Hard/Soft Polytheism

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Starlock

*shrug* Think what you want, I suppose, Sanguina. I think as a hard polytheist you probably simply can't understand the way in which these other people relate to the divine.

Yup, you're right. Because it's totally not possible that Sanguina was ever a soft polytheist and found the hard polytheist view to make more sense or fit her beliefs better. Yup. Totally not possible rolleyes .

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That's perfectly fine,

Is it?
You don't seem to have the tone that it is.

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but I think you should know that some of what you said probably would come off as a bit derogatory towards soft polytheists with that accusation that they're not taking things seriously. Perhaps it's no wonder then that soft polytheists might get uppity with hard polytheists with such statements! I believe they are serious; they simply have their own different manner of working that's distinct from yours and from mine.

Let me put it this way.
It's pretty goddamn derogatory to me for say, my employer to go "Oh you're Barbara's daughter; that's all I need to relate about you."
"But..I'm also a capable sales person! And I have some management experience as well. And I've had food service experience that is helpful tool."
"LOL but I have other people I call on to deal with those issues! I just need you as Barbara's daughter."

That's pretty ******** insulting. Kind of the same way it can be insulting to a deity and hard polytheists for a SP to go "Oh Freyja's a love goddess."
"What about Aphrodite? ********. What about Freyja's other parts???"
"Oh I just like Freyja better. And I don't need to worry about her different parts because I use different gods for those!"

So, if soft polytheists want to whine and cry about how the big-bad-mean hard polytheists are cracking down on them, perhaps they should check themselves first and make sure they're not treating these aspects as simple cake ingredients? I can't imagine how disrespectful it is to their over-arching Goddess to treat her many faces as commodities.  

[doistu]

Haha, just a musing.

The soft polytheists here and on my other site appear to get more upset that the hard polytheists...very tedious link but perhaps different kinds of personalties hook up better with the hard/soft concept.

Just an idea.  

[Shearaha]

When I first started looking into paths other then Christiandom, I had a very soft polythiest view. The more studying I've done and the more conversations I've had the more of a hard polythiest I've become. There are still some areas where I have a soft polythiest view. The main one being that I feel that all gods are connected in the same way that all humans are connected. Humans are all one species, one race with different ethnicities. I tend to view the gods as the same way. While they are individuals they are all still divine.  

[ncsweet]

I have a mixed view of it all. On a basic level I believe that there is an ultimate GOD and GODDESS, and that all other Gods and Goddesses are but aspects of them. However, I also firmly believe that the aspects are individual beings/entities, that are not interchangeable with one another.

I personally would never presume to call on random deities that I didn't have some sort of established relationship with (unless there was a specific reason to believe that such contact would be welcome).

To me though it's hard to separate the cultures that are "attached" to the deities, and to just call on one, because it has the "skills" I need, when I don't know anything about the cultures involved - seems disrespectful. Again it seems to come down to a distinct difference in the way one views deity - either as companions, friends, family, parental figure, etc... versus as a "tool", or a simple variable in a spell.

Too, I found that if you try to plug the "soft poly" concept into things like the Wheel of the Year, even the Triple Goddess - it quickly breaks down when you realize that many of these Gods and Goddesses have myths of their own, and they just don't fit where one is trying to force them to fit.  

[Starlock]

doistu

Aww starlock, I'm sorry. Of course however you choose to do things is fine. I didn't mean to be snooty about it. Bright blessings

Er... I wasn't taking anything you said as a personal attack, Doistu and I don't really think you came off as snooty. I was hoping to raise some questions about what a "proper" understanding of divinity is. xd

Violet, all I was really meaning to say with that statement is that once someone has a particular view of something, it is more difficult for them to see alternative perspectives. It wasn't meant as an insult and I'm sorry you took it that way. The same applies to a soft polytheist trying to understand hard polytheism. Or frankly, me trying to understand why someone can see hard and soft polytheism as mutually exclusive choices, an either-or dichotomy.

