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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:17 pm
He's right when he says the atonement work is 100% God's doing (and giving faith is 100% God's doing). I wish he would've expressed himself differently though because if people applied the same line of reasoning elsewhere, where man's free will in relation to salvation is concerned, that causes problems—even though I know what he meant.
And in case anyone was thinking it, just looking at the Book of Hebrews which he was quoting from:
Quote:
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV)
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 6:6 Or age, 6 if they fall
That has man's free will written all over it. Paul isn't suggesting, "God was powerless to save this person". A person who falls away from the faith—after having come to a knowledge of scripture (because of God), received enlightenment of it (because of God), put it to the test and saw results / tasted the goodness (because of God) and shared in the Holy Spirit (and thus was a saved person by definition because no person shares in the Holy Spirit, which is a gift from God, without repenting and believing first)—is no longer saveable/loses salvation. A rejection of the faith, after going through all that, renders him/her impossible to be saved now. But it doesn't mean God was powerless to save. The bible allows man to have a say in his salvation. Man has a say, he's just not in a position of power to enact it, but he can very well reject it once it's been given.
If Hebrews 6 is true, and it is, that doesn't mean we're all of a sudden not completely dependent on God for salvation, despite having the free will choice to reject or accept the gift. Atonement sacrifice? He provided it. Do we accept it or trample it underfoot (Hebrews 10:29)? Holy spirit? He provided it. Do we quench it (1 Thessalonians 5:19) or fan it into flame (2 Timothy 1:6)? Faith? He provided it. Do you persevere in it (Hebrews 4:14) or lose it (Luke 8:13)? Even though God gives the atonement, Holy Spirit and faith to believe in the first place, the person is rejecting it in Hebrews 6.
And maybe James White is in agreement, but the way he phrased it could make someone think otherwise (that man has absolutely no say in whether he remains saved or not / stays condemned or not).
real eyes realize
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:58 am
real eyes realize
What I'm most confused with is if we should repent daily. Like say for example I swore in my mind and then asked for forgiveness for it. Then, in the same day, swore again [not meaning to] in my mind, should I continue to ask for forgiveness? I try to repent but I've found it a bit challenging to keep my mind from swearing randomly. Like I'll be in a state of complete calm and then all of a sudden, a bad word pops up in my mind, granted..I don't dwell on it long enough- it just pops up and I quickly try to reject the thought and focus my thoughts on something else.
Also, if we are to repent daily and ask for forgiveness ..then if I were to witness to someone, how would I go about presenting the gospel and letting them know that it's not an eternal security if you ask Jesus into your life to be your Lord and Savior- that it is possible to fall away from the faith/reject the faith, that they have to repent daily and continually keep the faith?
Not sure if you're familiar with Ray Comfort and his techniques in how to witness to others but I'll give you a video example. The guy witnessing in this video example is Kirk Cameron. YouTube
I don't want to give a false gospel to a someone saying that they have eternal security once they accept Jesus into their lives. I want to know all the facts in the Bible about the Gospel and the words to say to them so that they can understand what it means to be saved. I think that..from my understanding, that there's 2 instances where one is saved. The first is when they accept Jesus Christ into their lives as Lord and Savior and the second is eternal salvation. But I'm just not sure what one must do in order to have eternal salvation. I'm finding it confusing because there's the issue of grace and then another one of believing in Jesus alone as one who can save us when we are face to face with God on judgement day?
Quote:
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:30 NIV
What does it mean to believe in Him? It seems there are two things here: everyone *who looks to the Son* and *believes in Him* shall have eternal life *and* He will raise them up on the last day. Does eternal life equal salvation/entering the Kingdom of Heaven on judgement day? :3
Sorry for all the questions sweatdrop I feel like I knew what it meant to be saved but then something comes up and I begin to get confused > < and I also want to witness but I am hesitant because I don't know what to tell them due to this confusion.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 4:25 pm
I'll address your question in three parts: repentance, atonement, and evangelism.
About repentance:
Spirit Reborn
What I'm most confused with is if we should repent daily. Like say for example I swore in my mind and then asked for forgiveness for it. Then, in the same day, swore again [not meaning to] in my mind, should I continue to ask for forgiveness? I try to repent but I've found it a bit challenging to keep my mind from swearing randomly. Like I'll be in a state of complete calm and then all of a sudden, a bad word pops up in my mind, granted..I don't dwell on it long enough- it just pops up and I quickly try to reject the thought and focus my thoughts on something else.
You are repentant if you admit/confess sin—INSTEAD OF hiding sin / "justifying" that the sin was alright to do / is alright to keep doing. To admit that it was sin and confess it to God and/or confess it to each other means you are turning away / have turned away from it. You do receive forgiveness for confessing sin / acknowledging sin / not wanting to keep committing the sin.
1 John 1:9 (NIV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
And eventually you will leave that sin behind given enough time and persistently walking in the Spirit (some sins fall away immediately others don't). It is possible to leave sin behind though; Jesus did tell us to leave our life of sin:
Quote:
John 8:11 (NIV)
“No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
That's what repentance is: you leave sin, turn your face away from it, though the flesh tries to entice you back, even if you stumble, you keep rejecting.
