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 Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:43 am
1 Peter 3:18-19 states, "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison." 1 Peter 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does. gotquestions says that "The Bible tells us that we face judgment after death (Hebrews 9:27), not a second chance." What's your point of view and can you help clarify the meaning behind these verses, particularly whether second chance exists? Thank you! 4laugh
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:25 pm
Meili Kyumee Youichi 1 Peter 3:18-19 states, "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison." 1 Peter 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does. gotquestions says that "The Bible tells us that we face judgment after death (Hebrews 9:27), not a second chance." What's your point of view and can you help clarify the meaning behind these verses, particularly whether second chance exists? Thank you! 4laugh
Out of all the possibilities, he's either preaching to:
1. Believers
2. The totally ignorant
3. Unbelievers
Unless you can think of more possibilities?
I'll offer up another verse for consideration because I think the common
rationalization will be, "these are Old Testament saints; so because they
have never heard of Jesus, they need to hear the gospel now", but...
Luke 16:31 (NIV)
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets,
they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
They—Moses, the other Prophets, and Jesus—had the same message.
So, whatever message Jesus preached to the dead, it's not one they were
totally ignorant of before. What difference is there to be believed? Just that
the Messiah, who was prophesied, has manifested. But if he's preaching
to Old Testament saints (believers) then they would've already believed
about the Messiah, seeing as Moses and the Prophets spoke of him.
Luke 24:44-45 (NIV)
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses,
the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
I don't think he's giving dead, Old Testament saints a chance to change
their minds about the Messiah. But perhaps, telling them, the time has
come for me to liberate those of you who died believing and waiting on me.
I am he. The one prophesied in the scriptures (if he had to preach to his
living disciples and open their eyes, wouldn't he have to open the
understanding of the dead souls too? He still has to preach the message,
even to those who believe).
Ephesians 4:4-10 (NIV)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope
when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God
and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.
8 This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”[b]
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended
to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very
one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole
universe.)
Footnotes:
a. Ephesians 4:8 Or God
b. Ephesians 4:8 Psalm 68:18
c. Ephesians 4:9 Or the depths of the earth
Those Israelite saints who had been dead, had already heard the
gospel/Good News before they died. It's ONE faith. Not Judaism
over here and then there's Christianity over there. One faith.
One body. One Spirit. One Lord. One God and Father of all. So like
Jesus' disciples on earth, who had heard the good news, not just from
the scriptures, but now from Jesus' own mouth (not as a second chance,
but confirming what they were already expecting), then Jesus, assuming
he was preaching to the Old Testament saints, preached to those who
believed, to confirm what they already died believing in, even if they were
untrained in the scriptures like Peter and didn't have their eyes opened
until afterwards because of Jesus...
Acts 4:13 (NIV)
13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they
were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note
that these men had been with Jesus.
.. they could've had some vague notion of what was prophesied, but not entirely filled in
to the details, nor that it was now being fulfilled (and if this was true for the disciples
who walked with Jesus, then how much more those in the realm of the dead who died
long before Jesus manifested on earth; they can't see what's going on under the sun,
what we're doing, what he's doing; they can't be updated of anything unless someone
goes to them; they only know up to what they experienced in their last moments and
how they died e.g. the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 and the martyred souls in Revelation 6:10).
So this gospel:
Mark 8:31 (NIV)
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things
and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law,
and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (NIV)
15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached
to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By
this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.
Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ
died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he
was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 15:3 Or you at the first
...is not new to the dead, because "according to the Scriptures" refers to what
was prophesied in the Old Testament. Ergo, those souls to whom Jesus preached
to in death, were aware of the gospel, but had to be told it was now being
fulfilled and now was the time: "Where are my believers? Come, we're getting out".
