should be automatically assumed which role you want to play or would feel comfortable in. Gender shouldn't be the defining factor of those roles.

Quote:

Nothing about Paganism that I have read suggested that it was turning the tables and re-defining gender roles and sex. I think what is probably more productive is for them to take the gender roles as they are now and shed new, fresh light on them; make people appreciate what they are capable of and not make anything seem "low" or "wrong" or "inferior."

You're right that paganism doesn't have to be a reassignment of one's roles through gender or any other definition, and if that works for you great. For my personal needs, I'm interested in something different and certainly paganism is diverse enough to provide both options.

In my experience what roles people are capable of doesn't relate to gender and restricting it in such a way is something I will always feel is a mistake. It doesn't mean that some people maybe even most people won't want the traditional role, I just see no reason to leave it at that.

As a side note, I see you around a lot and I almost always really like your avis? What's the Holiday ornamentish thing you're holding?

@too2sweet: I think the ability to swap gender roles on occasion or when it needs be can be very progressive. I'm curious, what is considered 'as needs be'? Is it a shortage of on sex to play the role, does it relate to a person's comfort and preference, or is it something else?  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

blindfaith^_^

Ultraviolett1127

blindfaith^_^

Another thing that bothers me, which while related isn't entirely the same, is the press on the heterosexual agenda.

*blink*
We have an agenda?
WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED????

lol, I only meant that there seems to be an over emphasis in many, though certainly not all neopagan groups for their to be some sort of phallus and chalice ritual in which fertility is celebrated only by the straight sex as opposed to many other sexual expressions.

Well, because that's how humans express fertility. Not all sexual acts equal fertility. It's not saying that other sexual acts are lesser or somehow unimportant, it's just expressing that hetero sex is how humans are fertile.

Quote:

I'm particularly partial to some of the flower self pollinating opportunities that starlock mentioned because as of right now I can see that being on badass ritual ^_^.

Which is fine. But Wicca, specifically, focuses on human fertility. It is a religion followed by humans. Self-pollination is probably appreciated, but is not the focus since it is not a religion dedicated to flowers and the many ways they express fertility.

Quote:

Quote:

I know of one instance of phalluses in Asatru. Please find for me chalices and the joining of them.

I hadn't meant to implicate Asatru. I don't know enough about said faith structure. I was speaking mostly from what I know of some eclectic pagan groups and some Wiccans. I didn't mean to imply this is an all pagan thing or even an all eclectic pagan or Wiccan thing.

I think a lot of people get a sort of tunnel vision and see Wicca/Neo-Wicca as a sort of "if Wicca is doing it, the other Pagan faiths must be similar too." It happens.

Quote:

Quote:

Why? They do go together. Please note also though that by saying they go together, I am not saying two chalices and/or two phalluses don't go together.

There's a lot of different human sexual expression to explore and interpret, why stick to just one?

Because the focus of Wicca is on fertility. Other sexual expressions are fine, but it's the one expression that functions for fertility that Wicca is interested in.

Quote:

There's a long of different forms of reproduction in nature in general. Budding is one that seems like it could be fun and Starlock really went over a lot of my feelings on this in her post regarding various plant reproductive systems.

True, there are. But, like I said before, Wicca it would seem would be primarily interested in the fertility and the way it is shown in humans.

Quote:

In short it isn't the ceremony that bothers me, it's the focus on that to the exclusion of other potentials.

I think that other possibilities are excluded due to the fact that they are not conducive to the focus of the faith.

Quote:

Quote:

Because even with protection, a straight couple has a far better chance of concieving than a gay couple having unprotected sex do?

Yeah, but it becomes apparent that this kind of fertility isn't the goal.

I'm not sure what you mean here?

Quote:

Quote:

But, union =|= fertility.

Not babies fertile no, but a cultivation of a strong and prosperous relationship perhaps. Maybe a celebration of a partnership, I guess it all depends on what you feel the need to focus on.

If one wanted to focus on those different things, then I would say no, a gender or sex polarity would not be necessary. But, I am under the understanding that Wicca focuses on fertility in sexual intercourse, given the story of the God being born of the Goddess, having sex with her, and then dying to be reborn again.

Quote:

Quote:

Why shouldn't it be? Why should I as a woman have to want to be in a sacrificial position? Why can't I enjoy being in a receptive/creator position? Why do I have to feel shitty about enjoying roles and tasks typically assigned to women? Why, short of growing my own c**k, should I have to try to be a man?

You shouldn't feel shitty about anything. If you wanted to be a receptive creator or the sacrificial position it should all all be fine. I don't care if you want to play either role, I just don't think it should be automatically assumed which role you want to play or would feel comfortable in. Gender shouldn't be the defining factor of those roles.

I think I'm in agreement. For me, I caught on very quickly when we were taught that girls didn't have to be stay-at-homes and instead, boys could do that because -hey- both are capable of doing that.

