Patron...?

[Silfy_Steller]

So I'm curious, after loosing interest in pagan beliefs, and every religion in general, I've felt a new spark of fascination, as though the whole "neo-pagan, wicca" thin called back to me.

Recently I've been thinking a bit about patrons and patroness' and one god arroused my curiousity, not sayig they called to me but... could Hades, of the greek pantheon, be a patron? I mean from what I've always thought he seemed to be dark and [evil?] But after realizing that that's probably a misconception, I was curious.

Do any of you know anyone whose patron is hades? Is it even possible to be chosen by him?  

[ncsweet]

I would assume (except for those that belong to closed culture, and even then it's somewhat debatable) that any God could choose anyone they wanted.

Don't know all that much about the Greek Gods myself, but here is a link to some reliable info on Hades. (the site is good for info on all the Greek Gods as well)  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

I actually really like Hades. He and Persephone seem to make a good pair, if you look at it in a certain way.

Anyway yeah, Theoi, it's good times.

I'm sure he is a patron to some, yes. If you're interseted in Greek religion generally I found this website really helpful.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

I feel that the concept of a patron is a bit confusing. Aidoneus is a patron. He is a patron of many things, and much of that is part of our daily lives. Did that make sense?  

[HorsesOfTheNight]

Brass Bell Doll

I feel that the concept of a patron is a bit confusing. Aidoneus is a patron. He is a patron of many things, and much of that is part of our daily lives. Did that make sense?

Not really  

[oOGarrettOo]

I think Hades could be a patron. After all, why not?

I've somehow managed to get myself all wrapped up with a patroness 3nodding The more I research her, the more I understand why she might have chosen me. We have a lot in common and I'm willing to delve deeper into her mythos to really get to know her (for a westerner anyway. Don't see much of that anymore when it comes to eastern deity).  

[Brass Bell Doll]

HorsesOfTheNight

Brass Bell Doll

I feel that the concept of a patron is a bit confusing. Aidoneus is a patron. He is a patron of many things, and much of that is part of our daily lives. Did that make sense?

Not really

When most of my friends speak of a patron god, they are usually speaking of a god they like who they work with. I feel for the most part this wouldn't be how the ancient Greeks would have seen their gods. Instead, a god such as Aidoneus was a patron of certain things or professions. Someone would have had a relationship with many gods because they would have been important in many intersecting parts of their lives and in different times of their lives.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Brass Bell Doll

HorsesOfTheNight

Brass Bell Doll

I feel that the concept of a patron is a bit confusing. Aidoneus is a patron. He is a patron of many things, and much of that is part of our daily lives. Did that make sense?

Not really

When most of my friends speak of a patron god, they are usually speaking of a god they like who they work with. I feel for the most part this wouldn't be how the ancient Greeks would have seen their gods. Instead, a god such as Aidoneus was a patron of certain things or professions. Someone would have had a relationship with many gods because they would have been important in many intersecting parts of their lives and in different times of their lives.

interestingly enough, the concept of patronage itself comes from Greek society. And the Greeks had heroes and characters in literature with those close bonds with gods - see Odysseus and Bright Eyed Athena. Ordinary Greeks may not have in general but some probably did and then there's priests and priestesses of specific deities. Apollo's Oracle?

Besides, having aclose relationship with one deity doesn't mean you don't have relationships with other deities.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Sanguina Cruenta

interestingly enough, the concept of patronage itself comes from Greek society. And the Greeks had heroes and characters in literature with those close bonds with gods - see Odysseus and Bright Eyed Athena.

I find it fascinating myself. I feel it is worth noting though that the heroes in such positions were often selected for complex social reasons. In the example of Odysseus and Athene we have a goddess who was spited by Paris, who patrons war and who saw her shrine defiled. It made sense that a warrior who would strike at her enemies would find favor with her.

Sanguina Cruenta

Ordinary Greeks may not have in general but some probably did and then there's priests and priestesses of specific deities. Apollo's Oracle?

