What's your definition of RPG?

[nitnit]

Hello there everyone. Nitnit here, disgruntled captain and ruling tyrant. I've decided to make a topic that's actually about gaming. This is very wordy so I'll add a Tl;Dr at the bottom for those of you who are impatient


All my life I've been a fan of every genre of video game - other than sports, and the majority of racing. While I've never truly mastered any competitive game (well I got relatively close with pokemon, which would be strategy), I've noticed that one genre has always been loosely defined - RPG, an acronym for role playing game.

Now, what I'm asking is what causes you guys to truly call a game an RPG?

If it's just assuming the role of a character, then in essence every video game is an RPG. Even in those few games where you're merely an observer or invisible force - you're still taking that role.

I ask this because it feels to me that there is no real definition of an RPG. Some people say that if a game has experience and leveling up, then it has "RPG elements". Others feel that we have to further categorize them. For example, games that play similar to the majority of final fantasies, dragon warriors, star ocean, etc. are often called "jRPGs". Some call games that are more set in table top rules call "western RPGs" - such as Fallout 1/2 (not 3), Planescape Torment, and Baldur's Gate 1/2 (not the console games..) While others will add to that list games made in the west that are RPGs (so add in fallout 3, mass effect, kotor, etc)

These two subgenres are vastly different... If you compare Final Fantasy 6 and Fallout (1), both are great games, but they play extremely differently. Final Fantasy, while allowing you to persue sidequests, has a pretty linear quest that you can't really fail unless you die - after which you simply start over at the last save. Fallout 1 on the other hand is very non linear through your first completely unguided playthrough. It requires you to search high and low for information in a foreign world to find a water chip within a very strict deadline. If you fail, then reload a previous save, or make a new game. There are also countless differences in terms of storytelling, combat, character creation, and more.

This is not to say that one game is better than the other - just that they are almost two different genres.

Now let's start throwing in other games with the RPG tag on it. Pokemon. Fallout 3. Deus Ex. Final Fantasy Tactics. World of Warcraft. Fable 2.

All of these games are extremely different. I'll wrap up my question in the tl;dr section below:



TL;DR:



What makes an RPG? Is it leveling up? Is it increasing stats? Is it non linear storytelling? Is it spikey hair and big swords? Is it collecting small creatures and making them fight to near death?

Also, to add some spice to your answer - are there any games which are hailed RPGs that you feel aren't really RPGs? Are there others that aren't RPGs that you think should be called that?

Finally one last thought - there has been talk of game companies potentially placing on the game box what genre a game is, similar to an ESRB rating. Is this a good or a bad idea? And what would qualify a game for the RPG icon?  

[nitnit]

I wanted to separate my answer from my post.


In the past I thought that any game with leveling up was an RPG. However, now that I have the experiences of playing actual real life paper RPGs, and games like Fallout and Planescape Torment, I find myself thinking that the RPG title is overused nowadays.

While, for example, Chrono Trigger is a fantastic game... I didn't really play any roles. I took a spikey haired guy with a sword through time in a cool story and fought some interesting foes and unforgettable allies. However, other than occasionally saying "yes" or "no" I didn't really direct Crono, and beyond his equipment and potentially name, I didn't customize him either. Hell (spoiler written in white) he was dead for a portion of the game (end spoiler)

So while I love CT, I think it needs a new genre... while I hate throwing "j" in front of stuff, I'll probably be calling them "jRPGs" from now on.

However, while I feel that we should be careful of how we label games - if we label them at all - I think we need to be more critical as a whole to games like Mass Effect and Fallout 3. Both of these were hailed as masterpieces, both winning some game of the year awards, and were praised for their "masterful storytelling" and how they improved the RPG genre. I'm sorry, but while these two titles were fun, they were really more like action games with some RPG stuff thrown in there.

(Just to clarify, I'd say that Fallout 3 was more RPGish - but sucked in terms of an actual story, and Mass Effect had a pretty well told story but wasn't really compelling enough for a second play through)

So yeah. While I can't really say they aren't RPGs, Fallout 3, Mass Effect, and all these other new modern RPGs need to take a page from their older ancestors (I'm especially looking at you F3) for storytelling and compelling characters.

