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 Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:08 pm
BY JERRY NEWCOMBE , CP OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR Jul 14, 2017 | 7:46 AM Perhaps, the most overused word in America is "hate." All you have to do is accuse someone who disagrees with you of hate, and that's it: guilty as charged. Former Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean even famously said recently that "hate speech" is not protected by the First Amendment. Continue reading: link
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:42 pm
The topic of "hate" has to be handled with surgical precision and Biblical accuracy; otherwise, we botch whatever the Bible is saying about it. The article gives the impression that all kinds of hatred is sinful, and that's not the case. And perhaps the English language is too limited, or the words "love" and "hate" too vague, but the world is not using the term "hate" incorrectly as the article made it seem. A word can have more than one application/meaning. So while this is true...
Galatians 5:19-25 (NIV)
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
...this is also true:
Proverbs 8:13 (NIV)
13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
Romans 12:9 (NIV)
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
Hatred has a place: if you're hating on wickedness—and even hating on wicked people based on the totality of the Biblical usage of "hate". But before illustrating that:
What the author of the article seems to be expressing is that Biblical Christians who live in obedience to the Law of God, and disagree with homosexuality, aren't physically violent (nor unlawful). Ok, that's true.
But just because physical violence is absent doesn't mean we're not hating on the sin (and hating on the person) in the way that God does, even if He (and thus we) care about their well-being and their needs, and don't delight in the demise that awaits them if they don't repent of their sins (again, like God, who shows love for His enemies—His haters, those who disagree Him and thus oppose Him).
He can love (care about) a person, and desire to save them, while at the same time, hating everything about their sinful being. Trying to dis-associate with the terminology of "hate" is not Biblically-sound. Nor is it Biblically sound to try to say that disagreement is not the same as hate; Biblically, it is. Disagreeing with wicked deeds is the same thing as hating wicked deeds and wanting nothing to do with them (and disagreeing with God is the same thing as hating God and wanting nothing to do with Him).
Jude 1:22-23 (NIV)
22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.[a]
Footnotes:
a. Jude 1:23 The Greek manuscripts of these verses vary at several points.
Psalm 101:4 (NIV)
4 The perverse of heart shall be far from me;
I will have nothing to do with what is evil.
Psalm 10:4 (NIV)
4 In his pride the wicked man does not seek him;
in all his thoughts there is no room for God.
Psalm 10:13 (NIV)
13 Why does the wicked man revile God?
Why does he say to himself,
“He won’t call me to account”?
Ezekiel 33:11 (NIV)
11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
Psalm 11:5 (NIV)
5 The Lord examines the righteous,
but the wicked, those who love violence,
he hates with a passion.
Nehemiah 1:7 (NIV)
7 We have acted very wickedly toward you. We have not obeyed the commands, decrees and laws you gave your servant Moses.
Leviticus 26:21-22 (NIV)
21 “‘If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.
Romans 8:7-9 (NIV)
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
Romans 8:13 (NIV)
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
He hates the wicked—violators/haters of His Law—with a passion, yet He doesn't take pleasure in their death, thus provides a way of escape (an expression of love/care, shows them mercy, more time to repent, an atonement sacrifice, a way to put the misdeeds of the flesh to death).
But in no way does that diminish that He hates (and disagrees with, thus opposes) who they are, what is wrong in them, nor negates that He will send punishment against their wicked/lawless deeds and thoughts (once He is done waiting for them to repent, and sends earthly judgments, either through man's courts [allows those two to three witnesses to catch them in the act] or divine judgment in some other form [outside of man's courts: stirring up the sword, famine, plague, wild beasts to go attack them and the nation]), despite having sent love/mercy to them as well. If they would accept His love on His terms and conditions, then they would be on the compassionate side of His love instead of on the wrathful side when He expresses love to someone (He doesn't love everyone, though He invites everyone to be in His love).
Ergo:
John 3:16-19 (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
1 John 2:15-16 (NIV)
15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father[a] is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.
Footnotes:
a. 1 John 2:15 Or world, the Father’s love
He cares about the world, but rejects (disagrees with and hates on) their ways, what they lust after, their way of thinking, and wants to save them from their flesh, the deceitful desires of said flesh, and from the world / its ways.
Romans 12:1-2 (NIV)
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
James 1:27 (NIV)
27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
1 Thessalonians 4:3-7 (NIV)
3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control your own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister.[b] The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Or learn to live with your own wife; or learn to acquire a wife
b. 1 Thessalonians 4:6 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a believer, whether man or woman, as part of God’s family.
Hebrews 13:4 (NIV)
4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
1 Corinthians 7:8-9 (NIV)
8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 7:8 Or widowers
Ephesians 4:22-24 (NIV)
22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
John 3:7 (NIV)
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[a] must be born again.’
Footnotes:
a. John 3:7 The Greek is plural.
God hates the worldly / sinful way that we're born (with its gluttony, sexual immorality, malice, cowardice, filthy speaking, greed, etc), so we must be born-again.
Furthermore, what God calls abomination, He hates. It's what the term literally means:
abomination
[uh-bom-uh-ney-shuh n]
noun
1. anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.