Paul's problem was exactly yours (and ours too, though we may be weak in different areas):
Quote:
Romans 7:14-25 (NIV)
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Footnotes:
a. Romans 7:18 Or my flesh b. Romans 7:25 Or in the flesh
That's why he makes it a point to say that he's a slave to God's law in his mind, despite his flesh wanting to do something else; even the times where he acts in the flesh contrary to what he wants in his mind. The fact that you don't want to entertain the thought is a good indicator that you are repentant: you hate sin, but love God's law (as you should because the law is to be written on our heart; that's what the new covenant is about: Jeremiah 31:31-33; Hebrews 8:10).
Similarly, John, who said we shouldn't/can't sin anymore, also says we have an advocate with the Father if we sin:
Quote:
1 John 2:1-2 (NIV)
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Quote:
1 John 3:9 (NIV)
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
Reading through John's first epistle solidified for me that it's an attitude problem (what your inner man wants to do): you don't want to sin, despite transgressing / giving into the flesh without wanting to (or thoughts coming to you that you didn't invite). But our goal as a born-again believer is to avoid sinning, and even if we fail, we recognize it for the sin that it is and Jesus intercedes for us.
Under the new covenant, we have the Holy Spirit, the undeserved gift God gave us / an act of grace God showed us, that helps us walk in his righteousness (Ezekiel 36:25-27), so we walk in His Spirit not the flesh. All the more evidence that we can leave sin / transgression of the law behind (thanks to God for providing this for us).
Quote:
Galatians 5:16-25 (NIV)
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[a] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Footnotes:
a. Galatians 5:17 Or you do not do what
Being repentant is the desire to leave sin behind, not persist in it.
---
About atonement:
The fact that we're granted atonement for our sins, simply by confessing our sins, without having to bring a sacrifice, means Jesus' atonement sacrifice is at work. According to scripture, both have always been needed (so do not let the Jews who are blinded still or the Muslims tell you otherwise, that it's just repentance).
YHWH has always called for both:
(1) a confession for how we specifically transgressed God's law.
(2) an atonement sacrifice / the shedding of blood to forgive that transgression.
Even in the Old Testament, that's how it was; it wasn't simply, "oh, the animal atoned for me, 'k thanks, bye":
Quote:
Leviticus 5:5 (NIV)
when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned.
At the same time, God would reproach the Israelites whenever they withheld the sacrifices from him (I'll include verses 3-4 for context, that God does delight in sacrifices, but the reproach is in verse 8):
Quote:
Malachi 3:3-4, 8 (NIV)
3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord, as in days gone by, as in former years.
[...]
8 "Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How are we robbing you?'
"In tithes and offerings.
When one was missing, he wasn't interested in the other. For instance, without their confession and turning away from sins, he wasn't interested in sacrifices:
Quote:
Isaiah 1:10-17 (NIV)
10 Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the instruction of our God, you people of Gomorrah! 11 “The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?” says the Lord. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. 12 When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? 13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations— I cannot bear your worthless assemblies. 14 Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. 15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood! 16 Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong. 17 Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed.[a] Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.
Footnotes:
a. Isaiah 1:17 Or justice. / Correct the oppressor
And according to Paul, there were sins committed in the past that had gone unpunished which necessitated Jesus' shed blood/atonement (what specifically those sins are, I'm not sure: was it the sins that Israel simply repented of but never brought a sacrifice for? was it to atone for the murders which shed innocent blood? was it sins they never repented of despite bringing sacrifices? or was it that all those animal sacrifices never really counted? Not entirely sure...).
Quote:
Romans 3:25 (NIV)
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
Footnotes:
Romans 3:25 The Greek for sacrifice of atonement refers to the atonement cover on the ark of the covenant (see Lev. 16:15,16).
Jesus' blood is superior, that much I know, and it changes nothing about maintaining a repentant attitude over transgressing God's law. People are asked to remain with that repentant attitude and to stay in Christ (in the sense of being under his blood and under his lordship [which means you do what he says; thus, verses like, "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" - Luke 6:46 and "Jesus replied, 'Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching [...] Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching' [...]" - John 14:23-24]).
People might be tempted to call that "works salvation" but that's because "mainstream Christian doctrine" has conditioned us to hate the word "doing" in relation to Christ. But taking a second to analyze this, we can't give the glory to anyone but God regardless, even for obeying Jesus: not only does he provide us with new desires as a born-again person, he puts his Holy Spirit in us to help us walk in his righteousness, he provided the appropriate atonement sacrifice. He helps us stay loyal to him and he continues to intercess in the heavenly tabernacle (however it is that the heavenly priesthood works; I don't know the "how's", how the once and for all thing "works" in that tabernacle, but I trust/believe that it's working). I just have to stay repentant and keep believing. The Old Testament doesn't touch this, but the following is fairly reasonable to ask/assume: had an Israelite not believed that the sacrifice would atone for them, would they have been forgiven of their sins? I don't think so. Belief was an element even back then. And it is he who will resurrect us, he who will provide a body that no longer wants to sin (after the resurrection). He's providing the resurrection and the resurrection body. No one can boast about anything. All of that was a favor / act of grace, even the ability to seek repentance and the ability to obey Jesus in the first place is an act of grace. Doesn't negate that he still told us to do both (repent of your sins / turn from your wicked ways and believe Jesus). Which now that I mention this, I'll answer the following here too:
Spirit Reborn
What does it mean to believe in Him? Does eternal life equal salvation/entering the Kingdom of Heaven on judgement day? :3
Belief is obedience. They're essentially the same thing: you obey the one you believe in. You put into practice the instructions of the one you believe in: is it God? or man?
Pastor told me this, but God says this. Who do we believe?
