Nihonjinno Buki

[Ambassador Jackson]

Let us say that things had turned out a little differently for Japan after World War 2 (I LOVE alternate history). What do I mean? Well, they were treated like Germany was. Although occupied by America, they are still permitted to make war, and, in this, the modern day, have a fully modern military to do so with, just like Germany. Secondly,gun laws are not nearly so strict as they are in today's Japan. With the eradication (by the Americans, of course) of the 19th century laws forbidding the private ownership of swords, the basis for forbidding the private ownership of firearms was not quite there. So basically, we have a Japan that is permitted to make war, and that has a populace permitted to own such items as handguns. Finally, Japan does make war. The Phillipines and Indonesia have collapsed into a veritable bloodbath, and with America and Europe tied up in Africa and the Middle East, and with China and Russia ttoo busy dealing with their "sibling rivalry", it generally falls to Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan to police the Pacific, with Japan generally taking the leading role, and South Korea and Taiwan mostly getting involved to gain some much desired combat experience for their troops, which might prove lifesaving when the Commies invade. Keep in mind that some of the groups our new, more militant Japanese friends are fighting have ex-Filipino/Indonesian military naval and air assets, so good warships and fighter jets are a must have.

So we have the situation hammered out. Now here is the point of the thread. If Japan had motive to build military equipment that is just as good as what you would find in an American, British, French, or German arsenal, what would it be like? How would it look? What would it be called? Keep in mind that, although Japan does build modern military equipment, it's designed solely for defense, and a lot of it isn't quite up to par with America and Europe. In this universe, Japan needs equipment for offense that is on par with America and Europe. What would they call their tanks? What kind of warships would they build? Would they build medium aircraft carriers or supercarriers? Would they have a Stryker equivalent? What would they name that? What kinds of fighter jets would they make without American assistance? If you don't have F-15s and F-2s, what do you use? Would you need a carrier born fighter? What kind of rifle would be churned out for soldiers if the weapon was actually expected to be used? What kind of civilian legal firearms would be produced? Who would buy them?  

[Floyd]

One of the biggest issues I have with alternative history and outcomes is that people tend to ignore the trends of history where they really matter.

Example: Japan, like Russia, was a follower rather than a leader in research and development. Most articles I've read on Japan's military R&D gave them poor to average grades, depending on the specific technology they were working on.

One example I can cite is that Japan's military was quite good at simple technological changes such as adapting their aircraft launched torpedos to work in shallow water for the attack on Perl Harbor.

But when it came to adapting designs from other nations like Germany and the U.S., their engineering and machine tool and die was unable to match ours in mass production. The Germans who tried to help the Japanese submarine fleet commented on how noisy their propulsion motors and propellers were. It was little wonder that their subs were easy targets for the U.S. sonar of that era.

In short, Japan would be doing what Russia and China does. Spying for weapons designs they could crank out as cheaply as possible. Consider this last thought. Without the defeat of Japan by the U.S., they most likely would never had learned the power of the U.S. manufacturing techniques that allowed us to defeat them with the glut of quality weapons we built in that era.

You wouldn't see much originality from Japan had they won, in my view.  

[Fresnel]

The would steal other nations' weapons and make cheap knockoffs, just like they've always done. Look at the Nambu and Luger pistols. Prime example right there.

Also, they'd have a massive brownwater navy.  

[OberFeldwebel]

Fresnel

The would steal other nations' weapons and make cheap knockoffs, just like they've always done. Look at the Nambu and Luger pistols. Prime example right there.

Also, they'd have a massive brownwater navy.

I got in an internet argument about how the Chinese QBZ-xx is a ripoff of the FAMAS.  

[Stoic Socialist]

Japan needs to import nearly every single raw material, that's a very important piece of information. They have nearly no iron or petroleum reserves...
At least, that's what I learned in History class.  

[Ambassador Jackson]

Floyd

One of the biggest issues I have with alternative history and outcomes is that people tend to ignore the trends of history where they really matter.

Example: Japan, like Russia, was a follower rather than a leader in research and development. Most articles I've read on Japan's military R&D gave them poor to average grades, depending on the specific technology they were working on.

One example I can cite is that Japan's military was quite good at simple technological changes such as adapting their aircraft launched torpedos to work in shallow water for the attack on Perl Harbor.

But when it came to adapting designs from other nations like Germany and the U.S., their engineering and machine tool and die was unable to match ours in mass production. The Germans who tried to help the Japanese submarine fleet commented on how noisy their propulsion motors and propellers were. It was little wonder that their subs were easy targets for the U.S. sonar of that era.