2. intense aversion or loathing; detestation:
He regarded lying with abomination.
3.a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.:
source: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/abomination
He hates it when humans are [insert sinful condition, habit, thought here] like everything else He calls abomination. And He hates the created thing who is doing/thinking/being it, as something to be enjoyed. God does too hate what (and whom) He disagrees with and hates what / whom disagrees with Him—even if He wants to save them from their sins (which is an expression of care).
Isaiah 61:8 (NIV)
8 “For I, the Lord, love justice;
I hate robbery and wrongdoing.
In my faithfulness I will reward my people
and make an everlasting covenant with them.
Psalm 11:5 (NIV)
5 The Lord examines the righteous,
but the wicked, those who love violence,
he hates with a passion.
Proverbs 15:26 (NIV)
26 The Lord detests the thoughts of the wicked,
but gracious words are pure in his sight.
Zechariah 8:16-17 (NIV)
16 These are the things you are to do: Speak the truth to each other, and render true and sound judgment in your courts; 17 do not plot evil against each other, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this,” declares the Lord.
Deuteronomy 25:15-16 (NIV)
15 You must have accurate and honest weights and measures, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. 16 For the Lord your God detests anyone who does these things, anyone who deals dishonestly.
Deuteronomy 22:5 (NIV)
5 A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.
Leviticus 18:22 (NIV)
22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
James 4:4 (NIV)
4 You adulterous people,[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
Footnotes:
a. James 4:4 An allusion to covenant unfaithfulness; see Hosea 3:1.
Disagree with God in your thoughts, you won't submit to what He says and to His definitions of right and wrong, then you're hating on God in your heart, you're not His friend—you're not loving Him, but loving sin (law-breaking), being friends with sin and the sinful world, not being friends with God.
John 15:14 (NIV)
14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
Proverbs 3:32 (NIV)
32 For the Lord detests the perverse
but takes the upright into his confidence.
John 14:15 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands.
Psalm 66:18 (NIV)
18 If I had cherished sin in my heart,
the Lord would not have listened;
1 John 3:4 (NIV)
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
Proverbs 11:20 (NIV)
20 The Lord detests those whose hearts are perverse,
but he delights in those whose ways are blameless.
Psalm 40:8 (NIV)
8 I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart.”
The world gets it. Disagreement with a certain individual's moral standards is an act of hostility for what said individual stands for / thinks, and thus an act of hostility against who that individual is as a person. A person's words and thoughts is no different than the person themselves. Just like the Word is with God and is God at the same time.
The world hates / disagrees with God and the Word of God, one and the same. They'll hate on us too for standing up for God/the Word of God (written, or in the flesh) and what He clearly expresses strong like or dislike for (according to every word that comes out of His mouth).
John 15:18-19 (NIV)
18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
1 Peter 4:3-4 (NIV)
3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.
1 John 3:13 (NIV)
13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters,[a] if the world hates you.
Footnotes:
a. 1 John 3:13 The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in verse 16.
They hate God because they love their evil deeds. God hates them for their sin/for loving their evil deeds, even if He does acts of favor to save them from His wrath/hate (thus at the same time showing expressions of love for His enemy, because He doesn't want them to perish but repent).
John 3:36 (NIV)
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
They're refusing to be born-again in Christ, thus choosing to stay enslaved to the very behaviors and carnal desires that He hates (and which He offered liberty from in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in them and empower them, if they heed His voice, not to succumb to the desires that are sinful)—and which He hates because they lead us to violate His very good design, thus cause His creation harm/malfunction. But hating on evil is still hate nonetheless. We shouldn't be running from the label "hate". The world is just ignorantly thinking that there's only one kind of hating, that they're all the same, and that they themselves are not hating. They might as well label everyone a hate group—but then they would have to agree with the Word of God.
Proverbs 29:27 (NIV)
27 The righteous detest the dishonest;
the wicked detest the upright.
The world (along with so-called "believers" who don't adhere to what is written, thus "believers" who are friends with the world, not with God) detest / hate on us for submitting to the whole Word of God. We detest / hate on the world (like God does) for not submitting to YHWH's Word, even if we express concern for them and do acts of care to meet their needs and protect them. We're not "friends" by Biblical terminology, not really, if they don't repent.
If we're even the slightest bit Herodian (submitting to a gentile / pagan / worldly government's definition of things and way of categorizing, as our standard of truth), then we'll deviate from the Word of God. Hating on wickedness and on the wicked is Godly. On the other hand, hating on people for the color of their skin is not supported by YHWH's Law (being "black"/ having more melanin in your skin is not a sin [is not a transgression of YHWH's Law], just like being "white" / having less melanin in your skin is not a sin [not a transgression of YHWH's Law] either).
Until people submit to everything the Law has to say, they won't have discernment to realize how we're different, nor how EVERYONE who disagrees with ANYONE is also a hater/enemy/opposition to someone. To whose standards are we going to submit to in order to say one flavor of hate is okay while another is not?
