Capitalism, the Death of the World

[The_Pathan]

TOPIC MOVED TO GENERAL DISCUSSIONS: REASON = Wrong forum.  

[divineseraph]

Slick Southpaw

divineseraph

Or, they could do something useful other than cater to our markets and use their manpower making hospitals and food for a sick and starving world. We all could. But, I guess you're right, keeping our trade and market of cheap plastics intact is more important than general world well-being.

The problem is that unless you can make something cheaply, you can't really supply the poor and give to the sick. You still need mass production of products, whether you like it or not.
Take pharmaceutical companies for example. Some have been able to make medicines generic and cheaper to the general public. How else do you think organizations like Doctors Without Borders can support itself and be able to help those in third world countries? There are these special protein packages that are handed out to starving mothers and children in Africa, nets handed out to help prevent death by malaria, and people are trying to come up with cheaper ways to come up with medication, especially for dealing with HIV and AIDS because cheaper products mean more mass availability.

Now I will concede and say that I find that too many people are focused on CONSUMERISM rather than helping others. And now, in this current economy, it's biting them in the a**.

divineseraph

Bribery. How would you bribe in a system where anything you could bribe with is free to be taken? And for what reason would you bribe?

Same way people with loosely organized societies did in the past. Skills. People would band together for protection. Warriors and fighters would receive compensation for their skills to protect people.
A steady food supply, clean water, a safe place to raise a family (or to just live in peace); those are high priorities for people. Those have value because people NEED items. People need good quality food to survive, people need clean water to survive, and they need shelter. As a result those will always have a value, even if you take the concept of "money" away. Bribery will take form of whatever skill is needed. To survive, to enjoy life.
And what about something like electricity? What incentive will people have to keep the generators up and going? It's certainly not essential, but if everything is free, what incentive would there to keep things going? Are you hoping that the good will of human beings would have doctors making home visits free and there is no costs for having an ambulance take you to the ER?

divineseraph

Illegal drugs- You can't sell them, there's no money. You could trade them, but again, it would be much more difficult to trade produce for coke, and less rewarding since what you would get you could automatically have anyway from working.

But some stuff you can't get everywhere. Marijuana will grow best in certain places. And then you have to consider the process of trying to produce the most "potent" weed. People will have cross-species breeding (okay, I know that TECHNICALLY there's officially one species, but there are still different types based on where they grow ecologically) and race to make sure that their stuff is THE BEST stuff. Because the best stuff is going to get you more customers, a reputation. Even if it's free, you'd have a prize plant stock, therefore, simply by making it potent, you have placed value in it.
The only reason why drugs, sex, tv, fashion, toys, have value is because humans place a certain value on it. Drugs have a high value with some people, and with others, it has absolutely no value. Same with alcohol. Quality of a product also increases its value as well.

divineseraph

Same goes with prostitution.

Personally I always thought that having sex with other people to be a lot easier than doing drugs, but that's me. But prostitution isn't free, and sex has been an excellent component for getting something you want.
You have a pretty blue vase? I want it, I'll sleep with you and give you a blow job for it.
Barter, plain and simple. I want something, but I'll have to do something in exchange for receiving it. I'm not going to have sex with you just because you ask.

You just want a barter system.

divineseraph

... In Rome. Sea shells were also used! I demand that stores accept sea shells in capitalism! I value it, so you should too! Making everything free will eliminate currency. Salt was used in the days when there was no such thing as industry- There needed to be trade as there wasn't as much production, so there was less to go around. That's no longer an issue.

Salt had to be mined. It was so important that is where the word "salary" comes from. People were paid in salt, people bought slaves with salt because salt was VALUABLE. Sea shells were VALUABLE. The community thought it was valuable; not just one or two people. You still had to acquire sea shells that were of value through skill, you still had to mine for the salt, and make it into sizable quantities available for commercial use.
The items were considered valuable because they have a significant purpose. Salt can add flavor, it can sterilize wounds, it can preserve food, it had ritual cleaning purposes. Sea shells were prized because they made fine jewelry, combs, used in mosaics, used for all sorts of decorations.

Again, it's a case of people establishing a certain value on items.

divineseraph

We lure them in with the idea that they can make it big. And they can. If they are born lucky. America has a lot of wealth, and that is a big draw in.