As for labeling of games... I think it has become out of hand. We've categorized everything into pretty much FPS, RPG, Adventure/Action, RTS, MMO, Puzzle, Racing, and Sports... and I guess Party is a genre. This makes labeling a game like Fallout 3 difficult. If you call it RPG, all the hardcore RPG fans will rear their heads, if you call it an FPS, all the hardcore FPS fans will whine there isn't enough shooting going on.  

[Taenessity]

To me, an RPG represents a different kind of a world where you can represent yourself in a completely different way; a hero, a villain, or ever a bystander trolling a*****e. It lets you explore a different place almost like reading a book. You can make or break your persona. Make yourself strong or weak. It really is just a role-play of yourself or who you want to be.

 

[darkslasherX]

Hooray, a real intelligent discussion thread. It'll probably devolve into a flaming match in 2 or 3 pages, though.


I feel that the name "RPG" really does describe too many games, as well. Because of this, though, it makes it hard to delineate where the properly-named genres should be. However, I'll do my best to express how I think the naming system would be neater.

Also, the term "RPG" is sometimes deceptive, since you might not actually be making too many decisions for the character you're supposed to be playing the role of, but it's been in use so long that it'll probably be next to impossible to come up with a better name that sticks.

There's the basic type of RPG that always seems to have many of the same elements: 4 characters (or somewhere close) in the party, a variety of equipment, level-ups, an engaging story, random encounters, boss battles, a final boss that's harder than everything else, orchestral/symphonic soundtrack, side quests, fantasy or futuristic world (or sometimes both), etc. Even this group seems to be too broad, though, because of the sheer number of games that fit this category. I guess this group could be split into "monster-taming" and "party-building" RPGs, but there isn't really a clear-cut distinction between the two in all cases, so I guess I'll leave that group as it is, and call it "RPG", or perhaps "core RPG". Good examples of what fits here are Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, etc.

There's also the type of RPG with level-ups, equipment, etc., that also has tactical or strategy elements to it, such as Fire Emblem. I think this type of game deserves its own group because its gameplay differs so much from the basic type of RPG. The name "strategy RPG" is already in use, and it fits, so that works.

There's also a type of RPG that happens in real-time, usually in a 3-D world and in first person, and often with a gun in the player's hands. I can't really think of a name that fits this group perfectly, but I think "action RPG" is close.


Lastly, I feel that game designers should leave the genre off of the game box, for the simple reason that gaming genres blur. If someone wanted to, they could make a game that was a puzzle game, an RPG, a racing game, and an FPS all at the same time, and putting "FPS/RPG/puzzle/racing" on the box would just be ugly.  

[nitnit]

It can be argued however that the core RPG would be something like Planescape or Fallout - one main character whom is highly customizable, turn based combat (or similar), wide cast of NPCs to interact with, party members whom are more of NPCs than player characters etc.  

[Mirri the Sneak]

I'll keep my post short.

To me, most games are RPGs; they are a form of entertainment in which you don the role of the hero and follow their story, sometimes even making it your own in some small way. The games that I wouldn't define as RPGs would be Tetris, Brain Age, and other such games with no real story backing them up.

What I believe to be the general definition of RPG is the turn-based RPG, things like Final Fantasy, Pokemon, and Dragon Quest. The standard fare when someone mentions the phrase when referring to video games.  

[Kirei_chan]

Mirri the Sneak

I'll keep my post short.

To me, most games are RPGs; they are a form of entertainment in which you don the role of the hero and follow their story, sometimes even making it your own in some small way. The games that I wouldn't define as RPGs would be Tetris, Brain Age, and other such games with no real story backing them up.

What I believe to be the general definition of RPG is the turn-based RPG, things like Final Fantasy, Pokemon, and Dragon Quest. The standard fare when someone mentions the phrase when referring to video games.