The secular world is labeling what the righteous do (righteous according to YHWH's standards) as hate (because it is hate: we are hating on their wickedness). But they in turn are hating on us too (for our righteousness). Everyone's a hater. Stop trying to run away from the word "hate". The Bible calls us haters just as much as them; it's just a matter of what we hate. Do we agree with what God hates or not? Some people hate on things God does not want us hating on; we obviously don't agree with them. But the world, with their lack of discernment, can't tell the difference, and lumps us all together, because they reject wisdom / the Law of God / the Word of God—the only thing and the only One who helps their hearts/minds/inner-beings see.
Hebrews 4:12 (NIV)
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
2 Corinthians 3:14 (NIV)
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
Isaiah 6:10 (NIV)
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.[a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
Footnotes:
a. Isaiah 6:10 Hebrew; Septuagint ‘You will be ever hearing, but never understanding; / you will be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ / 10 This people’s heart has become calloused; / they hardly hear with their ears, / and they have closed their eyes
Lamentations 3:65 (NIV)
65 Put a veil over their hearts,
and may your curse be on them!
Ephesians 1:18 (NIV)
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,
Proverbs 1:23 (NIV)
23 Repent at my rebuke!
Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
I will make known to you my teachings.
Luke 24:45 (NIV)
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:27 am
Saddened but not surprised. Groups like this are all too common nowadays.
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:13 am
Am I the only one who sees no connection between the salem witch trials and "hate" speech?
The salem witch trials were a series of hearings and prosecutions of people accused of witchcraft.
Hate speech is speech which attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, disability, or gender.
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Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:15 pm
Scarlet Puppet Am I the only one who sees no connection between the salem witch trials and "hate" speech? The salem witch trials were a series of hearings and prosecutions of people accused of witchcraft. Hate speech is speech which attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, disability, or gender.
But, as I went on to clarify, really what the author of the article is describing is that the Biblically-obedient Christians do not do unlawful, physical violence against homosexuals in day-to-day living, in their treatment of homosexuals in civil life, because the closest thing to physical violence would be stoning to death/capital punishment, which is sentencing to death deliberated by the courts and only arrived at by the testimony of two to three truthful witnesses (thus that can withstand a cross examination, sufficient proof) who caught them in the act, live—no unjust/unlawful/uncaring/merciless acts of violence would be done against them in civil life, nor would false or unjust/insufficient accusations made against them be accepted in court).
side note: "stoning to death" is not what Biblically is called "violence" (the latter of which is lawless force); capital punishment is justice, lawful force and law enforcement, punishing the wicked and protecting the blameless as an act of love/care, and one that guards the health of the community/creation on earth, by protecting the blameless from the guilty and nipping degenerate behavior in the bud after God had extended sufficient mercy to the guilty person/people in question. /end side note
Ergo, the common link between, (A) "the world's accusations of hate speech made against Christians" and (B) "the Salem Witch Trials" (where lawless Christians unjustly burned or drowned others to death for witchcraft despite having no witnesses/proof of their witchcraft) is "unjust accusations". He was saying that the world unjustly accuses us of something, similar to how, during the Salem Witch Trials, people were unjustly accused of being a witch (whether actually guilty or not, but still unjust) because two to three truthful witnesses didn't see them engage in witchcraft (thus no proof), but the accusation/allegation itself became the proof. But when people started acknowledging / stopped ignoring all the Biblical criteria necessary to condemn to death, those false accusations stopped—and so did the lawless (unjust) condemnations.
As true as that is (that "false condemnations stop once we start acknowledging all the criteria of the Law", thus don't ignore some criteria like the Pharisees use to), the article, however, is incorrect on its definitions of "hate" like I explained above. We are hating on their sin and on them in the way that God does, and in the same way that they hate on God and hate on righteousness. Disagreement, disapproval. The hate is mutual: the righteous hate the wicked, and in turn the ungodly hate the godly. There are no unjust / false accusations being lifted up against Christians for hating on what God hates (e.g. homosexuality and homosexuals, as per Biblical terminology) even though He and we don't take pleasure in seeing their demise, but for them to repent and live. And because of that, we don't tolerate lawless acts of violence done against them. Clearly, if all the Lawful criteria isn't met, then God still wants to show them mercy, give them a chance to repent. It would be unjust to stone them to death because not all the lawful conditions are met (by the situation/case) that allow for stoning to death.
TL;DR — quite simply, the common link is "false accusation" or "insufficient witness / insufficient proof—and despite that seeking to condemn anyway" (whether it's the world accusing us, or a fellow Christian, but a lawless one, accusing a fellow Christian). However, it's not an equivalent comparison because we actually do hate as the world accuses us of hating (for disagreeing), as the Bible supports us of doing, and accuses them of doing the same, the only difference is they are disagreeing/hating on God and on the righteous.
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Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:26 pm
cristobela Scarlet Puppet Am I the only one who sees no connection between the salem witch trials and "hate" speech? The salem witch trials were a series of hearings and prosecutions of people accused of witchcraft. Hate speech is speech which attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, disability, or gender.