Regardless of that, I'd have to disagree that it a soft approach is, as you seem to be saying, necessarily derogatory or insulting. Are there soft polytheists who are sloppy? Sure, I imagine there are. I wouldn't paint them all with a brush, however, that insinuates they don't take what they do seriously. I imagine there are also sloppy hard polytheists; I wouldn't paint them all with the same brush either. It'd be nice to see both groups not make presumptions about each other's approaches and/or seriousness of practice and instead simply aim to learn from each other's perspectives (even if that learning simply is knowing what it is that you disagree with or dislike!).  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Starlock

Violet, all I was really meaning to say with that statement is that once someone has a particular view of something, it is more difficult for them to see alternative perspectives.

Difficult, but not impossible.
It takes a bit to see from the other perspective, but it can be done.
I can understand why and how someone would view deities in a soft polytheistic lens. Doesn't make a great deal of sense to me as I feel that it ignores a good bit of mythology, but I can understand it.

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It wasn't meant as an insult and I'm sorry you took it that way. The same applies to a soft polytheist trying to understand hard polytheism. Or frankly, me trying to understand why someone can see hard and soft polytheism as mutually exclusive choices, an either-or dichotomy.

Sweet up there I feel has a good middle road view. If I had to mix in some soft polytheism into my beliefs I think that's where I'd fall in as well. And it's still pretty respectful to both views.

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Regardless of that, I'd have to disagree that it a soft approach is, as you seem to be saying, necessarily derogatory or insulting. Are there soft polytheists who are sloppy? Sure, I imagine there are. I wouldn't paint them all with a brush, however, that insinuates they don't take what they do seriously.

I don't recall saying at any point that all soft polytheists are the same and believe/practice the same. I am well aware of sloppy SPs. I see it a good bit.

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I imagine there are also sloppy hard polytheists; I wouldn't paint them all with the same brush either. It'd be nice to see both groups not make presumptions about each other's approaches and/or seriousness of practice and instead simply aim to learn from each other's perspectives (even if that learning simply is knowing what it is that you disagree with or dislike!).

Erm, how would someone go about being a sloppy hard polytheist? confused
I really don't think I've insinuated anywhere that soft polytheists are not serious about their practices.
And as I've stated before, I can understand why someone would feel more comfortable with soft polytheism. I was soft polytheist for a good while. Then I read the myths and lore of my gods and it dawned on me that to think they were all just facets of an over-arching god wasn't giving them enough credit.

Out of curiosity, those who are soft polytheists, do you see YHVH as being a facet of the God?  

[ncsweet]

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Out of curiosity, those who are soft polytheists, do you see YHVH as being a fact of the God?

That was really mean!!! gonk blaugh

I suppose technically, but I'd really rather not go there. That would open a whole debate into "paganism" itself, since it's defined as religions that are non-Abrahamic - so if you suddenly include the Abrahamic God as a facet of "the GOD"... messy, very messy. sweatdrop  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

ncsweet

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Out of curiosity, those who are soft polytheists, do you see YHVH as being a fact of the God?

That was really mean!!! gonk blaugh

I suppose technically, but I'd really rather not go there. That would open a whole debate into "paganism" itself, since it's defined as religions that are non-Abrahamic - so if you suddenly include the Abrahamic God as a facet of "the GOD"... messy, very messy. sweatdrop

Sorry that was supposed to be "facet" not "fact" xd

Well, it is "all gods are facets of The God"... wink .

It just strikes me as odd to see all of the non-YHVH gods as simply being facets of an over-arching God, but the god of a desert people gets to be his own person.  

[ncsweet]

I completely see your point - my new argument is WE ARE ALL PAGANS!!! xd twisted

Who wants to bring this one to Tea? blaugh  

[Starlock]

Sloppy hard polytheist could mean not doing thorough research, eh? I'm sure we could think of a few other ways in which it could be sloppy. Those who disagree with pantheon mixing would consider doing so sloppy or improper, to a fashion.