I feel this is in support of my point.
Ordinary Greeks likely did have patrons. A stone worker by trade would have recognized Hephaistos as his professional patron. In seeking a suitable marriage contract, he would have viewed Hera as his patron in that endeavor. In that same way, priests and priestesses by virtue of being in those roles had certain gods as patrons.

I feel that Aidoneus as an example may be a momentary patron to someone who has lost a loved one. A professional patron to someone who ensures proper burial by trade. Miners may also have him as a professional patron, and when adorned in jewels or gold mined from the earth, it would be reasonable to honor him for passing these gifts from his realm.

Sanguina Cruenta

Besides, having aclose relationship with one deity doesn't mean you don't have relationships with other deities.

I do not feel I implied otherwise. I was attempting to illustrate that one of the popular understandings of patronage isn't the only understanding.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

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I find it fascinating myself. I feel it is worth noting though that the heroes in such positions were often selected for complex social reasons. In the example of Odysseus and Athene we have a goddess who was spited by Paris, who patrons war and who saw her shrine defiled. It made sense that a warrior who would strike at her enemies would find favor with her.

She liked him because he was clever. She liked him before he went to war - a war he tried to get out of going to, mind. It's not like he wanted to strike at her enemies.

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I feel this is in support of my point.

It's not at all in support of your point. You said the Greeks wouldn't have thought of them in that way... are you saying that your friends don't know what patrons are? Why bring them up, then - unless you're just saying your friends are all twits?

Quote:

Ordinary Greeks likely did have patrons. A stone worker by trade would have recognized Hephaistos as his professional patron. In seeking a suitable marriage contract, he would have viewed Hera as his patron in that endeavor.

I'm not sure you understand the concept of a patron deity. You don't switch them around depending on what you want at any particular time. A patron is a deity with whom you have a very strong bond, whom you serve before others. Again, please see the Greek Patron-Client relationship concept and you'll better understand the idea.

A stone-worker may well have had Hephaestos as a patron but Hephaestos would not suddenly stop being his patron if he was seeking marriage advice from Hera, nor would Hera become his patron in the interum.

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I feel that Aidoneus as an example may be a momentary patron to someone who has lost a loved one.

Patrons are not "momentary". They may pass out of our lives in the sense that they pass us on to another deity, to serve them primarly as our patrons, but these aren't "momentary", they're temporary. This is a relationship that takes years to build. It can't be momentary.

I think you're confusing a deity's patronage of, say, a city or a type of person with individual patronage. Athena who watches over Athens has that role of patron of Athens, with all the duties implied thereof, but that doesn't make her a patron deity of every single Athenian on a personal level. Hephaestos watches over smiths and smithys, but given the nature of that work it's likely each smith would also develop a personal relationship with him, heightened by his patronage of the work itself. Do you understand?

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I do not feel think I implied otherwise. I was attempting to illustrate that one of the popular understandings of patronage isn't the only understanding.

I'm unsure what your understanding is; possibly you've completely misunderstood the popular understanding itself. Then again, the popular understanding seems to be "god I like at this particular time", leading to the unfortunate tendency of people to feminise the term to "matron". Bollocks of course, and not the definition used on this thread or much elsewhere in this guild.

You said:

Quote:

Someone would have had a relationship with many gods because they would have been important in many intersecting parts of their lives and in different times of their lives.

That implies heavily to me that a person with a patron would not have other gods who were important in their lives. This is not at all so. You're either confusing ALL relationships with deities to be those of patronage, or you're saying a person serving a patron wouldn't have other close deities in their lives.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Sanguina Cruenta

She liked him because he was clever.

Another field I feel she is often rightly considered a patroness of.

Sanguina Cruenta

It's not at all in support of your point. You said the Greeks wouldn't have thought of them in that way... are you saying that your friends don't know what patrons are? Why bring them up, then - unless you're just saying your friends are all twits?

I feel it would be fair to ask that you be respectful and neither call names nor place words in my mouth. I do feel that a great deal of my friends have a very modern understanding of what a patron is. But that does not make them twits.