The prophets weren't ignorant of the gospel:
1 Peter 1:10-12 (NIV)
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that
was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying
to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them
was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories
that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving
themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told
you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent
from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
---
Somewhat of a tangent:
That seems like a nice cohesive explanation, but what I do not understand
is this: how exactly are they being made alive prior to the resurrection?
is this different than the transformation which will happen at Jesus' return?
when he comes in the clouds? Because, yes, I see that some people were
resurrected on the same day that Jesus was raised from the dead:
Matthew 27:52-53 (NIV)
52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died
were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection
and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 27:53 Or tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they
But 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 talks about a resurrection that awaits the dead
at Jesus' return:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV)
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those
who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who
have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so
we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in
him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive,
who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those
who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,
with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet
call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are
still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to
meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore
encourage one another with these words.
Also, at the end of Hebrews 11, after going through a list of Old Testament
saints/believers, it says:
Hebrews 11:39-40 (NIV)
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had
been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only
together with us would they be made perfect.
"together with us"? end time resurrection? or have they already received the
promise now that Jesus has been raised to life...?
What's the difference between those who were raised to life in Matthew 27:52-53
and those who have yet to be raised to life? those still dying in Christ waiting for the
first resurrection? like in Revelation 14:
Revelation 14:13 (NIV)
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the
dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds
will follow them.”
If the dead in Christ don't get raised to life until Revelation 20:4-6 (the first
resurrection; the start of Jesus' millenial reign) what does it mean to be
made alive in the spirit? unless being raised to life in spirit is different
from being raised to life in a body? and what we witnessed in
Matthew 27:52-53 was being raised back into a body and not being raised
in spirit? (like the way Old Testament women had their sons raised to life
i.e. 1 Kings 17:22-24 and 2 Kings 4:32-37, respectively; one was the son
of a widow raised to life by the prophet Elijah; the other the son of the
Shunammite woman who had a husband, wasn't a widow, and this boy
was raised by the prophet Elisha [Elijah's successor]).
I think that's the case (those in Matthew 27 were raised to life and back into
a body, not raised in the spirit) because in 1 Corinthians 15, we're told:
1 Corinthians 15:20 (NIV)
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead,
the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Jesus was the first to be resurrected in the way that he was. It wasn't a regular
ol' flesh and blood body. Especially if he's walking through walls (apparently):
John 20:19 (NIV)
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples
were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders,
Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
John 20:26 (NIV)
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas
was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and
stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
1 Corinthians 15 gets confusing at times if you don't read it in one go,
because, in certain areas, it sounds like the resurrection is yet to come:
1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (NIV)
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those
who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the
resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all
die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the
firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end
will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has
destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he
has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed
is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says
that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not
include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has
done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put
everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 15:27 Psalm 8:6
And death being the last enemy to be defeated, it hasn't been defeated yet.
But then, when he starts describing the spiritual body, he sounds
kind of vague about when it is you receive it:
1 Corinthians 15:35-48 (NIV)
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body
will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless
it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a
seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as
he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not
all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another,
birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there
are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and
the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of
splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star
in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is
perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in
glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body,
it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written:
“The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving
spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the
spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is
of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth;
and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.
Footnotes:
a.1 Corinthians 15:45 Gen. 2:7
However, Paul gives it a date, so to speak: "at the last trump".
1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (NIV)
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot
inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the
imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but
we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the
last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised
imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must
clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable,
and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will
come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 15:54 Isaiah 25:8
...which ties in with 1 Thess 4:16, that I mentioned earlier :
("For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command,
with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the
dead in Christ will rise first.") NIV
So, this change of body is not upon death. This is Revelation 20:4-6
because that's when the dead in Christ get resurrected back to life,
and like John says, to be like he is.
1 John 3:2 (NIV)
2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet
been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like
him, for we shall see him as he is.
Footnotes:
a. 1 John 3:2 Or when it is made known
Which now that I mention it, Paul's second epistle to the Corinthians
can get just as confusing as his first if we don't read carefully:
2 Corinthians 5:1-4 (NIV)
5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a
building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly
dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because
we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our
heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
So, "earthly tent" = our body.
We have an "eternal house in heaven" = heavenly / spiritual body.