Christian doctrine says this, but God and his biblical servants in scripture overwhelmingly say this. Who do we believe?
Comparing things back to "Exodus times" is helping me understand eternal life a lot better: if Jesus is our Passover lamb, then that means death will pass over us (second death). But if people stop believing along the way, they're not making it into the promised land despite death having passed over them (I'm not sure whether to apply Jesus' millenial reign to this analogy, or the New Jerusalem after this earth and heavens disappears: but whichever the case, some former-believers clearly will not be living with him for losing their belief).
Quote:
Romans 11:13-21 (NIV)
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
About evangelism:
Spirit Reborn
[...]if I were to witness to someone, how would I go about presenting the gospel and letting them know that it's not an eternal security if you ask Jesus into your life to be your Lord and Savior- that it is possible to fall away from the faith/reject the faith, that they have to repent daily and continually keep the faith?
"Eternal security" is another one of those phrases that doesn't appear in the bible itself, so man must've defined that for us. And if man defined it, then there are probably multiple definitions for it: so, how exactly are you using that phrase? Because once we have persevered, eternal life with God is guaranteed. razz
As far as how to witness in light of all this, I don't see much of a difference: except saying, "you must persevere in the faith: believing that he is your atonement sacrifice, that he died and rose from the dead three days later, and that he is your Lord, and if you believe Jesus is your Lord, then you will do what he said".
Jesus died for our sins, as our atonement sacrifice, he lives to intercede for us as our High Priest; it's not a sacrifice that has to be done over and over again, but you have to be open about your sin, confess it, maintain a repentant attitude towards sin, not want sin, not cherish sin. And if He is your Lord, you will obey him as a saved person. Stay faithful/loyal to Jesus and his testimony until the end; persevere and you will inherit eternal life. That is the biblical message.
Spirit Reborn
Not sure if you're familiar with Ray Comfort and his techniques in how to witness to others but I'll give you a video example. The guy witnessing in this video example is Kirk Cameron. YouTube
As far as guiding people to realize, "I've transgressed God's law and deserve to go to hell" that's fine/sound. By the time you get to the 3:00 mark though, I don't think he realizes that it equally applies to Christians:
"All liars will have their part in the lake of fire" - partial quote of Revelation 21:8 KJV "Do not be deceived: no thief and no adulterer will enter the kingdom of Heaven". - partially quoting 1 Corinthians 6:8-10
Ergo, why Paul is telling us not to be deceived.
...which is also why John is telling us not to be deceived (KJV) / led astray (NIV):
Quote:
1 John 3:7 (KJV)
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Quote:
1 John 3:7 (NIV)
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
I'm reminded of Jesus' parable about the Wedding Banquet (Matthew 22:8-14): essentially, someone who accepted the invitation, AND successfully made it in, gets kicked out later for wearing his own robes. A lot of people like to say, "for putting on your own works". More accurately: we need to put on Christ: his righteousness, his nature, or we're getting kicked out of the city despite the second death "passing over" us (seeing as everyone on that new heavens and new earth in Revelation 22 had already gone through judgment; Revelation 20 is when that Great White throne judgment occurred. So these people are not in the lake of fire).
Quote:
Revelation 22:14-15 (NIV)
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Quote:
Luke 13:28 (NIV)
"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
...implied: you were inside and got kicked out. That's gotta hurt. I do not want to be one of them stressed
Quote:
Matthew 22:8-14 (NIV)
8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.
Quote:
Ephesians 4:22-24 (NIV)
22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Quote:
Colossians 3:5-10 (NIV)
5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[a] 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
Footnotes:
a. Colossians 3:6 Some early manuscripts coming on those who are disobedient
Quote:
Revelation 3:1-5 (NIV)
1 “To the angel[a] of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits[b] of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
Footnotes:
Revelation 3:1 Or messenger; also in verses 7 and 14 Revelation 3:1 That is, the sevenfold Spirit
Quote:
1 John 2:6 (NIV)
Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
We need to be dressed like our Creator; we need to totally disrobe of our earthly nature.
---
Well, after looking up all these verses, if I wasn't on fire to be like Christ before, I'm definitely on fire now. emotion_dowant
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Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 3:22 pm
real eyes realize
Well, after looking up all these verses, if I wasn't on fire to be like Christ before, I'm definitely on fire now. emotion_dowant
I'm so glad that this is helping you in turn! Praise God! After reading your reply, I felt so happy that I, too, feel on fire for God. Thank you for your reply, I feel like this is true. I also don't want to get thrown out from the kingdom of God..that'd be awful..' Some verses I found, that further helped me understand, were: Hebrews 5:9
Quote:
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Quote:
Luke 8:21 21 He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
Quote:
James 2:14-26 14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Quote:
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
But then I found these verses and became a bit confused sweatdrop Faith and works seem to go hand in hand- if you have faith, then your works will show it but then I see this verse:
Quote:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
I'm probably misunderstanding the meaning of the verse above entirely sweatdrop
I'm also not quite sure what verse 11 means/entails exactly.
Quote:
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Also..sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record D: but when you say that we need to put on Christ: His righteousness, His nature.. what exactly are we putting on? I guess what I'm asking is what does "righteousness" entail? I noticed this verse that we must become holy as well as righteous
Quote:
and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Ephesians 4:24
To be clothed with Christ, does it mean to:
Quote:
12Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Is there anything else that one must do to be clothed in Christ that the verses in Ephesians above did not include? Also, what does it mean to be holy according to scriptures? It's something that I want to work on.