It is. My family immigrated from Hungary after it was freed from Austria-Hungary empire. We were poor peasants, who settled in Michigan. We worked as farmers, and several of us joined in the military. And with a strong work ethic, and a strong belief that academics will bring us out of poverty, we managed to climb out of the poorer class and make it into middle class economically. My grandmother managed to raise 7 children as a single mother. All went to college, and all are living successful lives.
I volunteer at a shelter. I've seen the good, the bad, and the ******** ugly side of the dream of America.
However, I know that even though there is a lot of ******** with immigrants, they do have a better chance of surviving off our WELFARE system than living in Mexico. There are so many families that would have starved if they stayed in Mexico; here in the US, even if they're being taken advantage of (some, not all), have said they'd rather stay because there's such an improvement in quality of life. I've been down to the barrios in Mexico, I've built homes in Tijuana, and seen the s**t that they live in.
Even the worst city slums (granted, I haven't to been huge cities like Los Angeles and NYC) are nowhere near as terrible as being in the slums of Mexico.

divineseraph

You have to work somewhere, and unless you're lucky, it's going to be in production or at least directly under someone else in the corporate ladder. When you're in the system, you're being exploited and given just enough to not revolt.

But unless you own your own company, your own clinic, you're going to have to work your way up. I don't see how that's a trick of the system. Whether you're in the police force, or working in insurance or on the production line, a video game company or in the movies; you still have to report to someone. Someone has to manage the paperwork, someone has to make sure that police officers in mind, someone has to make sure that the makeup artists use the right concoctions, someone has to make sure that the graphics you are using are economically viable for the company. How is this an exploitation of the system again?
I'm training to be a nurse in the army. I'm still going to have to report what goes on my floor to the doctors, and my superiors as well as direct those under me to do particular tasks.

It all goes back to your training and your skills. If you are good with clients, or you are exceptional to your police force, you have the potential to advance. When you advance, it means you have more responsibilities.

divineseraph

Yes, the lucky part assumes that you manage to get a loan, and that your money isn't swallowed by the person you bought the factory from, or that someone doesn't beat you to the punch.

You get a loan based on credit. If you have bad credit, then you're not going to get a loan from accredited banks. Luck has nothing to do with your credit.

And when you buy that factory, you should have done some investigation as well as seek out legal advice to be sure that you're purchasing from a decent seller.
None of this has to do with luck, aside from hoping that someone else won't beat you to the punch. And usually, there's a bid on the factory. As in, you see the other bids that people are making. And that adds to your decision making skills on whether or not this is really worth it.

Again, I fail to see how luck is such a HUGE factor unless you're gambling in the casinos or playing the lottery.

divineseraph

Luck plays a lar

ge part in the system- Remember, 90% of the population can not be wealthy. And luck is not a good way to run the world.

All I got is that 90% of the population can't be wealthy. The rest makes no sense.

divineseraph

The way we remove human greed is by removing the tools to utilize it. That tool right now is money- It is anonymous, it is a symbol of power, time and labor, and it can be obtained in vast amounts through luck or cheating, and everyone needs it. As such, it is the perfect tool for the greedy.

Again, I disagree with you, I stated above why, and I'll restate it again. Removing money will give people an excuse to make something else a currency. Whether it's salt, shoes, cocoa beans, sexual activities, certain skills, rabbit feet, micro chips, hats, kleenex boxes, or monarch butterflies, people WILL put a value in things. Why? because even something as simple as salt or fish scales can be elevated as to the status of money. Because human beings are greedy, because some people have not been able to separate the will to survive and self-interest from the will to survived and selfishness.

And there needs to be someone making billions of dollars over it? The problem I have with mass production is that it's a front for someone to make a whole bunch of money from cheap labor- If the energy that went to the ruler went into the produce and the workers, everyone would be happier and products would be better.

Of course. Everything has a value. That's the premise. Everyone works, everyone shares equally. The incentive would be to be able to have of the share. I' not sure you're understanding my system- I am not promoting barter or a hippy commune. I support an organized, industrial, egalitarian system with no classes or trade in which workers are allowed free access to produce in return for a measured amount of labor in production, either assets or services.