(also the shift from "tent" to "house" implies, "way more glorious")
If people quickly read the passage, they might think we put it on upon death,
but no, because verse 4 suggests, "we do not wish to be unclothed"
(die / take off our body) "but to be clothed instead with our heavenly
dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life", we
want to be transformed, instead of going through death / taking off the body
becoming naked in the process, lol.
/End Tangent
---
That said, let's address the other options: The IgnorantIf Jesus went to preach to people who had never heard of the gospel, at all,
heard nothing of the message which God spoke through Moses, nor through
God's other prophets, then that wouldn't be a "second chance" would it?
"Second chance" means, you heard the news, and you rejected it. You left
without believing something that was preached to you beforehand. Last
chance: are you sure? you still want to reject me? here's your second chance.
Unless you meant, here's your second chance to hear the message
in the first place?
But even in that case, I don't think he's preaching to people who never heard
it before either. For two reasons:
First reason: scripture says they weren't ignorant.
1 Peter 3:18-21 (NIV)
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous,
to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to
the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God
waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a
few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water
symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the
body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[b] It saves you by
the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Footnotes:
a. 1 Peter 3:19 Or but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also
b. 1 Peter 3:21 Or but an appeal to God for a clear conscience
God is waiting patiently. These people are being disobedient. They're not ignorant.
Who, from Noah's generation, was disobedient long ago and would be imprisoned as spirits?
Regardless of the interpretation you go with, either:
(A) the disobedient angels who rebelled, or
(B) the disobedient men and women of Noah's day
Neither of the two, both "A" and "B" were ignorant. They willfully rejected God.
2 Peter 2:4 (NIV)
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a]
putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment;
Footnotes:
a. 2 Peter 2:4 Greek Tartarus
b. 2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts in gloomy dungeons
2 Peter 2:5 (NIV)
5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly
people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
Noah preached to these people. If Noah is preaching, then the information
had made it to human ears. These humans are not ignorant.
And the angels are not being given a second chance because they will be
in chains until judgment day. So it doesn't seem like Jesus is rescuing them.
If he's preaching to imprisoned angels, it doesn't seem to me like a message
of reconciliation to give them a second chance; just inform them of something
(something like "I've triumphed, just so you know", lol). I use to think that
Colossians 1:20 was referring to angels being reconciled:
Colossians 1:19-20 (NIV)
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through
him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
But it could just as easily be referring to creation itself that is groaning:
Romans 8:22-23 (NIV)
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains
of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves,
who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly
for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
2 Corinthians 5:2 (NIV)
2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling,
And again, these angels are staying there until judgment day:
Jude 1:6 (NIV)
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but
abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness,
bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
Preaching to angels, for a chance to "get out jail" is out of the question.
They'll be there until judgment day. They're not the captives being set free.
If he's preaching to people, I don't think he's preaching to give people
a "second chance" at believing in what was prophesied, they weren't
ignorant of it. And like I mentioned earlier, preaching to those who died
already believing in the prophecies is more likely. Wouldn't they be the
captives (held captive by death) that needed to be liberated from death,
and made alive in the spirit like God / like Jesus? to be rewarded for
their faith?
Second reason (why I don't believe he's preaching to ignorant people
and ignorant in the sense of never having received special revelation
before dying [either by reading scriptures / tablets / scrolls; having it
read to them; having someone mention it to them; or miracles
/ messages directly from God]) is based on personal testimony for the
most part:
I have a memory as a little kid, I don't think I had started school yet,
let alone knew how to read, and I was thinking to myself, "I want that
old book that's about God". Naturally-speaking, there is no way I would
have come to know such a thing existed, because in my house growing
up, no one read the bible. I grew up watching my mom write up wishlists
and burn them up in the sink to have her wishes granted. My family was
steeped in superstition. One of my earliest memories is my uncle playing
magic tricks on me, touching the flame of a candle and not getting burnt,
then when I tried reaching for it everyone freaked out because it was a
trick and I thought it was safe to do literally. Occult stuff, deception, not the
bible. That was my childhood, pre-kindergarten (and that was around the
age I had this thought).