And sorry I interpreted you as being a bit hard-nosed about SP's Violet. You can come off pretty rough sometimes, so hopefully my err is forgivable offense. Thanks for clarifying. xd

On the YHVH being a facet of the God... that's an interesting question, really. I wonder if there might be some Christian-Pagans who view the God and Goddess (and every other deity) as a facet of YHVH. I don't know a Christian-Pagan personally, though, and I can't say I've run across this particular view. Wouldn't surprise me if someone had it though. As noted, our human attempts to categorize the divine are probably pitiable from its point of view. sweatdrop  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Starlock

Sloppy hard polytheist could mean not doing thorough research, eh? I'm sure we could think of a few other ways in which it could be sloppy. Those who disagree with pantheon mixing would consider doing so sloppy or improper, to a fashion.

True.
Oi. Pantheon mixing gonk .

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And sorry I interpreted you as being a bit hard-nosed about SP's Violet. You can come off pretty rough sometimes, so hopefully my err is forgivable offense. Thanks for clarifying. xd

I know.
And no worries.

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On the YHVH being a facet of the God... that's an interesting question, really. I wonder if there might be some Christian-Pagans who view the God and Goddess (and every other deity) as a facet of YHVH.

So making every other god and goddess simply a facet of YHVH?
I find that a little...improper.

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I don't know a Christian-Pagan personally, though, and I can't say I've run across this particular view. Wouldn't surprise me if someone had it though. As noted, our human attempts to categorize the divine are probably pitiable from its point of view. sweatdrop

Oh Christo-pagans xp .  

[Namikikyo]

I've thought this over a lot lately after joining this guild and watching all of you, And I've come to the conclusion that they are so different that they HAVE to be seperate, it would be like having a personality disorder..

{See what this guild has done to me? It's made me THINK! lol}

But I can't seem to shake the soft idea of the Gods being made of the same type of divine energy, But not the same people... Infact completely different people..

Almost like humans;

We have blacks,Whites, Italians, Mexicans, etc. But if you cut into us, we bleed red. Yet we have never met and have infact evolved so diffrently.. I think it could also be applied to the divine..

We are not facets of one being, Yet we bleed the same blood.

BLAH!

Maybe I'm thinking too hard on the matter... I'm trying my best not to be sloppy/messy/etc..

{I guess, I'm still going through my whole thought process here. It's a whole hell of a lot harder then I figured..}

._____.

 

[Sanguina Cruenta]

You mean same species, different races? wink It's not a bad analogy, actually. Or maybe separate subspecies if we're talking between pantheons and similar.

I don't think it's so much of a stretch to imagine they're all made from the same "stuff". After all, we're all made of meat. There's probably some god-equivalent.  

[Morgandria]

Namikikyo

But I can't seem to shake the soft idea of the Gods being made of the same type of divine energy, But not the same people... Infact completely different people..

Almost like humans;

We have blacks,Whites, Italians, Mexicans, etc. But if you cut into us, we bleed red. Yet we have never met and have infact evolved so diffrently.. I think it could also be applied to the divine..

We are not facets of one being, Yet we bleed the same blood.

BLAH!

Maybe I'm thinking too hard on the matter... I'm trying my best not to be sloppy/messy/etc..

{I guess, I'm still going through my whole thought process here. It's a whole hell of a lot harder then I figured..}

._____.

One of the things I believe about the world we live in is that we all come from a divine Source. The Source is in all things: we are all created from the same Source, but in that creation we are all also distinct, and individual. The Source is the Universal Life-force, and yet it is seperate, above and beyond. (I'm a panentheist.) Each individual thing in existence a small piece of the Source, sent out to experience life in its' own unique way - and when we die, we all return to the Source, bringing that experience with us.

So Gods, people, plants, dirt: it's all the Source, split off in different ways and amounts, to experience life.  

[GoddessAttuned]

I am polytheist myself ...I suppose I am hard byt your definition between the two.
But I do believe on some level or another all gods and goddess's communicate and assosiate with one another at times but I don't think all of them are exactly equal in their spirtitual states and powers. I always invisioned to me that there is a sort of higharchy in their world, they assosiate with one another but are not the same.I don't understand the idea of all god's and goddess's being of the same thing, I would imagine, like a human being they are all different, different names, different places that they come from.
Now I would never be angry at anothers beliefs these are simply my own and I would love to get feed back on this