But, as I went on to clarify, really what the author of the article is describing is that the Biblically-obedient Christians do not do unlawful, physical violence against homosexuals in day-to-day living, in their treatment of homosexuals in civil life, because the closest thing to physical violence would be stoning to death/capital punishment, which is sentencing to death deliberated by the courts and only arrived at by the testimony of two to three truthful witnesses (thus that can withstand a cross examination, sufficient proof) who caught them in the act, live—no unjust/unlawful/uncaring/merciless acts of violence would be done against them in civil life, nor would false or unjust/insufficient accusations made against them be accepted in court).
side note: "stoning to death" is not what Biblically is called "violence" (the latter of which is lawless force); capital punishment is justice, lawful force and law enforcement, punishing the wicked and protecting the blameless as an act of love/care, and one that guards the health of the community/creation on earth, by protecting the blameless from the guilty and nipping degenerate behavior in the bud after God had extended sufficient mercy to the guilty person/people in question. /end side note
Ergo, the common link between, (A) "the world's accusations of hate speech made against Christians" and (B) "the Salem Witch Trials" (where lawless Christians unjustly burned or drowned others to death for witchcraft despite having no witnesses/proof of their witchcraft) is "unjust accusations". He was saying that the world unjustly accuses us of something, similar to how, during the Salem Witch Trials, people were unjustly accused of being a witch (whether actually guilty or not, but still unjust) because two to three truthful witnesses didn't see them engage in witchcraft (thus no proof), but the accusation/allegation itself became the proof. But when people started acknowledging / stopped ignoring all the Biblical criteria necessary to condemn to death, those false accusations stopped—and so did the lawless (unjust) condemnations.
As true as that is (that "false condemnations stop once we start acknowledging all the criteria of the Law", thus don't ignore some criteria like the Pharisees use to), the article, however, is incorrect on its definitions of "hate" like I explained above. We are hating on their sin and on them in the way that God does, and in the same way that they hate on God and hate on righteousness. Disagreement, disapproval. The hate is mutual: the righteous hate the wicked, and in turn the ungodly hate the godly. There are no unjust / false accusations being lifted up against Christians for hating on what God hates (e.g. homosexuality and homosexuals, as per Biblical terminology) even though He and we don't take pleasure in seeing their demise, but for them to repent and live. And because of that, we don't tolerate lawless acts of violence done against them. Clearly, if all the Lawful criteria isn't met, then God still wants to show them mercy, give them a chance to repent. It would be unjust to stone them to death because not all the lawful conditions are met (by the situation/case) that allow for stoning to death.
TL;DR — quite simply, the common link is "false accusation" or "insufficient witness / insufficient proof—and despite that seeking to condemn anyway" (whether it's the world accusing us, or a fellow Christian, but a lawless one, accusing a fellow Christian). However, it's not an equivalent comparison because we actually do hate as the world accuses us of hating (for disagreeing), as the Bible supports us of doing, and accuses them of doing the same, the only difference is they are disagreeing/hating on God and on the righteous. I understand where you are coming from. And yes, I understood that you are hating what god himself hates (not the actual person but the sin committed). I also agree the article is misleading as to what hate speech actually is. But I don't think it right to compare hate speech to something that happened out of fear and not hate. Early christians were terrified out of their minds, not hate, which is why they turned on one another. In those times it was pure horror to even fathom someone following another way of life instead of god. Not a very good connection to make between the two is all I was trying to say.
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:28 pm
edited: to more accurately say "in Spirit and in Truth"* Scarlet Puppet I understand where you are coming from. And yes, I understood that you are hating what god himself hates (not the actual person but the sin committed).
There's a lot that happens in Christian “culture”—thought, said, and done—that denies what is written and we must rid ourselves of it, once we realize it, if we truly want to honor what God is saying. There's no such thing as God hating the person, but then “we” just hating the sin not the person. If God says He hates the person, then so do we. We don't accept who they are. We disapprove of both what they commit on certain occasions (sin), but also don't approve of who they are as a person (deviated from God's image since the womb).
He hates the sin and the sinner (so, not only does He hate the sin committed, but the person as well, as He said in those verses), thus His wrath is upon them, even if, simultaneously, He also expresses acts of care towards them to get them out of His wrath, because His wrath is on them for being a certain way, not just consciously committing sins.
So, problem: the traditional / Christian-cultural way of referring to God's hatred of sinners (as “hate the sin, love the sinner; love the person, hate the sin”) as if we can separate “committed sins” from who they are as a person, is unBiblical. It denies what the Father literally says about how He feels about the person who committed the sin (not just the sin itself).
(...and this denying of God's Words, how He expresses Himself, is what the Pharisees would do and what Jesus rebuked).
Matthew 15:3-9 (NIV)
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16
b. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 21:17; Lev. 20:9
c. Matthew 15:9 Isaiah 29:13
Mainstream Christianity says: love the sinner, hate the sin; hate the sin committed, not the person who committed it.
But God says, like the aforementioned passages I showed in earlier replies, I hate the sin and the sinner. I hate the sin committed and the person who committed the sin.