So, it was revelation from God that there was a book about him that I
craved. Some time after having that thought/desire cross my heart, I don't
know how long afterwards, but my stepdad's side of the family sends me a
children's bible (I still have it: let me go get it, "The Children's Illustrated Bible
Stories retold by Selina Hastings, illustrated by Eric Thomas". I see a 1994
copyright, so I was 4 years old, maybe 5 if it was passed my birthday).
Yeah, definitely was not in school yet.
So, I came to have a children's bible in my possession, some time after
having this thought/desire; but once I received the children's bible, I
remember feeling so excited one second, and then so disappointed/let down
the next, because when I opened it, I was like, "no, this is NOT it; it has
pictures in it; the boring one is the real one" lol. How did I come to know
that the one with pictures in it was not it? I was a kid. What did i know?
I'd never seen a bible before. "Bible" was not in my vocabulary. That
must have been revelation from God directly. A little kid with no
discernment is not going to know things like that.
But, I couldn't read anyway, nor was I fluent in English (the language
this children's bible was in), let alone fluent in my first language (Spanish).
So I was jumping too far ahead of my abilities. God clearly was like,
"this is all you can handle right now; this isn't the whole enchilada,
but because you wanted something, here you go" lol.
I had a Peter moment:
Matthew 16:17 (NIV)
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was
not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
So, I find it so very hard to believe that people will have received zero
special revelation in their life time [whether by preaching, or coming
across scripture in some way, shape, or form or revelation directly
from God]).
Also:
Romans 1:20 (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal
power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from
what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
In a nutshell, the two reasons Jesus is not preaching to the ignorant in death:
1. scripture suggests he wasn't preaching to ignorant people, but disobedient ones
2. scripture, and personal experience, tells me, there are no ignorant people;
God finds a way to communicate and get special revelation to you one way or
another, directly and/or through other means, like using people around you.UnbelieversI doubt he went to preach to unbelievers.
If the dead people being preached to were those who, in light of the revelation
God had given through Moses and the prophets, still chose to reject the
message of the Messiah, in life, then they would reject when the Messiah,
God himself, came to them in person. Because the message is not different.
Would a little torment, a little taste of their own medicine, change their mind?
I highly doubt it if in death they are anything like the following people were in life:
Jeremiah 5:3 (NIV)
3 Lord, do not your eyes look for truth?
You struck them, but they felt no pain;
you crushed them, but they refused correction.
They made their faces harder than stone
and refused to repent.
Even if Jesus offered to resurrect people from the realm of the dead,
wouldn't those who died as unbelievers be like, "uh, no, buddy — none
of us can get out; we've tried; you're nothing special". Who would believe
if not those who already believed what was written in Moses, the Psalms,
and the Prophets? that a resurrection awaits? and that there is a Messiah?
If they hated Moses, they'll hate Jesus too.
They spoke of the same things.
And another thought: if these people rejected the message preached by
Moses and then died, and saw "oh, I was wrong; Moses was right", then
they don't need Jesus coming along to preach what they already know.
Like I opened up by saying, Jesus is not preaching a different gospel
than the one already prophesied in scripture.
Perhaps though, if they came to believe in death, then wouldn't they just
fall under the first group (believers)? and thus be resurrected? And if
Jesus came to preach to them, it would be to let them know: "it has been
fulfilled, let's get outta here". question
About Hebrews 9:27, we die, but judgment isn't immediate.
There's a resurrection from the dead somewhere in between
there.
First Resurrection
Revelation 20:4-6 (NIV)
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given
authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been
beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the
word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and
had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They
came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of
the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share
in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them,
but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him
for a thousand years.
Second Resurrection
Revelation 20:7-15(NIV)
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his
prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the
earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they
are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth
of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.
But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil,
who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where
the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be
tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The
earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place
for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the
throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is
the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done
as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it,
and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each
person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death
and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the
second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the
book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
So whatever is going on between Point A ("death") and Point B
("judgment"), and just how permanent that is, I'm not
entirely sure. What I do know is that there is a chasm.