In short, Japan would be doing what Russia and China does. Spying for weapons designs they could crank out as cheaply as possible. Consider this last thought. Without the defeat of Japan by the U.S., they most likely would never had learned the power of the U.S. manufacturing techniques that allowed us to defeat them with the glut of quality weapons we built in that era.

You wouldn't see much originality from Japan had they won, in my view.

Japan didn't win in this scenario. America beat Japan, but let them keep the ability to make war, and eventually gave them the responsibility of policing the Pacific.

Thing is, some Japanese copies are pretty good. Would such a trend continue? Would America help them out like they do today?  

[Floyd]

Aunt Nagase

Japan didn't win in this scenario. America beat Japan, but let them keep the ability to make war, and eventually gave them the responsibility of policing the Pacific.

Thing is, some Japanese copies are pretty good. Would such a trend continue? Would America help them out like they do today?

Given this specific information, the chances that Japan would rebuild and create an independent weapons development program are quite good.

Keep in mind that Japan was the first to master one of the most profound shifts in metallurgy. Specifically the ability to work iron and carbon into two different forms of steel which, in turn, could be melded into a surgically sharp blade we know as the tachi (or, more commonly called katana) sword.

So there is evidence that Japan can produce quite profound and powerful developments of its own.

I would guess that they would focus on aircraft once the post war era wrapped up. Seeing the loss of their naval forces and the futility of ground battle after being driven back to their own shores, they would most likely rebuild from their strength.

After all, Pearl Harbor was their zenith as far as a successful tactic goes.  

[Fresnel]

Floyd

Aunt Nagase

Japan didn't win in this scenario. America beat Japan, but let them keep the ability to make war, and eventually gave them the responsibility of policing the Pacific.

Thing is, some Japanese copies are pretty good. Would such a trend continue? Would America help them out like they do today?

Given this specific information, the chances that Japan would rebuild and create an independent weapons development program are quite good.

Keep in mind that Japan was the first to master one of the most profound shifts in metallurgy. Specifically the ability to work iron and carbon into two different forms of steel which, in turn, could be melded into a surgically sharp blade we know as the tachi (or, more commonly called katana) sword.

So there is evidence that Japan can produce quite profound and powerful developments of its own.

Oh, they were FAR from the first. They stole the idea from the Chinese, and I doubt the Chinese developed it first either. The Japanese were the only culture psychotic enough to punish themselves by folding the metal 20 times, and even then they only did it out of necessity. Nobody else had to, but Japan has shitty ore deposits. Western cultures folded blades five or six times as a show of skill and blacksmith nut-flexing... but because of that, and the fact that a folded blade is irreparable once broken, most of those blades ended up on a wall.

Quote:

I would guess that they would focus on aircraft once the post war era wrapped up. Seeing the loss of their naval forces and the futility of ground battle after being driven back to their own shores, they would most likely rebuild from their strength.

Also, aircraft carriers, because that's what led us to kicking their asses at sea.  

[Ambassador Jackson]

Fresnel

Floyd

Aunt Nagase

Japan didn't win in this scenario. America beat Japan, but let them keep the ability to make war, and eventually gave them the responsibility of policing the Pacific.

Thing is, some Japanese copies are pretty good. Would such a trend continue? Would America help them out like they do today?

Given this specific information, the chances that Japan would rebuild and create an independent weapons development program are quite good.

Keep in mind that Japan was the first to master one of the most profound shifts in metallurgy. Specifically the ability to work iron and carbon into two different forms of steel which, in turn, could be melded into a surgically sharp blade we know as the tachi (or, more commonly called katana) sword.

So there is evidence that Japan can produce quite profound and powerful developments of its own.

Oh, they were FAR from the first. They stole the idea from the Chinese, and I doubt the Chinese developed it first either. The Japanese were the only culture psychotic enough to punish themselves by folding the metal 20 times, and even then they only did it out of necessity. Nobody else had to, but Japan has shitty ore deposits. Western cultures folded blades five or six times as a show of skill and blacksmith nut-flexing... but because of that, and the fact that a folded blade is irreparable once broken, most of those blades ended up on a wall.

You have no idea how the katana is used, do you? You don't bash the blades together in combat like in the West. A katana fight would only hast a few seconds. Both combatants would attempt to draw and strike in one swing, and whoever accomplished this first was the winner, and the loser was dead, dying, or critically injured. As a result, katana's generally didn't break. They didn't see heavy enough use to. That pretty much makes the whole repair comment pointless.

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I would guess that they would focus on aircraft once the post war era wrapped up. Seeing the loss of their naval forces and the futility of ground battle after being driven back to their own shores, they would most likely rebuild from their strength.