Their/our seemingly God-honoring way of “being true” to what is written actually denied what He said and keeps them from saying and doing what He actually wanted them to say and do, and how He wanted them to say and do it. Man's faulty/deviant paraphrase is the problem. I, for one, don't want to do that. (Hence this reply, to be very clear about what I meant to say, because I don't want to deny His words).
The world is just growing increasingly hostile to sound doctrine. That doesn't mean we change the message though. So, God does hate both the sin and the sinner, the sin being committed and the person who committed it, even if He doesn't delight in their demise, and offers them a way out of His hate/wrath.
Thus why we tell that person to take advantage of His grace/acts of favor/love, which is allowing them to hear the truth, to repent from their wicked ways, and would empower them to stay away from sin and change their nature, a nature which He hates, so that they can enter into His love and/or stay in His love—and the church's love too (those who submit to Him as their head, follow what He says; He is the command center of the body, not surprisingly they follow His Commands as it is written). Continue acting like the world, in unrepentant sin, then be treated like the world, who is not in God's love (though invited into it), no close fellowship. They are invited into His love and our love if they would repent (and maintain an attitude that stays repentant against sin), and instead be in Christ's/YHWH-incarnate's—and thus YHWH's—nature/Way of being.
Jude 1:21 (NIV)
21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
John 15:10 (NIV)
10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
Romans 8:13 (NIV)
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Colossians 3:5-10 (NIV)
5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[a] 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
Footnotes:
a. Colossians 3:6 Some early manuscripts coming on those who are disobedient
Romans 2:5 (NIV)
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
Even if we're in Christ—whether the church in the city of Colossae [Colossians 3:6] or the church in the city of Rome [Romans 2:5]—or are totally lost in the world, wrath will be poured out on us if we stay in unrepentant sin, and stay in our old, earthly nature, not putting on Christ's nature.
And not just God's wrath, so will the church's wrath (so to speak, as a picture of God's), be aroused after putting up with one's unrepentant sin for so long, after multiple corrections, and obstinate rejection of change:
Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b]go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c]17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 18:15 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verses 21 and 35.
b. Matthew 18:15 Some manuscripts sins against you
c. Matthew 18:16 Deut. 19:15
As it relates to unbelievers not in God's love, emphasis on the second half of verse 17: how do we treat pagans? Even if we visit with them to get them to repent from their sinful ways, even if we do acts of favor for them, we don't fellowship with them; there is no close bond. They're not in our intimate love, unless they repent (and stay repentant), and walk in His Commands, staying in His love. Otherwise, this person is not in God's love and thus has no fellowship with us (His body of which He is the Head; we are one body with the Head. There's no such thing as not being in the Head's love but being in His body's love; and being in the Head's love automatically makes you be in the body's love—Christ being the Head, remain in His love to remain in His body's love). So if they're not in His love, walking in His Commands, then they're out there being like the world (because they are the world). There's no neutral ground; you're either sincerely in YHWH/Christ or you're in the world, walking like YHWH or walking like the world.
And once in the church/a part of the church, and thus a fellow believer, the close bond / fellowship can be broken if they fall into sin and won't turn away from their sins after repeated and greater attempts to get them to turn away (because at that point, it's not that they are inattentively in a daze, unaware that they're straying away from the Word of God, but outright rejecting God's Word). So, if we, as a part of the church/the body of Christ, stay obstinately in sin despite knowing better, despite receiving the truth to correct it beyond a shadow of a doubt, but still refuse to drop the sin, then at that point we're no different than the world. So we'll be treated like, and regarded as, the world in our “relating” with the body of Christ (those who actually walk submitted to Him and His Way). We didn't stay in His church's love because we didn't stay in God's love, but refused His Commands, we stubbornly chose to stay in unrepentant sin (God says to stay in His love by keeping His Commands; we're His friends if we keep His Commands). And if we're not in His love, then we're in His hate subject to His wrath (for staying unrepentant in sin, not walking in His Commands). The person is in His hate. He hates the person just as much as the sin they commit. Thus why His wrath is threatening to unleash on them, even as the church in Colossae or Rome.
So, in summary, just to be very clear: God hates both the sin and the sinner; the sin committed and the person who committed it, and He (and we, those who stepped out of His hate) offer them a way out of His hate as well. They/we don't enter into His love (nor the church's love/His body's love) unless we repent from sin and stay repentant against sin.Scarlet Puppet I also agree the article is misleading as to what hate speech actually is.
So, as far as what I'm saying about the article, I'm saying that both, the believer who wrote the article and the world, are not submitting to the Bible's definition of hate speech, nor acknowledging His approval of hate speech when it agrees with God/YHWH's Word. (Not to mention, that the Bible accuses every single person of using a certain kind of hate speech too, wicked and righteous alike, if they oppose/disagree with anyone on anything—be it righteous person hating the wicked or the wicked hating the righteous; or the righteous hating on wickedness or the wicked hating on righteousness.) If that is what you mean, when you say, “I also agree the article is misleading as to what hate speech actually is”, then yes we're in agreement.