But for WHAT would they trade it? I understand that not all drugs are equal, but if there's no reason to sell drugs since you can get the same thing more easily anyway, why would you?

You have a pretty blue vase? I'll go to the store and get my own. And you're an idiot, see above.

I KNOW that's where it came from, that's also irrelevant. It's no longer an issue now that we have industry.

And I say ******** the whole thing. Let's not ******** anyone and just have a little bit of equality.

The paperwork is a large logical fallacy of begging the question- it justifies itself through itself, through money, through itself again. The complications in business are products of capitalism, not inherent facts of nature.

No, no it won't.  

[demeter_kid]

that's lot of info....and money.  

[divineseraph]

demeter_kid

that's lot of info....and money.

pretty disgusting when there are those owning multiple party boats larger than three of my home combined, and there are those starving in africa and dying of diseases we cured decades ago.  

[EtSh Cool]

The Islamic economic is the solution for all the economic problems  

[divineseraph]

EGYPTIAN 4 EVER

The Islamic economic is the solution for all the economic problems

Considering middle-eastern poverty rates, I disagree.

The perfect system of economy is no system of economy.  

[Lysander the silent]

Slick Southpaw

divineseraph

Alright, who else has noticed the bullshit going on with our idiotic economic system? I mean, far beyond our petty number system bullshit where nobody has a job and people are losing their homes. I also mean beyond the fact that the rich own all the means of production and force the lower class into labor for the profit of the wealthy through supposed prospects of "freedom".

Corruption is a part of every economic system, whether it's capitalism, communism, or whatever. Human greed is going to taint it, no matter how awesome an economic policy is.

divineseraph

Now, this money will be spread around the corporations so that they may use it to hire workers and buy materials so they can continue making and selling products. Basically, we're taking money and giving it to the rich so they can hire the poor so the poor can buy from the rich. Like that's not ******** up at all.

People should be held accountable for their actions. I would have rather have the company file for bankruptcy and change their policies.
If they reformed their policies there would also be a better balance between a worker and the people who own stocks in the company, supervise the company, ect.
Because when it gets down to it, you have skilled and unskilled people.
Skilled people get paid more, on a general basis. Unksilled labor is going to be paid less.

divineseraph

If we took .01% of the money... That's 1/100 of a single percent, we could feed over 230,000 people for a whole year. Imagine what we could do with .5%, or even a whole 1%. Imagine the hospitals we could build, and the schools, and the food processing facilities and water cleansing plants.

Why are we so willing to let the world fall to s**t, so that we can keep the rich in their mansions and leer jets?

Good question. However, presidential policy, no matter how stupid=/=economic system. To say that capitalism is the death of the world, is a bit much, personally. At least we don't have a laissez faire market and quite frankly, I like working up to a career. And get paid for my skills. People are not equal in the terms of skills, and should be paid justly.

Most of that which you say is great, I agree completely, and especially for people like us who are really going to have to work at finding a job. People don't understand what hell communism unleashed on Russia. The common people (who were supposed to benefit the most) ended up being poorer than they started out as, and they were starving on top of it, all because of the greed of the government.  

[Lysander the silent]

divineseraph

EGYPTIAN 4 EVER

The Islamic economic is the solution for all the economic problems

Considering middle-eastern poverty rates, I disagree.

The perfect system of economy is no system of economy.

That's impossible, I hope you understand that. Even way back even before the time of Christ, there was an economic system. It has existed as long as humanity has been around. Barter, trading goods for services or services for goods, a proper society, even if its just two people, relies on the flow of goods and services which is an economic system. Before you open your virtual trap to speak, do your research.  

[The_Pathan]

Consindering how the old arabs used to work, with their traing, tax system, leadership, land fertility production,and good economy, I prefer the Islamic system, cause then we don't find people sleeping in the streets.  

[Lysander the silent]

The_Pathan

Consindering how the old arabs used to work, with their traing, tax system, leadership, land fertility production,and good economy, I prefer the Islamic system, cause then we don't find people sleeping in the streets.

I disagree, because that was medieval times.... economic systems are supposed to evolve with the centuries, and those that don't are doomed to fail.

- pax vobiscum