Also, aircraft carriers, because that's what led us to kicking their asses at sea.

Right, but would they prefer medium carriers (Charles de Gaulle class type) or supercarriers (Nimitz class type)?  

[uryu ishida]

Aunt Nagase

Fresnel

Floyd

Aunt Nagase

Japan didn't win in this scenario. America beat Japan, but let them keep the ability to make war, and eventually gave them the responsibility of policing the Pacific.

Thing is, some Japanese copies are pretty good. Would such a trend continue? Would America help them out like they do today?

Given this specific information, the chances that Japan would rebuild and create an independent weapons development program are quite good.

Keep in mind that Japan was the first to master one of the most profound shifts in metallurgy. Specifically the ability to work iron and carbon into two different forms of steel which, in turn, could be melded into a surgically sharp blade we know as the tachi (or, more commonly called katana) sword.

So there is evidence that Japan can produce quite profound and powerful developments of its own.

Oh, they were FAR from the first. They stole the idea from the Chinese, and I doubt the Chinese developed it first either. The Japanese were the only culture psychotic enough to punish themselves by folding the metal 20 times, and even then they only did it out of necessity. Nobody else had to, but Japan has shitty ore deposits. Western cultures folded blades five or six times as a show of skill and blacksmith nut-flexing... but because of that, and the fact that a folded blade is irreparable once broken, most of those blades ended up on a wall.

You have no idea how the katana is used, do you? You don't bash the blades together in combat like in the West. A katana fight would only hast a few seconds. Both combatants would attempt to draw and strike in one swing, and whoever accomplished this first was the winner, and the loser was dead, dying, or critically injured. As a result, katana's generally didn't break. They didn't see heavy enough use to. That pretty much makes the whole repair comment pointless.

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I would guess that they would focus on aircraft once the post war era wrapped up. Seeing the loss of their naval forces and the futility of ground battle after being driven back to their own shores, they would most likely rebuild from their strength.

Also, aircraft carriers, because that's what led us to kicking their asses at sea.

Right, but would they prefer medium carriers (Charles de Gaulle class type) or supercarriers (Nimitz class type)?

Fresnel knows more about it than you, I can assure you.

And your romantisized ideals don't work out. They DID block, parry, and dodge. It was not a fast draw. In fact, that's IF they didn't ambush them, get them with an arrow, or the various polearms they had.  

[Fresnel]

Aunt Nagase

Fresnel

Floyd

Aunt Nagase

Japan didn't win in this scenario. America beat Japan, but let them keep the ability to make war, and eventually gave them the responsibility of policing the Pacific.

Thing is, some Japanese copies are pretty good. Would such a trend continue? Would America help them out like they do today?

Given this specific information, the chances that Japan would rebuild and create an independent weapons development program are quite good.

Keep in mind that Japan was the first to master one of the most profound shifts in metallurgy. Specifically the ability to work iron and carbon into two different forms of steel which, in turn, could be melded into a surgically sharp blade we know as the tachi (or, more commonly called katana) sword.

So there is evidence that Japan can produce quite profound and powerful developments of its own.

Oh, they were FAR from the first. They stole the idea from the Chinese, and I doubt the Chinese developed it first either. The Japanese were the only culture psychotic enough to punish themselves by folding the metal 20 times, and even then they only did it out of necessity. Nobody else had to, but Japan has shitty ore deposits. Western cultures folded blades five or six times as a show of skill and blacksmith nut-flexing... but because of that, and the fact that a folded blade is irreparable once broken, most of those blades ended up on a wall.

You have no idea how the katana is used, do you? You don't bash the blades together in combat like in the West. A katana fight would only hast a few seconds. Both combatants would attempt to draw and strike in one swing, and whoever accomplished this first was the winner, and the loser was dead, dying, or critically injured. As a result, katana's generally didn't break. They didn't see heavy enough use to. That pretty much makes the whole repair comment pointless.

Until you hit a bone and chip it.

There was swordplay to katana fighting, they just preferred to dodge over blocking. What you just described is a Bleach swordfight. Kendo is closer to the truth.

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I would guess that they would focus on aircraft once the post war era wrapped up. Seeing the loss of their naval forces and the futility of ground battle after being driven back to their own shores, they would most likely rebuild from their strength.

Also, aircraft carriers, because that's what led us to kicking their asses at sea.

Right, but would they prefer medium carriers (Charles de Gaulle class type) or supercarriers (Nimitz class type)?

The Yamato class battleship had the largest guns to ever float. I'd bet supercarriers.

Note: The Missouri's were more powerful and, I think, had a larger bore/length 'caliber' ratio, but the Yamato's were physically larger.