But my point went beyond that: that they both (believer and secular world alike) are not submitting to the Bible's definitions of hate speech, nor allowing His approval of certain kinds of hate speech while He condemns others. And He speaks hatefully against certain ways of being because wicked ways do no one any good, so we speak against wicked people and wickedness; wicked people and wickedness do not preserve proper interaction with creation, thus hurt the wicked person just as much as those who live with the wicked person and/or who are in the wicked person's sphere of influence e.g. being affected by their gluttony, greed, gossip, false witness, sexual immorality, idolatry, thefts, murders/unlawful killing [unlawful according to God's Law], etc, and the divine judgment from God that will unleash against them if they stay in it—because such wickedness and wicked people don't guard their well-being to the fullest extent, as God sees from His omniscient perspective, seeing the end from the beginning, and the effects that sinfulness has across thousands of generations. Ergo we speak against wickedness and wicked individuals / demonstrate hate speech against wickedness and wicked individuals, to save them from themselves and from God).Scarlet Puppet But I don't think it right to compare hate speech to something that happened out of fear and not hate. Early christians were terrified out of their minds, not hate, which is why they turned on one another. In those times it was pure horror to even fathom someone following another way of life instead of god. Not a very good connection to make between the two is all I was trying to say.
Even when we do something to “honor” God, if it dishonors what He said, then we're not honoring Him at all; we are actually walking in hate (the hate that God condemns because it is fleshly). Those lawless Christians during the Salem witch trials, actually were acting out of hate in God's eyes for ignoring the Law / how He wanted justice rendered; thus, why Jesus said that all the Law of God is essentially expressions of love towards God and towards man (even the execution of the unrepentant sinners after God has stopped waiting on them to repent and allowed two to three witnesses to catch them in the act—that is an act of love too, for those who are in His love, for those who are blameless, to be kept safe from the unrepentant sinners, and as mercy / love to those who are in His hate, by giving them chances to repent, turn away from their sin and not get stoned to death, if two to three witnesses have not actually caught them in their sin).
Matthew 22:36-40 (NIV)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 22:37 Deut. 6:5
b. Matthew 22:39 Lev. 19:18
Ergo, the Law of YHWH is true love.
Ignore His Law, which is true love, then you express true hate—true hatred of God and true hatred of man.
Why am I injecting the word “true” into this? Because, like Scripture says, the righteous hate the wicked, and the wicked hate the righteous; they both hate, but only one of them is actually committing hate that God hates, the hatred that comes out of the flesh, thus that does not submit to God's Law/justice.
Romans 8:7 (NIV)
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
Galatians 5:19-21 (NIV)
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
By extension then: if you break the Law (sin), committing lawless forms of hatred, then what you're truly expressing love for is, not for God, but love for wickedness, love of fleshly human nature, love of deceitful human desires/emotions in place of loving God and His Word, in place of true justice, holiness, and mercy, in of place doing things in the Way He tells you to do things because your flesh wants to do something else contrary to His Way (the safe, beneficial Way, when all details are heeded).
He does not honor cowardice nor hysteria (which God outlaws since it is incompatible with the Commands that call for sober-minded judgment in accordance to what is written, every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, which leads to fairness). Those Christians during the Salem witch trials, by definition, were acting out of fleshly hate that the Word of God condemns, not true love, because they ignored details of the Law of YHWH / violated the Law when it came to capital punishment (like the Pharisees would do, bringing an adulteress to be stoned [John 8:1-11], but where is the adulterer? What lawlessness is this? They're cherry-picking, and ignoring both the fair and merciful aspects of the Law. The Law requires that you bring both, the adulterer and the adulteress, and that there actually be two to three truthful witnesses who caught them in the act, not: [a] fellow participants, nor [b] people who heard rumors but didn't actually see it, even if it's true; there needs to be sufficient and truthful witnesses who caught them in the act with their own eyes—we actually saw you—not false witnesses, nor people who participated with the accused because...)
Leviticus 20:10 (NIV)
10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.
Deuteronomy 19:15 (NIV)
15 One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
And if they're lying about what they saw / didn't actually see anything:
Deuteronomy 19:16-21 (NIV)
16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse someone of a crime, 17 the two people involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the Lord before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against a fellow Israelite, 19 then do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party. You must purge the evil from among you. 20 The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. 21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Judges cannot / are not to tolerate false witnesses (which, by definition, means the person didn't actually see what they allege) and zero tolerance of insufficient witnesses. And participants are not witnesses, but the ones at risk of being condemned to death. The Pharisees who brought the adulteress were one of those two: either not actual witnesses (but false witnesses, a sin deserving of death as well), or were fellow participants of the act (the adulterers to her adulteress, also deserving of death), but wanting to get the woman (the evidence of their sin) eliminated (similar to the hypocrisy of Judah with Tamar in Genesis 38). One of the two based on all the evidence provided in John 8 about the situation. Either way, they would be condemned by the Law for whatever they were unlawfully trying to do to this woman: false witnessing about seeing her commit adultery, or being the adulterer(s) who had sexual relations with the adulteress. Both merit death. The Pharisees are the haters of God and man (violating the Law) for ignoring what it says, and fishing for their own death by trying to get her condemned.