What a blessing the internet can be 3nodding I've learned so much and God has used resources from the internet and godly people such as yourself to help me have a closer relationship and understanding with and of Him. emotion_bigheart
Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 2:21 pm
Spirit Reborn
But then I found these verses and became a bit confused sweatdrop Faith and works seem to go hand in hand- if you have faith, then your works will show it but then I see this verse:
Quote:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
I'm probably misunderstanding the meaning of the verse above entirely sweatdrop
The way I see it, the Holy Spirit is that gift that enables us to walk in his righteousness (what he defines as right; so to walk like him). We can't give ourselves that Holy Spirit, ergo, we can't boast. He gives it: some of us receive it upon having others lay hands on us (Acts 8:18; 2 Timothy 1:6), some of us receive the Holy Spirit out of directly asking God for it (Luke 11:13). It comes from God, not us, that's why we can't boast. He did us a favor, thus grace, a help we did not deserve/merit.
Philippians 2:13 (NIV)
for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
1 Corinthians 15:10 (NIV)
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
Spirit Reborn
I'm also not quite sure what verse 11 means/entails exactly.
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Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
"And that is what some of you were" means, "that was the life we use to have / that is the way we use to be", but thanks to what Jesus did (atonement sacrifice and being our passover lamb), and now having the Holy Spirit, we're no longer that. And it's because of Jesus that we were even sent the Holy Spirit to begin with.
John 16:7 (NIV)
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
Spirit Reborn
Also..sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record D: but when you say that we need to put on Christ: His righteousness, His nature.. what exactly are we putting on? I guess what I'm asking is what does "righteousness" entail? I noticed this verse that we must become holy as well as righteous
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and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Ephesians 4:24
To be clothed with Christ, does it mean to:
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12Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Yes, that's exactly it; to put on that nature/His nature, leave our carnal/earthly one behind which lacks those Godly / Jesus-like virtues.
Spirit Reborn
Is there anything else that one must do to be clothed in Christ that the verses in Ephesians above did not include?
If there is, I'm not aware of it. Though it does imply that we're no longer contradicting the Father nor the Son on any point because we're acting like him now. So we're no longer hostile towards anything in his law:
Romans 8:6-8 (NIV)
6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
Spirit Reborn
Also, what does it mean to be holy according to scriptures? It's something that I want to work on.
Holy = something consecrated for the use of God / set apart / unlike the other things in the world.
The opposite of "holy" = "profane" (common like everything else / for the common every day use / nothing special).
So, for example, when he says "keep the sabbath day holy", he means "treat it unlike the other 6 days". That's why he said:
to work/have others work on the other six days but not that one (Exodus 20:8-11),
that it's a day for sacred assembly (Leviticus 23:3) and so we have examples of Jesus and of Paul going into a synagogue on the sabbath to hear a portion from the law and the prophets being read OR to teach others / debate with other believers (Luke 4:15-20; Acts 17:2),
the instructions not to buy/sell, carry heavy burdens on that day (Nehemiah 13:15-22),
nor cook or gather food on that day, instead preparing double the amount on the previous day (Exodus 16:21-30; Exodus 35:3),
any labor done on this day is for emergency purposes to save people's lives and heal (Matthew 12:10-12),
we're not to seek what we want but what he wants on that day, not speaking idle words (Isaiah 58:13).
To sum it all up, it is a 24-hour period for physical and spiritual rest, a pause from the common tasks/chores/work/worldly business that we do the rest of the week, and just rest and concentrate on the spiritual/Him. That's why it is holy (all of his appointed days are; that's why they're referred to as "Sabbaths" plural, not just the weekly one, but the yearly ones too; they're unlike the other days).
Another example: God is Holy. In what way? YHWH/Jesus is unlike the other gods/spirits. He's set apart from creation, he's not created—unlike the demons and other spirits pagans worship. Unlike the idols humans make with their own hands. And thus, why God is very strict about not using pagan ways to worship him, so nobody makes any mistake: YHWH is not like your gods, he is unique. Thus every single command he gave to the Israelites would not only make them holy (set apart from the world's ways / set apart from how the rest of the nations went about doing things) but demonstrated, "our God is not like your gods".
Ezekiel 22:26 (NIV)
Her priests do violence to my law and profane my holy things; they do not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean; and they shut their eyes to the keeping of my Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.
Leviticus 11:45 (NIV)
I am the Lord, who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.
Deuteronomy 12:4 (NIV) 4 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way.
Deuteronomy 12:30-31 (NIV)
30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Matthew 6:7 (NIV)
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
1 Corinthians 10:20 (NIV)
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.
1 Thessalonians 4:4-5 (NIV)
4 that each of you should learn to control your own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God;
Footnotes:
a. 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Or learn to live with your own wife; or learn to acquire a wife
So, when he takes us out of the world, we're suppose to leave worldly/pagan ways behind: not only because the commands look out for our own good but to make it very clear: THE GOD OF ISRAEL IS HOLY, not like the things/entities/non-entities you worship.
Spirit Reborn
What a blessing the internet can be 3nodding I've learned so much and God has used resources from the internet and godly people such as yourself to help me have a closer relationship and understanding with and of Him. emotion_bigheart
Indeed, thank you Heavenly Father for the internet. If it were not for tools like biblegateway where I can do word searches and find related verses that mention the same word, I would not have discovered so much about God in so little time. And to realize that he hasn't changed from Old Testament to New was very eye opening.
real eyes realize
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Spirit Reborn
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 2:32 pm
real eyes realize
Thank you, that all makes sense. 3nodding These verses have been confusing me as well. sweatdrop What is meant what they say: "...You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ: you have fallen away from grace."? Does he mean circumcised by works?