And those who rejected Moses and the Prophets cannot cross over.
Luke 16:19-31 (NIV)
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen
and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar
named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell
from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him
to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades,
where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away,
with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,
have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water
and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you
received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now
he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this,
between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that
those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross
over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not
also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them
listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead
goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets,
they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Of course, despite the rich man getting a taste of his own medicine,
reap what you sow, ("ignored Lazarus in life, saw him from afar,
stayed indifferent, refused to alleviate his pain / discomfort, as
you lived in total comfort and had more than enough to spare,
yet you gave none, didn't even send someone over to give him your
scraps"; so now get the same treatment back; you're in agonizing
discomfort, while Lazarus is far off, indifferent, in total comfort,
doesn't even respond to your presence, you're thirsty (maybe like
he was thirsty, under the hot sun, naked),so not a drop of food or
water for you; see how it feels like to be in his position), still,
I think that the chasm is a reality for all who reject Moses and the
Prophets. They're not thinking about God, his laws, his commands,
let alone loving their neighbor as themselves. Just their own appetites and
comforts. I don't want to argue from silence here, suggesting, "there
is absolutely no chance in hell (literally) to get to the other side", nor
can I say there is a chance absolutely. But, based on what Jesus
is conveying here, it looks like it's near impossible to switch over
once you're there.
In summation:
- it's more likely that he went to preach to believers who were already waiting
for a resurrection of some sort, who had accepted the message God spoke
through Moses and the Prophets
- scripture negates that these people (in 1 Pt 3) were ignorant; they were
disobedient, despite being preached to by Noah.
- people who rejected Moses and the prophets in life, will reject Jesus
too, because OT or NT, they had the same message; same gospel (whether
yet to be fulfilled or carried out already: a Messiah will be raised).
- it does not seem like you can switch sides once you're there (in the realm
of the dead); the only time I see people coming out is on judgment day
(once they're resurrected out of there to be judged: if their name is not
written in the book of life, they'll be cast into the lake of fire).
Considering all that, IF he actually did preach to unbelievers, no matter how
unlikely that appears to me, it doesn't seem like anything is changing for them
until judgment day / resurrection day.
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:36 am
Very well written Maria!
When you explained about natural and heavenly body, do you think it is possible that the natural body is torn in hell but the spirit is saved if they repent during the "waiting period between death and judgement"?
And so in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, isn't it seems like rich man has been judged already after death- and not waiting?
I hope you got what I meant. xp
heart
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:09 pm
Meili Kyumee Youichi Very well written Maria! When you explained about natural and heavenly body, do you think it is possible that the natural body is torn in hell but the spirit is saved if they repent during the "waiting period between death and judgement"? And so in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, isn't it seems like rich man has been judged already after death- and not waiting? I hope you got what I meant. xp heart
I think I understand what you're asking, but it depends on two factors,
which you have to clearly identify first before you can answer the
question:Factor #1.
Which "hell" you're referring to: certain versions translate two
different places (Hades and Gehenna) by the same English word "hell",
but they aren't the same place; one place you go to upon death, the
other, you get cast into alive (or have to be raised from the dead first
before you can be thrown in). I'll quote the KJV to illustrate this lack
of distinction in the English, and compare the verse to what appears
in the Greek.
So, which "hell" do you have in mind:
(a) Hades (the realm of the dead, where the rich man
was taken to upon death)?
Luke 16:22-23 (KJV)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried
by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died,
and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth
Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
source: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/16-23.htm
Concordance entry for "Hades":
source: http://biblehub.com/greek/86.htm
OR
(b) Gehenna (the lake of fire, the place referred to in
verses like Matthew 10:28)?
Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to
kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both
soul and body in hell.
source: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/10-28.htm
Concordance entry for "Gehenna":
source: http://biblehub.com/greek/1067.htm
And the verses suggesting you must be alive to get cast into
Gehenna/the lake of fire:
Revelation 19:20 (NIV)
20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who
had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had
deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and
worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the
fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Revelation 20:13-15 (NIV)
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades
gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged
according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were
thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life
was thrown into the lake of fire.