I feel it may also be worth nothing that the term patron stemmed from Middle Latin, not ancient Greek. When we speak of tutelary gods and spirits, the historical relationships had far more to do with the influence such a god exerted on a person's time, and there would be cases where the patron of a person's professional life would not be as present in the home as other patrons.

Sanguina Cruenta

I'm not sure you understand the concept of a patron deity. You don't switch them around depending on what you want at any particular time. A patron is a deity with whom you have a very strong bond, whom you serve before others. Again, please see the Greek Patron-Client relationship concept and you'll better understand the idea.

I am well aware of the Greek idea of a patron.

Sanguina Cruenta

A stone-worker may well have had Hephaestos as a patron but Hephaestos would not suddenly stop being his patron if he was seeking marriage advice from Hera, nor would Hera become his patron in the interum.

I feel there is a misunderstanding. I am not suggesting the relationship would end because of a shift in daily activities, but Hera would have been the patron of the Marriage contract and I feel there is just cause to acknowledge her as such.

There are several different ways in which polytheism has been applied by different cultures throughout history. I feel it is safe to say that the majority of Ancient Greek culture was a form of polytheism that honored tutelary gods in a way that would depend on the time and place the worshiper was in.

I feel that the role of tutelary gods of specific cities highlights this well.

Sanguina Cruenta

Patrons are not "momentary". They may pass out of our lives in the sense that they pass us on to another deity, to serve them primarly as our patrons, but these aren't "momentary", they're temporary. This is a relationship that takes years to build. It can't be momentary.

Would you be willing to explain why you feel this way? I feel that some of the information isn't completely accurate, as the term stems largely from Roman culture and Latin language, not Greek.

Sanguina Cruenta

I think you're confusing a deity's patronage of, say, a city or a type of person with individual patronage. Athena who watches over Athens has that role of patron of Athens, with all the duties implied thereof, but that doesn't make her a patron deity of every single Athenian on a personal level. Hephaestos watches over smiths and smithys, but given the nature of that work it's likely each smith would also develop a personal relationship with him, heightened by his patronage of the work itself. Do you understand?

I feel I understand, but I do not see how you are drawing your conclusion since the festivals and experiences of the Athenians would have reflected Athene as a patron within their lives as citizens as well as other gods who would have been patrons in other areas of their lives.

Sanguina Cruenta

I'm unsure what your understanding is; possibly you've completely misunderstood the popular understanding itself. Then again, the popular understanding seems to be "god I like at this particular time", leading to the unfortunate tendency of people to feminise the term to "matron". Bollocks of course, and not the definition used on this thread or much elsewhere in this guild.

Please do me the courtesy of not changing my words. I find it very disrespectful. If you would like to explore my word selection, I would be happy to do so in private messages.

I feel that there is a misunderstanding, but it seems to stem from beliefs as to how people approach the term patron. Would you be willing to provide the origin of your understandings?

Sanguina Cruenta

You said:

Quote:

Someone would have had a relationship with many gods because they would have been important in many intersecting parts of their lives and in different times of their lives.

That implies heavily to me that a person with a patron would not have other gods who were important in their lives. This is not at all so. You're either confusing ALL relationships with deities to be those of patronage, or you're saying a person serving a patron wouldn't have other close deities in their lives.

I feel there is no confusion on my part, as I would suggest that all important relationships with gods would have been viewed through the filter of patronage.

If we were to speak to an polytheistic Athenian citizen who was a smith by trade and ask him who his patron was, I feel he would likely be confused by the question if it was worded to reflect a single patron. His pride in the city-state he was a part of, his honoring of the patron of his profession and other life circumstances would hold that many gods are patrons.

I feel that there isn't a reason to hold that a person would not recognize the role of a patron that the gods held in the many parts of their lives and that the notion of having a single patron god is relatively modern, though I am willing to reconsider my position if you could produce ancient Greek documentation to the contrary.