We—who walk in Love—are to live by every word that comes out of the mouth of God, not by fleshly emotions; we're to carry out justice correctly, by the Word of God, and if the Word of God does not allow us, then we do not carry out justice at all, because the circumstances of the case do not lawfully allow us, and so we side with mercy, giving them a chance to repent.
Submitting to the fear of man over the fear of God makes one a coward, committing acts of true hatred / failing to protect from acts of true hatred (the kind / flavor of hatred that God detests thus outlawed in His Law because He sees the injustice and the long-term harm this flavor of hatred does to His creation—physically, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually), and God does not honor said cowardice and hysteria—whether demonstrated by religious Pharisee or Gentile alike.
Proverbs 29:25 (NIV)
25 Fear of man will prove to be a snare,
but whoever trusts in the Lord is kept safe.
Revelation 21:8 (NIV)
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Galatians 5:16 (NIV)
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Romans 8:7-9 (NIV)
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
Ezekiel 36:27 (NIV)
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Those Christians who unlawfully (unlawful according to YHWH's Law) condemned others for witchcraft, are just as inexcusable as (if not worse than) the lawless world who rejects the Father's Way to follow their own fleshly ways and lawless suspicions. They're acting identically in God's eyes—both the Salem witch trial Christians who were lawless and the modern, secular culture, who is also lawless. No difference in God's eyes, even if one one of them has this shallow association with God, in Name only, but their actions do not align with what is written. I question whether we should consider them brothers and sisters in the faith (it's hard to tell).
Matthew 12:50 (NIV)
50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
2 Kings 17:13 (NIV)
13 The Lord warned Israel and Judah through all his prophets and seers: “Turn from your evil ways. Observe my commands and decrees, in accordance with the entire Law that I commanded your ancestors to obey and that I delivered to you through my servants the prophets.”
Psalm 40:8 (NIV)
8 I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart.”
1 Timothy 1:8 (NIV)
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
Romans 2:7-11 (NIV)
7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil:first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
Only God knows how many of them were acting out of unawareness of what is written, and how many were actually rejecting what is written, like the Pharisees, straying, cherry-picking, without acknowledging the inherent mercy written in the Law of God, and outright rejecting it because they don't care about God and about their neighbor, according to all that He has to say, just their own self-imposed ways of doing religion, what their pastor paraphrased for them, not necessarily what's in accord with YHWH's Word. And only God knows how many thought they were sincerely guarding God's Law (not that sincerity in ignorance excuses it; there is still rebuke/punishment for what's done in ignorance)...
Luke 12:47-48 (NIV)
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
...and how many purposely are twisting the Law for some fleshly reason, even if they said it was for God with their lips, but are purposefully ignoring certain details because their flesh doesn't like those parts, and in truth aren't really honoring what God said.
Either way, we have no basis to pity one over the other. They're both reacting out of fear of man and/or fear of death, in contrast to the fear of God / fear of Jesus which would make them walk in adherence to what the Father spoke / what is written. Rejecting God's standards of justice—no matter who does it (Pharisee, Christian, atheist Buddhist, American, Israelite, male, female, slave, free, etc, etc, insert any label here)—is the same in God's eyes because it's the same motive no matter what: they prized something else as more important and true than what He said, as it is written. God views them equally transgressing for violating what's right. Rejecting justice and mercy, as it is written, is not honorable to God, even if we're religious and doing it in His Name, following some man's teachings, thinking we're pleasing Him, but we're not because it violates the Commands, in Spirit and in Truth.
The only reason I would venture to say that it's not an equal or fair comparison is that there are plenty of witnesses in the world who see us speaking / writing hate against wicked behavior and wicked people, in accord with YHWH's mind/word. So the world, who opposes what YHWH says, is actually being more fair than the lawless Christians at the Salem witch trials who condemned without sufficient witnesses. Unless the world is coming up with allegations against a particular individual, which the particular individual doesn't actually say/do, or is accusing/alleging despite not personally witnessing things that the believer allegedly said/did, in which case, they're back to being the same. The connection is fair if we base it on YHWH's Law.
Lawlessness is the hatefulness of the flesh that God does not approve (God is love and so are His righteous standards; God's Law is love. Violate it [including the bit of needing two to three witnesses to condemn to death] and you're walking in hate for violating/ignoring/rejecting this fairness and mercy [love]). Being lawful, according to YHWH's Law, is the love that God does approve of (but the world calls it hate).
Again, whose standards are we submitting to in order to define a certain person's behavior as truly “hateful”? And the wrong kind of hateful? And identify who is walking in hate, really and truly? Because according to God's Law, these Christians at the Salem witch trials, who condemned without two to three truthful witnesses, acted out of hate in a way that He does not accept. And whatever “fear” they may have had, if it led them into lawlessness, it is not a fear that Scripture approves of. The fear of God does not make us lawless. “But I did it for you God/Jesus”, won't be an excuse if it violates what He said.