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1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Thank you, that all makes sense. 3nodding These verses have been confusing me as well. sweatdrop What is meant what they say: "...You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ: you have fallen away from grace."? Does he mean circumcised by works?
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1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
I'll answer this one first, then reply to the articles later: in Galatians 5, people wanted to be justified by law-keeping; they're believing that to be saved, they had to be circumcised. Circumcision is not how you receive righteousness: it's by faith through the Spirit. Circumcision doesn't make you born-again.
That said, Christians can get circumcised without denying Christ and falling away from grace; Paul himself (who wrote Galatians) circumcises Timothy in Acts 16:
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Acts 16:1-3 (NIV)
1 Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2 The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:15 pm
real eyes realize
I'll answer this one first, then reply to the articles later: in Galatians 5, people wanted to be justified by law-keeping; they're believing that to be saved, they had to be circumcised. Circumcision is not how you receive righteousness: it's by faith through the Spirit. Circumcision doesn't make you born-again.
That said, Christians can get circumcised without denying Christ and falling away from grace; Paul himself (who wrote Galatians) circumcises Timothy in Acts 16:
Ah, I see.. Thank you 3nodding I guess I was confused at the word circumcision and if it meant literal or spiritual.
Thank you so much for helping me to understand these verses and articles!
The truth is, Jesus was showing us the CONTINUATION of God's moral law found in the Old Testament and summing it up as a LAW OF LOVE, not replacing it. Of course we are talking about the moral law here, not the ceremonial laws which Christ did away with at the cross (Colossians 2:14).
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Sure, the ceremonial laws which needed the earthly priestly service was hung upon the cross and is done away with in Christ, but not the ten commandments.
Error.
First of all, "the handwriting of ordinances" that speaks contrary to us is not God's law. Knowing that Paul never spoke against God's law—he spoke against the law of sin in our flesh which we were once under the dominion of—that means the "done away with" interpretation is an unstable twisting of Paul's words, especially considering how Paul claims to be a slave to God's law in Romans 7:25 (as a good thing).
There is an interpretation which makes much more cohesive sense in light of the jealousy offering made in Old Testament: if a husband (in this case God) suspected his wife (Israel) of being unfaithful, he takes her to the temple, the priest writes a curse on a scroll, makes her drink a bitter drink, and if she cheated / was unfaithful / adulterous, her thigh would rot /abdomen would swell, which physically matches the description, bloated abdomen and all, of what Jesus endured for us (described in Numbers 5:11-31); that is the handwriting of ordinances that speaks contrary to us.
Second of all, those "ceremonial laws" that are often said to be done away with are being carried out / kept in the third temple described throughout Ezekiel 40-44 (third temple yet to be built).
The Feast of Tabernacles, also an Old Testament ceremonial law, will be kept when Jesus starts to reign on earth; whoever doesn't come up to observe the Feast of Tabernacles will get sent plague / rain withheld from their nation. I'll quote the whole chapter just to keep it in context (that it's after Jesus returns to reign), but the Feast of Tabernacles bit (and the bit about the continued sacrifices which are also mentioned in Zechariah 14, not just Ezekiel) I'll underline: they have NOT been done away with; they just can't be kept without a temple.
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Zechariah 14 (NIV)
1 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake[a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.
12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.
16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord[b] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
20 On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite[c] in the house of the Lord Almighty.
Footnotes:
a. Zechariah 14:5 Or 5 My mountain valley will be blocked and will extend to Azel. It will be blocked as it was blocked because of the earthquake b. Zechariah 14:18 Or part, then the Lord c. Zechariah 14:21 Or merchant
Further evidence that those ceremonial laws were not done away with: the prophet Isaiah (in Isaiah 66:22-24) speaks of a time when all mankind will keep God's New Moons and Sabbaths (and for all intents and purposes, it has just been the Jews from the southern kingdom of Judah who've been keeping it faithfully; only within recent decades have Christian sects started keeping the biblical Sabbaths, some just the weekly, others including the yearly as well).
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Isaiah 66:22-24 (NIV)
22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Isaiah also talks about a time when Gentile nations will come to offer up animal sacrifices in God's temple:
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Isaiah 60:6-7 (NIV)
6 Herds of camels will cover your land, young camels of Midian and Ephah. And all from Sheba will come, bearing gold and incense and proclaiming the praise of the Lord. 7 All Kedar’s flocks will be gathered to you, the rams of Nebaioth will serve you; they will be accepted as offerings on my altar, and I will adorn my glorious temple.
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The Pharisees were very meticulous about keeping the laws of God, ALL 613 of them. But the problem was, they lost sight of the true meaning of their relationship with God, which was love. They completely lost sight of loving God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, and the law just became this "thing they had to do" in order to be saved. Hence why they were very legalistic. Without that love for God, the external observance of God's Commandments becomes worthless legalism. THIS IS WHAT JESUS WHAT TEACHING THEM.
The Pharisees' lack of love was only half of the problem when it came to their legalism. Jesus also told the Pharisees to stop ignoring God's law in order to observe their made up traditions—traditions which outright negated/went against a command in God's law (Matthew 15 / Mark 7; Matthew 23:1-3). I explained it in more detail in another thread originally: Derek Prince: Laying Down The Foundation. I'll copy and paste it into spoiler tags:
A few other things I've noted so far:
His definition of "legalism" as merely keeping a set of rules for justification: there's more to legalism than that.
