Therianthropy

[Zuri-kai]

I've never supported science. Those a** holes like to think that their conclusions are always right, and if they're not than it must not exist. It's simply ridiculous and rather arrogant for people to think they can explain everything.

I firmly believe that there is a soul, and while I don't believe in reincarnation I accept that people are born the way they are for some larger purpose. The world and web of human interactions are simply too vast for the simple minds of humans to comprehend so they choose to ignore it and happily go about with their science.

I quote Emerson M. Pugh:
"If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we couldn't."  

[Pent and Ten]

and if science agreed with you, Zuri, you'd probably be defending science adamently, while almost everyone else would be agreeing with you  

[Xx_Hanyuu-San_xX]

Zuri-kai

XxTwisted_Desire_PantsuxX

Jiti

Zuri-kai

[♫=♥]



Please don't feel that way. cry
People have mixed views probably because they ran into ones that twisted what therianthropy is.

Fact is 99.9% of people don't do proper research when they run into a new thing that to them is Foreign thus they deem it a "Mental illness" (Homosexuality for example), or Evil, (Paganism), and again Mental illness (Therianism), and so forth.

People are far too sucked into a bigoted hateful view of the world these days (STILL) and thus anything that scares them is to be shunned, so they trick others into doing the same.

*applauds* Well said. :3

Why thank you. *takes a bow*  

[Garek Maxwell]

Artemis Vulpes

I would only call a religious people crazy if they actually believed they they could converse with God, or the gods, and claim they have seen things such as angles and demons. There are reasons why the diagnosis of schizophrenia exists.

Agreed to an extent.
We should really be specific here so we agree that telling God things is very different from having God speak back to you. That I'm fine with. A line of sanity.

For angels and demons, that depends. Are they claiming a near death experience happened to them? Well then, we can't say anything about that. Most we can say is electricity was firing off in their brain a bunch. Now, if they claim the physical world was being altered (as in light bent and suddenly a halo appeared over someone), then they're going to need to prove it or get help.

Once again, a big distinction between the supernatural (forever beyond our grasp) and the natural (what we can analyze, test, etc.). Claim anything about the supernatural, anything, and you've just proved and disproved yourself simultaneously in a Schrodinger's cat manner.

Artemis Vulpes

I have offered therians many times an opportunity to off up some kind of evidence, or proof, that there is any validity to their belief. Not a single one has been able to offer up something tangible, I am sorry but feeling it is true is just not good enough. Seriously, if you are going to make a claim you had better have someone to back it up, simple as that.

I am actually perfectly fine with people believing whatever it is they want to believe, but I do feel that such matter are better left a private affair. The moment you start to share in a public forum, you open yourself up to questions and skeptism. If you are not prepared for such events, then it is better you do not bring up the subject. Again, people are allowed to believe, but in turn other are allowed to react negatively. It is a two way street.

No, discussing one's beliefs or lack there of does not give the other party permission to berate, belittle, or otherwise be an a** about it.

If you want to live in a world where a personal opinion, whether wrong or right, results in dickery regardless, then I guess we'll just keep on doing what we're doing. I personally don't like hate that's spewed daily when it comes to politics, but I'll just leave that as beginning of Column A.

Want to debate in a respectful and friendly manner? Go right ahead! But if you're going to demean others so you can feel superior to them, then no, sorry, I refuse that and so should everyone else. The screaming matches seen in politics all the time is really what you're okaying. Do you honestly want more of that?

Now, that said, of course if they're hearing voices then they need medical help! That's a no-brainer and I agree wholeheartedly with you. Being disrespectful to them though doesn't encourage that change, but I'm kinda naive in thinking that's a no-brainer too. If they're a d**k back, then just ignore them and leave them be. Simple as that. Couldn't be any easier.

Edit: Though I just thought of something. If voices in your head mean you're crazy, then what the heck is sanity when you have this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looking_glass_self

Or more demonstrative...


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Zuri-kai

I've never supported science. Those a** holes like to think that their conclusions are always right, and if they're not than it must not exist. It's simply ridiculous and rather arrogant for people to think they can explain everything.

If you don't support science, then why are you utilizing everything science built? It's not just small scale science of tool making, nor is it "extreme" examples of computers. It's also how we communicate (lower-case letters were invented for easier reading), how we shelter ourselves (structure and architectural science), how we create things for more than a select few (the industrial revolution really).