I agree with this.
As technology has improved over the years, it has become easier to create more intricate, complex gaming experiences. With this comes the expansion of a more interactive gameplay, thus making it somewhat easier to blur the lines of genres that were once set in stone almost since their establishment. One example of this would be The World Ends With You. While it has been labeled as an RPG, it is in no way a conventional RPG; battles are fast-paced in real time, your weapons are a handful of pins, and battles can be completely avoided (though there are times that battles are forced). However I don't think that it's not an RPG, in fact I think it's just the opposite. Many games like this are still RPGs, because they tell a story. I believe that an RPG doesn't necessarily have to be customizable; the purpose of a RPG is to lead the character(s) through the story, much like a book, like whoever brought that up said. And as technology has improved and the genre lines have been blurred, I think the definition of the genres themselves have changed as such.  

[yeahime]

I'd say a RP(v)G is defined as a video game where the effectiveness of a character in battle can increase without the skill of the player increasing. This is done through leveling of stats. Though, many games have elements of this, i wouldn't define them all as RPG's.

I think the term roleplay is a bit misleading as you don't necessarily play a role. And it is very unlike table top RPG's, while borrowing elements of them.  

[Cloud Varis]

All this talk of story elements is great, but many people seem to forget that other genres are named after their gameplay, not their story. "Platformer" doesn't inherently mean that the story has to do with saving princesses who are always in another &$%#*@ castle. However, you're probably going to be jumping on some platforms.

RPG is indeed a deceptive name, because it does not describe the gameplay mechanics of the genre very well. But I believe the game mechanics make the RPG. (Not epic stories, because RPGs can have crappy stories just like everything else) RPGs have a broad set of mechanics, though, which is why there are often subsets. Often jRPGs will have turn-based combat, but there are exceptions like Star Ocean and the Tales games, which are like half-way Action RPGs, and like Final Fantasy Tactics and Fire Emblem, which are tactical RPGs, which I consider another subset. Then we have Western RPGs, which are quite often either Action RPGs or Diablo-esque RPGs (with stats based on table-top RPGs and dice rolls). So.. I prefer to call them by more specific names than wRPGs. Games like Too Human, Devil May Cry, Kingdom Hearts would all be considered Action RPGs. I would call games like Diablo, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale, WoW... any games with sort of active skills, dice rolls, tabletop-style stats, and a bit too much inventory organization... diablo-esque RPGs? I don't have a good name for those, aside from dungeon-running RPGs.

And I don't know why, but this seams like a vital game mechanic for RPGs: If I walk up to a civilian and press A, they say something. Doesn't have to be important, maybe just "Oh Jim, where did you go, we have to be back before midnight.." or even "What?! Who are you? You can't just barge into another person's house, you know!! Hurry up, gitout before I call the authorities!" (Said civilian than sits and calmly watches you loot his somewhat conspicuous treasure chests sitting by his fireplace, which apparently contain five ethers and two M-Power Up items), but the ability to interact with NPCs has to be there. This is why I would consider Castlevania an RPG, whereas Metroid is not. For the record, I consider platformer/RPGs action RPGs.

RPGs aren't the only genre with subsets, although they certainly have the largest number of them. Shooters can be subdivided into third- and first-person shooters (God willing, they'll never make a second-person RPG o_0 ), platformers can be roughly subdivided into platformers, Metroidvania games (which is pretty much Metroid and Castlevania), and Megaman, which has enough platformers to be its own friggin' genre. (Want me to count? 1-9, x1-x8, Zero 1-5, I think, and Net Transmission (the gamecube Megaman game), Command Mission, and about 4 GB and GBC spin-offs. That's around 28 games.)
And then we can't forget the fusion games. Third-person shooter/RPG, like Resident Evil games, etc etc etc.

What did I accomplish with this post?
I'm not entirely sure.
In short, I think RPGs are/should be named for their gameplay mechanics, and are further subdivided into things like jRPGs, Action RPGs, Tactical RPGs, etc.
Also, "Press A to talk"  

[Houkito]

Cloud Varis

Also, "Press A to talk"

Agreed.

There was a time when talking with NPCs was neccessary in order to obtain the correct information to further advance through the game. This made the RPGing experience more real and believeable through the eyes of the character, not the gamer.

Nowadays RPGs are pretty linear, making things a lot more convenient but I can't help but feel as if they've lost their charm. But I'd have to give thanks to FFXII for bringing back this element.