First, let's all keep in mind that "legalism" is not a term that appears in the bible, so there's no concrete foundation for what it means; that said, if the term will be applied (to a Pharisee for instance, who I hear it most often applied to), we need to be cognizant of their crime in scripture:
(1) placing more importance on the traditions and doctrines of men, (2) imposing it upon people as if it were God's word, (3) going with those teachings and traditions despite it contradicting something God said in scripture (4) thinking people are more holy for keeping those man-made, self-imposed rules/traditions/doctrines.
Basically, what's going on in Matthew 15:1-20 / Mark 7:1-23 over the hand-washing tradition (which is not a law spoken by God), but the Pharisees were calling Jesus' disciples "defiled" for not following that tradition.
Thus, making the burden heavier than it needs to be (what Jesus accused the Pharisees of doing in Matthew 23). Interesting to note: Jesus is insinuating that they make the burden heavier when they don't put the law of Moses into practice.
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Matthew 23:1-4 (NIV)
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Contrary to popular belief, God's law / Moses' law is not the burden, but man's traditions and interpretations, adding to or taking away from what God said.
There are references which suggest that God's law is freedom and freedom from sin:
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James 1:25 (NIV)
25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.
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James 2:12 (NIV)
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,
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Romans 7:25 (NIV)
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[a] a slave to the law of sin.
Footnotes:
a. Romans 7:25 Or in the flesh
If Jesus did not sin (ergo, did not transgress the law, according to the definition of "sin" in 1 John 3:4), that means he didn't add or take away from a single word His Father spoke to Moses' (or that would be a violation of Deuteronomy 4:2).
...which leads me to my next point:
His interpretation of Romans 6:14...
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Romans 6:14 (NIV)
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Most are unaware that Paul speaks of at least two different laws at work (and I already cited a verse that reveals this): the law of sin in the flesh (which leads to death) VS. God's law. The latter Paul admits he is a slave to. The former he has been liberated from. Again:
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Romans 7:25 (NIV)
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[a] a slave to the law of sin.
Footnotes:
a. Romans 7:25 Or in the flesh.
If we received a new nature, thanks to being under the new covenant, and thus have God's law written on our heart and have received the Holy Spirit, then of course we're not under the power of sin / have sin as our master anymore; we're no longer under the flesh's law of sin. That's the law Paul is referring to in Romans 6:14 that's we're no longer under, made all the more clear by saying sin isn't our master anymore. I'll quote the preceding verses for even more context:
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Romans 6:11-14 (NIV)
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
The verses in prophecy or verses talking about a prophecy mentioning the new covenant say God's law would be on our hearts under that new covenant: Jer 31:31-33; Eze 36:25-27; Heb 8:10
On a related note, the dichotomy between God's law and grace. There isn't one. Derek Prince didn't even define grace in concrete terms; grace is simply this: you didn't deserve/merit an act of kindness from God, but he gave it to you anyway.
Which leads me to say this...
The very act of God handing over any instructions to man is an act of grace: humanity didn't "deserve" that they be given any guidance to keep them from self-destructive behavior; ergo, God was doing us a favor (demonstrating grace) by giving us instructions for our "own good" (Deuteronomy 10:12-13), so everything we did would be "prosperous and successful" (Joshua 1:8), and help us avoid people falling into poverty (Deuteronomy 15:4-5). All three verses are about obeying the Law/putting it into practice. God helped us avoid detrimental behavior, not only to ourselves, but even the land (thus the sabbaths for the land), but if the land hurts, then so do we, so technically it's all goes back to being for our own good.
The "grace" under the New Covenant, aside from the atonement sacrifice Jesus provided, is the Holy Spirit. Jesus' sacrifice wipes our transgressions and the Holy Spirit helps us walk in his righteousness.
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Ezekiel 36:25-27 (NIV)
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
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Philippians 2:13 (NIV)
for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
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John 16:13 (NIV)
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
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Psalm 119:43 (NIV)
Never take your word of truth from my mouth, for I have put my hope in your laws.
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Daniel 9:13 (NIV)
Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth.
People could use the following to say truth is different...
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John 1:17 (NIV)
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
... if they don't take a second to remember that Jesus only spoke his Father's words, not adding to or taking away from what was already established as truth by the Father. He only spoke against interpretations of man and traditions that contradicted the law and the prophets.
It wasn't until recently, in the mid-to-late 2000's I would say, that people started coming out of this error (the way they define legalism, law and grace). Most of these old videos probably will have this error in it taught as truth, but it's not. Jesus taught his disciples to keep the Law of Moses, and not be led astray by the doctrine of the Pharisees (traditions and man's interpretation over God's word). They made disciples based on Jesus' teachings (and he taught the disciples to practice Moses). Paul taught no different: it's just that people don't see the different laws he's referring to and that he, Paul himself, continued living according to the law as a saved man (Acts 21:19-24) even keeping the feast days of Leviticus 23 as long as the temple was up (things such as Pentecosts/Feast of Weeks and Passover).
That said, of what I've heard so far: I would agree that a disciple keeps the Word of God. A person claiming to love God must love his Word equally as much. There's no such thing as loving God, and hating his Word / thinking it's not important. And we shouldn't deviate from it even in the slightest degree.