I don't think it's arrogant to claim science can explain everything, but I do think it's too soon to say such a thing. Given that science depends on our ability to reproduce something that has a study-able effect, then so long as something is reproducible it can be studied. That's a lot.

Zuri-kai

The world and web of human interactions are simply too vast for the simple minds of humans to comprehend so they choose to ignore it and happily go about with their science.

Actually, they're studying these things now all over the world. And yes, a human mind can't comprehende all that information. That's why we have computers. They crunch the data, we get the simple results.

What's more interesting is that lately there are experiments in finding patterns between unrelated disciplines. We are beginning to see patterns emerge where we didn't think there were any. We're also seeing very very large systems beginning to be analyzed thoroughly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/magazine/19Urban_West-t.html
Here's one example, where patterns emerged finding very surprising results on the city. Things like every time the population doubles, crime rises a certain predictable percentage, but so too does the wealth. Also, I believe it finds that they're simply more efficient with human resources than any other kind of living...but it does come at a price of close quarters, pollution issues, and other problems.

Zuri-kai

I quote Emerson M. Pugh:
"If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we couldn't."

Except we invented machines that would allow us to anyway...  

[Xx_Hanyuu-San_xX]

@Jungle: well the problem there is the fact that they deem things like therianism a mental illness yet why not the people such a Christians who claim to see Demons and Angels?

Also

@Artemis: I think you got something wrong there.......o.O you don't have a mental illness if you have a vision, it's got to have something stronger than that to it, like a great big hold, you don't just feel you have a spiritual animal or are a spiritual animal you THINK your that animal and that you can TRANSFORM into that animal physically.


Edited: woops.....I was just repeating my self there. :/  

[Xx_Hanyuu-San_xX]

Deaths kitsune

XxTwisted_Desire_PantsuxX

Jiti

Zuri-kai

[♫=♥]



Please don't feel that way. cry
People have mixed views probably because they ran into ones that twisted what therianthropy is.

Fact is 99.9% of people don't do proper research when they run into a new thing that to them is Foreign thus they deem it a "Mental illness" (Homosexuality for example), or Evil, (Paganism), and again Mental illness (Therianism), and so forth.

People are far too sucked into a bigoted hateful view of the world these days (STILL) and thus anything that scares them is to be shunned, so they trick others into doing the same.

i agree with zuri. you pretty much hit the nail on the head with that statement.
and that is also the reason i did not want to form an opinion on this. its like i said in my last post. im not educated in this subject. i wish people would think sometime before talking about stuff they dont know.
as for your last bit, i think i can sum that up for you

mob mentality+fear and throw a little ignorance in there as well

Yep, lol  

[Xx_Hanyuu-San_xX]

Zuri-kai

I've never supported science. Those a** holes like to think that their conclusions are always right, and if they're not than it must not exist. It's simply ridiculous and rather arrogant for people to think they can explain everything.

I firmly believe that there is a soul, and while I don't believe in reincarnation I accept that people are born the way they are for some larger purpose. The world and web of human interactions are simply too vast for the simple minds of humans to comprehend so they choose to ignore it and happily go about with their science.

I quote Emerson M. Pugh:
"If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we couldn't."

Sorry but 99.9% of science is correct, however currently scientist aren't very intelligent beyond fixing things like Disease, for example, and tend to dwell too much on making anything spiritual a Mental illness, because they themselves cannot understand it and thus they think their point of view is the one and only Truth.....ROFL

In fact, original Scientist (Before the biblical bullshit began) were much much smarter.....it's a shame they were killed off by the church and deemed as evil savage people that SACRIFICED children and s**t. =/  

[Pent and Ten]

XxTwisted_Desire_PantsuxX

In fact, original Scientist (Before the biblical bullshit began) were much much smarter.....

This is an opinion, not a fact
(you have to be able to prove something for it to be a fact)

It's just that most scientists tend to specialize more in technology now

Albert Einstine, Bill Gates, Benjamin Franklin, James Watt, etc  

[Zuri-kai]

XxTwisted_Desire_PantsuxX

Zuri-kai

I've never supported science. Those a** holes like to think that their conclusions are always right, and if they're not than it must not exist. It's simply ridiculous and rather arrogant for people to think they can explain everything.