So either you're:
- cast in alive OR
- resurrected first / come back from the dead, then cast
into the lake of fire
(ergo "cast in alive" regardless; you don't go there upon death)
Once that—which hell you're talking about—has been
identified,Factor #2. Which side of the resurrection are we looking at?
Prior to the resurrection, the natural body returns to dust; bodies don't go
anywhere, just buried/cremated on earth. Bodies cannot enter Hades
at all (that hell, the realm of the dead, where the rich man is at,
is a place the angels carry you to; but they do not carry your body there).
Luke 16:22 (NIV)
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried
him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
By process of elimination, I've identified this part of the human being, that
angels carry to Hades, as the soul.
Let's color-code to identify the different aspects of the human being first:
Body = ███
Spirit =███
Soul = ███
Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.
Footnotes:
a. Genesis 2:7 The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be
related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah); it is also the name Adam
(see verse 20). Genesis 3:19 (NIV)
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
Job 33:4 (NIV)
4 The Spirit of God has made me;
the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (NIV)
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
[In the Hebrew, the same word used for "breath" is the word
used for "spirit"]
source: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ecclesiastes/12-7.htm
Concordance entry for "Ruach":
source: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7307.htm
Job 33:4 (KJV)
4 The spirit of God hath made me,
and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NIV)
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through
and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept
blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12 (NIV)
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any
double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and
spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes
of the heart.
Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the
soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and
body in hell.
I bother to go into all these verses because some people allege
that the "body" is the same thing as the "soul", based on how
Genesis 2:7 was translated in the KJV:
Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living soul.
But in light of the whole counsel of scripture, we're not just "body"
(dust) and "spirit" (God's breath). We're body, spirit and soul. Spirit
and soul are not the same things; no matter how difficult to distinguish
between the two, because the word of God can penetrate / divide
even that. And neither is "body" and "soul" the same thing because
man can kill the body, but not the soul.
So, once we look at all these verses, we can conclude that we are
made up of three-parts: body, spirit, and soul. And if the body
returns to dust, and the breath/spirit returns to the Father, what is
left unmentioned are the whereabouts of the soul upon death. I
suspect that is what the angels carry to the realm of the dead.
(I've noticed that people, even the concordance, tries to use "spirit"
and "soul" interchangaebly, but scripture doesn't. Scripture
makes a distinction between all three). So what's going into Hades
(that hell), the realm of the dead, is the soul, not the body. This
"hell" is not permanent; I quoted Revelation 20:14 earlier, where the
NIV translates it more honestly/acccurately, but for comparison:
Revelation 20:14 (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
Revelation 20:14 (NIV)
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is the second death.
No one is staying in Hades. By judgment day, it gives up its dead,
and it too gets cast into Gehenna/lake of fire.
After one's resurrection from the dead, (assuming one is not
written in the book of life) that's when the body gets cast into the
lake of fire (that other hell which is permanent), Gehenna, as
Matthew 10:28 states in the Greek, is the "hell" that receives
living bodies.
Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill
the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both
soul and body in hell.
So no, the rich man and Lazarus have not been judged yet, because
they're still dead, not resurrected. The rich man even asks that Abraham
resurrect Lazarus (a hint that they're not resurrected/alive, but dead).
Luke 16:27-31 (NIV)
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my
family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that
they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let
them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead
goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets,
they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
People don't get judged until they resurrect back to life (as I quoted
above in the Revelation 20 passages) or if they're alive at Jesus'
return, whichever comes first:
Matthew 25:31-33 (NIV)
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels
with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will
be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from
another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33
He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Matthew 25:41 (NIV)
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you
who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and
his angels.