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Jesus didn't say hang the law and prophets on the cross. He said hang them on these two greatest commandments. In other words, if we are truly keeping these two commandments, then we will keep the ten commandments and what the prophets said.
To sincerely keep what the prophets said would call for keeping more than just the 10 commandments—that's what God commanded through the Prophets (note: the following are all prophets; notice what they're commanding):
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Zechariah 7:12 (NIV)
12 They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the Lord Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the Lord Almighty was very angry.
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Daniel 9:13 (NIV)
Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth.
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Isaiah 66:17 (NIV)
17 “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things—they will meet their end together with the one they follow,” declares the Lord.
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Isaiah 58 (NIV)
1 “Shout it aloud, do not hold back. Raise your voice like a trumpet. Declare to my people their rebellion and to the descendants of Jacob their sins. 2 For day after day they seek me out; they seem eager to know my ways, as if they were a nation that does what is right and has not forsaken the commands of its God. They ask me for just decisions and seem eager for God to come near them. 3 ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say, ‘and you have not seen it? Why have we humbled ourselves, and you have not noticed?’
“Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please and exploit all your workers. 4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife, and in striking each other with wicked fists. You cannot fast as you do today and expect your voice to be heard on high. 5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen, only a day for people to humble themselves? Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed and for lying in sackcloth and ashes? Is that what you call a fast, a day acceptable to the Lord?
6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? 7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter— when you see the naked, to clothe them, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? 8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness[a] will go before you, and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard. 9 Then you will call, and the Lord will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
“If you do away with the yoke of oppression, with the pointing finger and malicious talk, 10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday. 11 The Lord will guide you always; he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land and will strengthen your frame. You will be like a well-watered garden, like a spring whose waters never fail. 12 Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins and will raise up the age-old foundations; you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls, Restorer of Streets with Dwellings.
13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the Lord’s holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, 14 then you will find your joy in the Lord, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.” For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
Footnotes:
Isaiah 58:8 Or your righteous One
Laws alluded to in the above chapter (these are commands not listed in the 10 commandments, thus outside of Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5):
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Exodus 22:22 (NIV)
“Do not take advantage of the widow or the fatherless.
Quote:
Exodus 23:9 (NIV)
“Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt.
Quote:
Leviticus 19:18 (NIV)
18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
Quote:
Deuteronomy 15:7-8 (NIV)
7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8 Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need.
Quote:
Deuteronomy 24:17 (NIV)
Do not deprive the foreigner or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge.
Quote:
Deuteronomy 27:19 (NIV)
“Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.” Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
But let's not leave it there; let's take it back to Jesus: the rich man asked Jesus what must he do to inherit eternal life, Jesus didn't just simply reiterate the ten commandments: he quoted from the rest of Torah (Leviticus 19:13 to be exact).
Quote:
Mark 10:17-19 (NIV)
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[a]”
Footnotes:
a. Mark 10:19 Exodus 20:12-16; Deut. 5:16-20
Quote:
Leviticus 19:13 (NIV)
“‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor. “‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.
As you can see from the footnotes of Mark 10, the ten commandments are listed in Exodus 20; Deuteronomy 5. Those portions of scripture do not mention "defrauding"; "You shall not defraud" is not a part of the 10 commandments. Yet Jesus is telling us to keep something outside the ten commandments in order to inherit eternal life. This argument that "10 commandments = moral law, the rest are something else and have been scrapped / nothing of your concern to observe" theology is another error that has crept into the church. It should've been obvious to them if they saw Jesus quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 (which the author of the article acknowledged).
Article
We've already shown that Jesus was quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 when quoting the greatest commandments.
They almost reached the right conclusion, but it's not just the 10 commandments Jesus insinuated we keep. He insinuated we keep Moses and the prophets, and that his disciples not only teach it all, but practice it all (obviously out of love not fear).
Again,
Quote:
Matthew 23:1-3 (NIV)
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Quote:
Matthew 5:17-20 (NIV)
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
The Pharisees preached Moses. They read the verses outloud accurately enough, but they didn't put it into practice. Moses included all those love commands, caring for widows, not oppressing, being merciful instead of ruthless in your treatment towards those beneath you / under your authority. And, as long as there is a temple, those ceremonial laws will be kept. The third temple has yet to be built though.
---
Sigh, what to say about the "Eternal Salvation and Eternal Rewards" article; they keep using the phrase "eternal salvation" but never define what they're referring to. Without that clear definition, it's hard to comment on anything or follow along with his arguments.
A question: salvation from what exactly? Once you specify that, you don't even have to bother getting into the "eternal rewards" topic (verses I don't think I even referred to because I wasn't talking about eternal rewards; I pointed to the verses implying that God works in us/through us, He puts his law on our hearts, and that we must persevere in the faith to be saved, if we disown him, he'll disown us; if we stop believing we won't be saved just like the generation in Egypt).
So, what does the bible say we're saved from?
we're saved from sin:
Quote:
Ephesians 2:1-5 (NIV)
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Footnotes:
Ephesians 2:3 In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit.
Quote:
Romans 6:16 (NIV)
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
and we're saved from the punishment of sin (which is death [defeated via our resurrection—or our transformation if we're not dead by the time he comes back], saved from the second death which is the lake of fire / saved from getting thrown into everlasting fire with the devil and his angels). Not surprisingly, people who get thrown into the lake of fire never repented / failed to stay repentant over sin / they're not following/believing Jesus, the Word of God, they're not born-again:
Quote:
Matthew 5:29-30 (NIV)
29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Quote:
Matthew 25:31-46 (NIV)
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Quote:
Revelation 14:9-11 (NIV)
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
...my point in quoting the above verses (Rv 14:9-11) is that they're worshiping the beast, not Jesus.