I firmly believe that there is a soul, and while I don't believe in reincarnation I accept that people are born the way they are for some larger purpose. The world and web of human interactions are simply too vast for the simple minds of humans to comprehend so they choose to ignore it and happily go about with their science.

I quote Emerson M. Pugh:
"If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we couldn't."

Sorry but 99.9% of science is correct, however currently scientist aren't very intelligent beyond fixing things like Disease, for example, and tend to dwell too much on making anything spiritual a Mental illness, because they themselves cannot understand it and thus they think their point of view is the one and only Truth.....ROFL

In fact, original Scientist (Before the biblical bullshit began) were much much smarter.....it's a shame they were killed off by the church and deemed as evil savage people that SACRIFICED children and s**t. =/

No one can say that for certain. There have been multiple instances through out history where scientists are "right" and then proven horrible and embarrassingly wrong on a subject, and I find your Biblical "bullshit" line completely offensive. Judaism is one of the oldest recorded religions and no one can prove that science came before religion so don't speak as if you are so certain.'

You people seem to be forgetting that computers aren't perfect. They're still programed and coded by man, they have no greater intelligence than we do, they are merely able to process the data fed to them faster.

Garek Maxwell

If you don't support science, then why are you utilizing everything science built? It's not just small scale science of tool making, nor is it "extreme" examples of computers. It's also how we communicate (lower-case letters were invented for easier reading), how we shelter ourselves (structure and architectural science), how we create things for more than a select few (the industrial revolution really).

I don't think it's arrogant to claim science can explain everything, but I do think it's too soon to say such a thing. Given that science depends on our ability to reproduce something that has a study-able effect, then so long as something is reproducible it can be studied. That's a lot.

If you word it that way then everything is a science, even art would be a science and I know that's not right. Just because some thing has been invented doesn't make it a product of science. It may have used ideas and discoveries made my science but it doesn't make it science.

And it is arrogant to claim that one can explain everything. Science will never be able to prove the existence of a soul but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  

[Garek Maxwell]

Zuri-kai

No one can say that for certain. There have been multiple instances through out history where scientists are "right" and then proven horrible and embarrassingly wrong on a subject,
[...]
no one can prove that science came before religion so don't speak as if you are so certain.'

This depends upon what is considered as science.
Repeating experiments and coming to a conclusion is the most integral part of science. Early humans would have done this to create better tools, or even tools in general.

I don't know if there is evidence that tools came before religion, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was true. If so, then science came before religion.

However, if you prefer the whole establishment of the scientific method, by which brought order to discovery and invention along with safety and security of information, then that's a different matter. Of course, without that, then snake oil could still be sold as a medical remedy...Heck, so could cocaine.

I cannot stress how deeply ingrained science is to everyday life, that to be against something so intrinsic is rather absurd...

Zuri-kai

You people seem to be forgetting that computers aren't perfect. They're still programed and coded by man, they have no greater intelligence than we do, they are merely able to process the data fed to them faster.

We're approaching the point where this statement simply wouldn't apply anymore. Right now, this very minute, scientists are developing code that evolves on it's own. That means little human input and the possibility to replace human code when deemed unnecessary or just not suited for adaptations it needs.

Not only that, but scientists are working on developing a computer with similar architecture to the human brain in hopes of booting it up and seeing if it can begin to think for itself. This one's less certain to work I think, but evolutionary machinery could take a process that takes millions of years and shrink it down to mere seconds. Now that's change.

Zuri-kai

If you word it that way then everything is a science, even art would be a science and I know that's not right.

Art can be a science, and in many instances it is a science of its own.

I'm probably speaking too broadly, but I'm pretty sure everything got explored scientifically in art. And I mean it both in the early beginnings of different mediums but also today. We wouldn't know so much about artists if we did not apply science to history. Cross referencing, etc, until we find out things like the Renaissance being partly a direct result of the fall of the Roman Empire...also known as Byzantium.

And besides, robots can make art.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfTbBHM55Vo
Okay, so it can't think or appreciate it...yet.
We'll get there.

Zuri-kai

Just because some thing has been invented doesn't make it a product of science. It may have used ideas and discoveries made my science but it doesn't make it science.