The reason people get confused is because:
(1) some translations of the bible fail to distinguish between "Hades"
and "Gehenna" by translating both equally as "hell", e.g. KJV
(2) the rich man being in flames makes people think this is the lake
of fire, but it's not. It's Hades. Not the permanent place. Hades itself
gets cast into the lake of fire after it gives up all its dead. And I highly
suspect the flames in the rich man's case has to do with the
unbearable heat of the sun which the rich man allowed Lazarus to
stay in despite having resources to save him out of the heat; he was
rich, he could've had a servant build him some shade, plant a tree,
an umbrella, something. But no, he alleviated NONE of Lazarus'
pain. So his conscience is dealing back the same treatment that
he gave out. After all, the rich man doesn't mention being eaten
by worms, just that he's thirsty. Gehenna is the one with the worms: Mark 9:47-48 (NIV)
47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is
better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye
than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[a]
Footnotes:
a. Mark 9:48 Isaiah 66:24
And the Greek in Mark 9:47 says, "Gehenna", not "Hades"...
So, if the worms that never die (v.4 cool are in "Gehenna" (v. 47) and
the rich man went to "Hades" upon death, then the rich man is not
being eatenby worms that never die. He's not in the lake of fire,
because he's in "Hades", not "Gehenna". Ergo, he hasn't been
judged by God yet; he has to be resurrected first. This is just his
own actions coming back to haunt him in death and him feeling
its effects. The judgment of Gehenna seems to be very different
(for one, you must be resurrected first / alive; you can't be dead
—and yet Lazarus and the rich man are dead; do not confuse poor,
homeless Lazarus with the Lazarus Jesus raised from the dead
who is Mary and Martha's brother. They had a house, and could
afford things like perfumes. The poor Lazarus wasn't resurrected;
he stayed dead). Quote: When you explained about natural and heavenly body, do you think it is possible that the natural body is torn in hell but the spirit is saved if they repent during the "waiting period between death and judgement"?
Repentance was to help you avoid experiencing torment as you waited
for judgment day.
I think of:
Matthew 18:30-35 (NIV)
30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man
thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When
the other servants saw what had happened, they were
outraged and went and told their master everything that
had happened.
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked
servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours
because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had
mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’
34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers
to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you
unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
Matthew 5:25 (NIV)
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you
to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your
adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may
hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.
I suppose this is where ideas like purgatory come from. emotion_sweatdrop
But since judgment day awaits, what matters is if their name is
written in the book of life, regardless of what they experience in death,
in the realm of the dead as they wait for judgment day.
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Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:36 am
Thanks for the great explanation. ^_^
To sum up,
there are two types of hell but there is only one resurrection, right?
1 Peter 4:6
For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.
Isn't spirit supposed to just return to the Father then?
Does this verse can mean that the body/flesh (are they the same) go later on to Gehenna, but the spirit live with God - oh and where does the soul go in this context?
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:53 am
Meili Kyumee Youichi Thanks for the great explanation. ^_^ To sum up, there are two types of hell but there is only one resurrection, right? Meili Kyumee Youichi 1 Peter 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does. Isn't spirit supposed to just return to the Father then? Does this verse can mean that the body/flesh (are they the same) go later on to Gehenna, but the spirit live with God - oh and where does the soul go in this context?
But no, soul and body are not the same, for the aforementioned reason: man can kill the body but not the soul. There is some sense that soul and spirit are so interconnected to the point that they are difficult to distinguish, but they're not the same.
Ergo,
Hebrews 4:12 (NIV)
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged
sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it
judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Just like joints and marrow are not the same thing, and thoughts and attitudes are not the same thing, soul and spirit are not the same thing. (And soul and body are not the same thing, because soul cannot be killed by man but body can be killed by man). I suppose, once the soul is removed from the body, soul and spirit may be able to unite once again once the person is made alive like God in the spirit. But what comes together in death to be made alive or how exactly the spirit is made to be alive (all before getting resurrected inside their same physical body once more on earth) is not a process explicitly stated/revealed in Scripture.
edited 2.27.2023 - to remove "I guess" thinking and soundly re-emphasize what can be or cannot be determined explicitly from the text.
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