Quote:
John 3:3 (NIV)
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
Footnotes:
a. John 3:3 The Greek for again also means from above; also in verse 7.
Quote:
1 Peter 1:23 (NIV)
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
Quote:
Ephesians 5:25-27 (NIV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Footnotes:
Ephesians 5:26 Or having cleansed
Those who believed the Word of God, have been washed by the Word and thus follow and apply the Word of God, are saved. They can have "assurance" that they're saved because they know if they're submitting to His Word and not in hostility against it/him. People who reject his Word are the ones who will be left feeling unsure about salvation. But even though I'm sure about my salvation, I fully recognize that I have to persevere in the faith, believing it all.
Icing on the cake: the only verse in the NIV/KJV which uses the phrase "eternal salvation" is Hebrews 5:9, which states:
Quote:
Hebrews 5:8-10 (NIV)
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Quote:
Hebrews 5:8-10 (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Which did not sound like anything they were using in the article to define "eternal salvation" and what is required for it.
That article didn't add anything of value / help clear anything up. Can I just say, I hate articles who just want to argue "stances" that exist in the theological world but never go for the literal definitions as they appear in the bible. I know this article was published (or written?) in 1996 so I don't know if they would've been able to find the verses as easily as we can today, but there's really no excuse for that wishy-washy/fuzzy definition of things. The bible is very clear when it gives a definition for a phrase: for instance, see how clearly the bible defines "sin" as "breaking/transgressing the law" [1 John 3:4];"repentance" as "turning from your wicked ways towards God's ways/ away from your unjust ways in which you use to act towards God's just ways" [Acts 3:19-26; Luke 3:3-14] ...
Quote:
Acts 3:19-26 (NIV)
19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’[a]
24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’[b] 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”
Footnotes:
a. Acts 3:23 Deut. 18:15,18,19 b. Acts 3:25 Gen. 22:18; 26:4
Quote:
Luke 3:3-14 (NIV)
3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4 As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
“A voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him. 5 Every valley shall be filled in, every mountain and hill made low. The crooked roads shall become straight, the rough ways smooth. 6 And all people will see God’s salvation.’”[a]
7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.
11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”
12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”
13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.
14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”
He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”
Footnotes:
a. Luke 3:6 Isaiah 40:3-5
).
So simple.
Like I explained previously, if we're looking at salvation in the sense of "death passing over us" like it did for the Israelites in Egypt (passover lamb's blood covers the believers / death passes over their households, saved from the world, then given commands on the way to the promised land, of those who stopped believing, "can't enter sorry"), then for us it will be "Jesus' blood, our passover Lamb's blood, covers us / second death passes over us, judgment day passes/we scapegoated the lake of fire completely, whether we can enter the kingdom (or not) depends on whether we cleaned our robes / put on the new nature which consists of having the law/commands on our hearts, have the Spirit in us fanned into flame, which helps us walk in His commands, thus we have been cleansed of our earthly/worldly nature, our old nature. YHWH/Jesus took the Israelites out of Egypt, but of those who kept the Egypt inside of themselves (making gold calves, longing for their food instead of God's manna, violating the commands of idolatry, breaking the sabbath, commands which they agreed to keep beforehand which would make them his set-apart/distinguished people, disbelieving God could provide / questioning God's motives for what he instructed, that he actually had their best interests at heart, covenant breakers) he didn't allow in; likewise, depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you, you didn't do the will of my Father in heaven, will be the response some of these so-called "believers in the Lord" are gonna get.
Oh, and the article was making some very unstable assertions, for example:
Article
In addition, in his letters to churches Paul called himself an apostle of Jesus Christ (cf. Rom 1:1; 1 Cor 1:1; 2 Cor 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; etc.). Surely he knew that there were no unsaved apostles (cf. 1 Cor 12:1-31, esp. v 28)! Equally certain is that he wouldn’t have called himself an apostle if he had any doubt about whether he was saved or not!
Paul and John mention false apostles. I'm pretty sure those apostles are not saved. Not all who call themselves "apostles" will be saved.
Quote:
2 Corinthians 11:13 (NIV)
For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
Quote:
Revelation 2:2 (NIV)
2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.
And what does Paul being an apostle have anything to do with his assurance of salvation? Zilch. His assurance is that he has denied nothing of what was passed on to him—anything that was in accord with the Law, the prophets, and the gospel/testimony of Jesus Christ.
Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:36 pm
real eyes realize
Can't thank you enough for being detailed in your response and for your time and patience. You've really helped me to understand 3nodding I was reminded of 119 ministries while browsing through my facebook feeds the other day and I remember asking in one of their posts about the Sabbath Day and they gave me a link to the Sabbath day video on their website. I hope to start watching it today, God-willing. I also remember you mentioning 119 ministries as a recommendation, I believe. Also read their faith statement and noticed it was pretty much the same thing that you've said in your explanation which helped as well.
It seems kind of surreal..I feel so hungry for His Word, to want to know and understand Him more and to put into practice what I've learned and honestly..looking back at how I used to be before I was saved, I would never have thought that I would delve into this and actually want to seek Him and understand Him and serve Him. How great is our God for all that He's done for us and continues to do for us. emotion_bigheart
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