Inventions require the application of the scientific method. The car didn't just magically appear afert fooling around in a work shop. Multiple amateur scientists worked out the problem over time. First the steam engine, petroleum burning engine, smaller, compacter, less explodey, better frame, easy controls, until finally a car came about. All of which required the application of science to create said things. And guess what? It's not just complex things like cars. Hammers, roads, paper, virtually everything you touch had science applied in it's creation.

The most prominent of all when it comes to art? Design.
Everything you see, everything you touch, all of it designed. It's no accident when looking at an article with a red background that the next full page ad is all blue. Science! Well, Modernist studies eventually used in advertising, but still!
That mouse you use? Ergonomics!
Chair? Ergonomics and small scale engineering. Maybe even aesthetics based on sociological studies on what people like you want.
Pretty much everything is touched by science. The real question is to ask what hasn't been touched by science, and the answer is not a whole lot.

Zuri-kai

And it is arrogant to claim that one can explain everything. Science will never be able to prove the existence of a soul but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Religion isn't in the realm of science because science is about the natural world. So yeah, that's agreeable, for now. Just don't rule out the possibility. One day a machine could prove everyone wrong, even atheists. You never know. There's infinite possibilities.  

[Zuri-kai]

*chuckles* I'm sorry but it's not hard to prove science and atheists wrong (at least in the argument in lack of a deity). Just keep asking "And where did that come from?"
Oh yes, scientists sound so smart. "In the beginning there was nothing. Then it exploded." XD

And there are artists out there who produce art simply for what it is and shun science's probey-gropey fingers from their work. I am one such artist who things that science should get it's fat ugly nose out of the art world. Design was design before man decided to pick it apart and call it a science. The same can be said for almost any of the fine arts (yes even music).

Anyway leading back into therianthropy. I believe that science is still incapable of clearly understanding the workings of the human mind and to have therianthropy classified as a "mental disorder" is very insulting.  

[[-Erik-]]

Did you guys take the "scientifically proven" thing serious?

Ha hah.  

[Artemis Vulpes]

Zuri-kai

*chuckles* I'm sorry but it's not hard to prove science and atheists wrong (at least in the argument in lack of a deity). Just keep asking "And where did that come from?"
Oh yes, scientists sound so smart. "In the beginning there was nothing. Then it exploded." XD

And there are artists out there who produce art simply for what it is and shun science's probey-gropey fingers from their work. I am one such artist who things that science should get it's fat ugly nose out of the art world. Design was design before man decided to pick it apart and call it a science. The same can be said for almost any of the fine arts (yes even music).

Anyway leading back into therianthropy. I believe that science is still incapable of clearly understanding the workings of the human mind and to have therianthropy classified as a "mental disorder" is very insulting.

You have proven yourself not only to be an ignoramus, but an idiot. As well a horrible hypocrite. Honestly, I do not know if this your actual behavior and way of thinking, or that you are simply a troll.

In any case, this thread has become pointless, I am having a mod lock it.  

[J.Kougar]

Wow, I can see why Mortella wanted me to come back and check over the state of the guild, it's awful. How is it we expect to attract new members, when we chase them off with hostility when they dare to post?

Artemis Vulpes... I am in disbelief at your actions in this thread. I know the whole "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" doesn't apply as ideally online as it should, but posting hateful comments just to try and provoke someone is just trolling. If you really felt the need to post a negative view on the topic you could have done so in a tactful and 'my opinion is' manner.

Then, to compound the issues you continued to troll the thread and eventually ended up making personal attacks against the original poster and then abused your moderator powers by closing the thread down.

I would be disappointed in any user acting this way towards new members in an attempt to drive them away, but from a moderator such as yourself (your Selene Aries account) who should want the guild to grow and expand, who should be held to a higher standard to set an example for others... I'm just shocked that the guild has come to this.

In light of all the feedback I've received to my guild announcement yesterday, I've had to start going through the current threads one at a time and I'm not happy with what I'm seeing so far. Admittedly this thread was pointed out to me specifically by a couple users, but I will get to the rest of them as time permits.

I'm sorry, but in light of your actions in this thread I'm afraid I'm going to have to revoke your moderator power until further review.

It's bad enough when a user trolls a thread and makes personal attacks, but for someone who is supposed to be a moderator to do so... that's another matter all together (and doing such things on your alt account instead of your mod account doesn't make it okay either). sad