Quote:

Quote:

Nothing about Paganism that I have read suggested that it was turning the tables and re-defining gender roles and sex. I think what is probably more productive is for them to take the gender roles as they are now and shed new, fresh light on them; make people appreciate what they are capable of and not make anything seem "low" or "wrong" or "inferior."

You're right that paganism doesn't have to be a reassignment of one's roles through gender or any other definition, and if that works for you great. For my personal needs, I'm interested in something different and certainly paganism is diverse enough to provide both options.

Then you are free to make your own way and practice in the way that you feel best suits your needs, I'm not denying that. It just seemed like Paganism as a whole was being frowned at for gender and such, when really (usually) it's Wicca and Neo-Wicca that holds such a stark polarity.
To add to San-chan's list of examples of deities bucking gender, Thorr cross-dressed as Freyja to steal his hammer back from a giant mrgreen . It always makes me giggle at the thought of big, muscular Thorr passing off as Freyja, dressed in a bridal outfit (back then they wore heavier veils, so his beard wouldn't have shown xd ) and speaking in a high-pitched voice rofl rofl rofl .

Quote:

In my experience what roles people are capable of doesn't relate to gender and restricting it in such a way is something I will always feel is a mistake. It doesn't mean that some people maybe even most people won't want the traditional role, I just see no reason to leave it at that.

To me, I see this as something that still needs worked on. Hel, it'll probably be something that people are working on for many years to come, ya know? I mean, since Gardner's times, a lot of progress has been made, but it still has a ways to go.

Quote:

As a side note, I see you around a lot and I almost always really like your avis? What's the Holiday ornamentish thing you're holding?

Thank you redface .
My ornament is a pose on the Carol of Ol' Ebeneezer (first gen).  

[too2sweet]

blindfaith^_^

@too2sweet: I think the ability to swap gender roles on occasion or when it needs be can be very progressive. I'm curious, what is considered 'as needs be'? Is it a shortage of on sex to play the role, does it relate to a person's comfort and preference, or is it something else?

For the most part it is only in cases where the appropriate person/gender isn't available (for whatever reason). I don't think it really happens all that often, but it is possible. There may also be some few cases involving either gay/lesbian or transgender, though my understanding (of the Wiccan point of view) is that it doesn't matter what gender you identify with, it's all about the "plumbing".  

[Aryain Flames]

i dont believe it is. at least in the way i practice, i try to keep my rituals as balance as possible. i do agree with Tashinada's point tho, that some groups may over-emphasise the feminin aspect as a result to Christianity. as a whole however, i do not belive paganism/wicca to be sexist.  

[x-Xx-Kiki-Coco-xX-x]

Aryain Flames

i dont believe it is. at least in the way i practice, i try to keep my rituals as balance as possible. i do agree with Tashinada's point tho, that some groups may over-emphasise the feminin aspect as a result to Christianity. as a whole however, i do not belive paganism/wicca to be sexist.

i disagree partly.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

x-Xx-Kiki-Coco-xX-x

Aryain Flames

i dont believe it is. at least in the way i practice, i try to keep my rituals as balance as possible. i do agree with Tashinada's point tho, that some groups may over-emphasise the feminin aspect as a result to Christianity. as a whole however, i do not belive paganism/wicca to be sexist.

i disagree partly.

Would you like to expand on how and why you disagree partly?  

[Tari_Leralonde]

I would have to say it depends on the individual practicing Wicca.
For me, the way I practice I make sure there is no sexism, because I am strongly against sexism. I understand that there is a male/female side to everything, but they are both equal, and I do whatever I can to make sure I don't favor one side more than the other. I believe in the Goddess and God, but I celebrate both in equal favor, and I believe both are just two different aspects of one Ultimate Creatrix. Sometimes I lean more to the Goddess, like at night in the winter when I can see the moon (in Southern Alaska, you almost never see the moon in the summer). But in the spring and summer, I lean more to the God because of how dominant the sun and warmth is. I usually don't consciously do this, but I have noticed that I do it frequently.
But I would have to say that sometimes Wicca is quite sexist, like in the Dianic traditions. But when it all comes down to it, saying that Wicca is sexist is a generalization, like saying that all blondes are stupid or all Christians are bible-thumpers. It all depends on the individual.  

[wiccan of the moon]

I'm not exactly sure if they're sexist. It does make me curious though.
I don't think it is, to tell you the truth. I see nothing wrong with it. I know it is kind of female based, but it's not so bad as to be called sexist.  

[Arc En Licorne]

it might be to some people because it is centered around women and not men like every other religion but any one is aloud to practice and it doesnt matter ur gender if u wanna join a coven men and women are aloud  

[Morgandria]

xXOnYx MoOnXx

it might be to some people because it is centered around women and not men like every other religion but any one is aloud to practice and it doesnt matter ur gender if u wanna join a coven men and women are aloud

You are not a Wiccan. Please stop speaking for Wicca as if you are.