The Definition of Pagan

[Lucas Moonrose]

Wohoo! This thread proved Useful Afterall! xDDD

 

[Starlock]

I have a number of issues with the "Paganism is not a religion" crowd that I think are sometimes overlooked.

1) Biggest issue I have with telling people "Paganism is not a religion" is that it sends the following message to people outside of our movement. Paganism isn't a religion, therefore people who are Pagan do not deserve free expression of their religion and the legal rights that "real" religions get.

2) What "religion" can mean is quite a bit wider than what most Americans seem to suppose. To flat out say "Paganism is not a religion" without clarifications is intellectually unsophisticated and simplistic. Especially when Paganism clearly has some of the qualities most people consider to be "religion" like belief in deities.

3) If you are going to argue Paganism is not a religion because it contains a number of different (sometimes contradictory) religious systems, then Christianity is also not a religion since it too contains a number of different (sometimes contradictory) religious systems. Same can probably be said for most broad religious categories, from Buddhism to Judaism. Instead of saying it isn't a religion since it's a broad category, say it's a religious category. It's a little less misleading.

Just a few things to think about. I really, really would advise against any of you in the community from saying things like "Paganism isn't a religion" primarily because of the first point. Or if you do say it, please explain moreso what you mean so it doesn't come across as "we don't deserve legal rights." xd  

[Lucas Moonrose]

Starlock

I have a number of issues with the "Paganism is not a religion" crowd that I think are sometimes overlooked.

1) Biggest issue I have with telling people "Paganism is not a religion" is that it sends the following message to people outside of our movement. Paganism isn't a religion, therefore people who are Pagan do not deserve free expression of their religion and the legal rights that "real" religions get.

2) What "religion" can mean is quite a bit wider than what most Americans seem to suppose. To flat out say "Paganism is not a religion" without clarifications is intellectually unsophisticated and simplistic. Especially when Paganism clearly has some of the qualities most people consider to be "religion" like belief in deities.

3) If you are going to argue Paganism is not a religion because it contains a number of different (sometimes contradictory) religious systems, then Christianity is also not a religion since it too contains a number of different (sometimes contradictory) religious systems. Same can probably be said for most broad religious categories, from Buddhism to Judaism. Instead of saying it isn't a religion since it's a broad category, say it's a religious category. It's a little less misleading.

Just a few things to think about. I really, really would advise against any of you in the community from saying things like "Paganism isn't a religion" primarily because of the first point. Or if you do say it, please explain moreso what you mean so it doesn't come across as "we don't deserve legal rights." xd

Thats the thing though, Paganism Isn't a Religion.... It's a term to discribe Religion.

 

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Starlock

1) Biggest issue I have with telling people "Paganism is not a religion" is that it sends the following message to people outside of our movement. Paganism isn't a religion, therefore people who are Pagan do not deserve free expression of their religion and the legal rights that "real" religions get.

So you follow it up with "it's an umbrella term that describes a number of religions". Personally I'd rather not lie to people about this; I'd rather they actually understood what Paganism is. Otherwise they're just going to put their foot in it later on or assume we're all the same.

You're also assuming Paganism is a unified movement. Personally I have no wish to be at all connected with several Pagan religions. I'd join movements against them.

Quote:

2) What "religion" can mean is quite a bit wider than what most Americans seem to suppose. To flat out say "Paganism is not a religion" without clarifications is intellectually unsophisticated and simplistic. Especially when Paganism clearly has some of the qualities most people consider to be "religion" like belief in deities.

Some Paganisms don't have belief in deities. It's an umbrella term. All it means is "non-Abrahamic".

Quote:

3) If you are going to argue Paganism is not a religion because it contains a number of different (sometimes contradictory) religious systems, then Christianity is also not a religion since it too contains a number of different (sometimes contradictory) religious systems.

It's not a religion because it doesn't meet the requirements for being a religion. There is no unified belief. There is no unified entity of worship. There is no unified practice. There is no one thing that is shared except the fact that YHWH is not the deity worshipped (or, if you prefer, that the religion did not descend in some form from the revelations of Abraham). It's simply not a religion. We can't pretend it is just for simplicity's sake.

Besides, I find it offensive.

Christianity contains a basic unified theology, at least if we don't count the Gnostics and heretics (sorry, Robbie). It shares holy texts. It shares belief in and worship of an entity, namely Jesus (AND that applies to ALL Christians, including the heretics and gnostics). I'm fairly sure all forms of Christianity contain the practice of Baptism, even if they don't all think it necessary or don't all do it the same way.

A correct comparison would be to say that Paganism isn't a religion in the same way that the Abrahamic umbrella isn't a religion.

Quote:

Same can probably be said for most broad religious categories, from Buddhism to Judaism. Instead of saying it isn't a religion since it's a broad category, say it's a religious category. It's a little less misleading.

So is saying "Paganism is a religion". In fact I've had many more insulting and offensive interactions form people assuming my faith is identical to theirs, or to their friend's, or worships Teh Great Gawdess because of people thinking it's a religion than I have ever had from people who assume it isn't.

Most people finish their sentence with "....it's a religious umbrella" anyway. It's moot point. It's very rarely an issue.

Quote:

Just a few things to think about. I really, really would advise against any of you in the community from saying things like "Paganism isn't a religion" primarily because of the first point. Or if you do say it, please explain moreso what you mean so it doesn't come across as "we don't deserve legal rights." xd

What does it matter? Forget for a minute that 99% of the time that sentence is properly followed-up anyway... Unless these people are judges or lawmakers it doesn't matter whether they think we have legal rights or not. If they give a rat's a** then they'll ask a follow-up question, and if they don't, what does it matter? If they actually attempt to discriminate based on the fact that they don't understand an individual's religion they'll soon find themselves on the wrong end of a lawsuit anyway.  

[Starlock]

Sanguina Cruenta

You're also assuming Paganism is a unified movement.

Actually, I'm not. I do not require religions to be "unified" to be defined as such. I think we're coming from fundamentally different perspectives on what religion constitutes, which is really what I wanted to bring out with the second point. I think some very sound arguments can be made that nearly all of the major religious denominations lack unified belief and don't even believe in the same deity! I notice Christians seem to believe in a radically different God. Some of them seem to believe in a vengeful one, others believe in a benevolent one! There is also a significant amount of infighting within Christianity; not exactly what I'd call a unified front. We still call Christianity a religion despite these characteristics, eh?

I also don't define Paganism as merely "non-abrahamic." I might use that definition occasionally for paganism, but not Paganism with proper case. There are too many ways to define both of these terms for me to want to oversimplify with the sorts of statements I see some making. If others are comfortable doing that, more power to them. I find it ironic that you find my view an oversimplification, it seems, and I find yours an oversimplification. xd

Sanguina Cruenta

What does it matter? Forget for a minute that 99% of the time that sentence is properly followed-up anyway... Unless these people are judges or lawmakers it doesn't matter whether they think we have legal rights or not. If they give a rat's a** then they'll ask a follow-up question, and if they don't, what does it matter? If they actually attempt to discriminate based on the fact that they don't understand an individual's religion they'll soon find themselves on the wrong end of a lawsuit anyway.

Fair enough. Again, I note some irony: just as you seem to find it offensive to say Paganism IS a religion, some of us find it offensive to say it ISN'T a religion. I fall into the second group, obviously. wink I don't use a label for myself beyond Neopagan, and clearly what I do is a religion. To say what I do isn't a religion, is... well... bugger of!
whee