Deuteronomy 6:24 (NIV)
24 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today.
Deuteronomy 31:12 (NIV)
12 Assemble the people—men, women and children, and the foreigners residing in your towns—so they can listen and learn to fear the Lord your God and follow carefully all the words of this law.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 (NIV)
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Matthew 23:1-3 (NIV)
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Jesus clearly wants us obeying what is read from Moses' seat (thus the bit about not stoning to death without two to three truthful witnesses in court)—regardless of how we feel. This is a command from Jesus. Our emotions will not excuse any lawlessness on our part—even if we misguidedly say we're doing it for God; like the Pharisees not keeping the fifth commandment and saying, "but it was for you God". Jesus rebuked that. He's really big on doing things "as it is written" regardless of how we feel, because God's Way is how we ensure the well-being of more than just ourselves, and keep things fair and merciful.
Luke 22:42 (NIV)
42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
Thus Satan's temptation, and Jesus replying all three times with three examples of "it is written". And when Peter tried to dissuade Jesus, based on human emotions, from doing the Father's will: Jesus compared Peter to Satan there too (rebellion against the Father's will, what is written, is not acceptable just because the circumstances are scary):
Mark 8:31-33 (NIV)
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Merely human concerns like, "this is scary, painful, uncomfortable, not pleasurable. Let it not be!" Well, if we respect what is written, we're going to do what is written, respect what the Father said, trusting that it will result in what's best, in fairness and mercy, regardless of how we feel. Any injustice/lawlessness we do will be punished. So if we're fearing the right One, then we're not going to be stoning people to death without all the lawful criteria being met.
2 Chronicles 19:6-7 (NIV)
6 He told them, “Consider carefully what you do, because you are not judging for mere mortals but for the Lord, who is with you whenever you give a verdict. 7 Now let the fear of the Lord be on you. Judge carefully, for with the Lord our God there is no injustice or partiality or bribery.”
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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:56 pm
cristobela edited: to more accurately say "in Spirit and in Truth"* Scarlet Puppet I understand where you are coming from. And yes, I understood that you are hating what god himself hates (not the actual person but the sin committed).
There's a lot that happens in Christian “culture”—thought, said, and done—that denies what is written and we must rid ourselves of it, once we realize it, if we truly want to honor what God is saying. There's no such thing as God hating the person, but then “we” just hating the sin not the person. If God says He hates the person, then so do we. We don't accept who they are. We disapprove of both what they commit on certain occasions (sin), but also don't approve of who they are as a person (deviated from God's image since the womb).
He hates the sin and the sinner (so, not only does He hate the sin committed, but the person as well, as He said in those verses), thus His wrath is upon them, even if, simultaneously, He also expresses acts of care towards them to get them out of His wrath, because His wrath is on them for being a certain way, not just consciously committing sins.
So, problem: the traditional / Christian-cultural way of referring to God's hatred of sinners (as “hate the sin, love the sinner; love the person, hate the sin”) as if we can separate “committed sins” from who they are as a person, is unBiblical. It denies what the Father literally says about how He feels about the person who committed the sin (not just the sin itself).
(...and this denying of God's Words, how He expresses Himself, is what the Pharisees would do and what Jesus rebuked).
Matthew 15:3-9 (NIV)
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16
b. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 21:17; Lev. 20:9
c. Matthew 15:9 Isaiah 29:13
Mainstream Christianity says: love the sinner, hate the sin; hate the sin committed, not the person who committed it.
But God says, like the aforementioned passages I showed in earlier replies, I hate the sin and the sinner. I hate the sin committed and the person who committed the sin.
Their/our seemingly God-honoring way of “being true” to what is written actually denied what He said and keeps them from saying and doing what He actually wanted them to say and do, and how He wanted them to say and do it. Man's faulty/deviant paraphrase is the problem. I, for one, don't want to do that. (Hence this reply, to be very clear about what I meant to say, because I don't want to deny His words).
The world is just growing increasingly hostile to sound doctrine. That doesn't mean we change the message though. So, God does hate both the sin and the sinner, the sin being committed and the person who committed it, even if He doesn't delight in their demise, and offers them a way out of His hate/wrath.
Thus why we tell that person to take advantage of His grace/acts of favor/love, which is allowing them to hear the truth, to repent from their wicked ways, and would empower them to stay away from sin and change their nature, a nature which He hates, so that they can enter into His love and/or stay in His love—and the church's love too (those who submit to Him as their head, follow what He says; He is the command center of the body, not surprisingly they follow His Commands as it is written). Continue acting like the world, in unrepentant sin, then be treated like the world, who is not in God's love (though invited into it), no close fellowship. They are invited into His love and our love if they would repent (and maintain an attitude that stays repentant against sin), and instead be in Christ's/YHWH-incarnate's—and thus YHWH's—nature/Way of being.
Jude 1:21 (NIV)
21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
John 15:10 (NIV)
10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
Romans 8:13 (NIV)
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Colossians 3:5-10 (NIV)
5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[a] 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
Footnotes:
a. Colossians 3:6 Some early manuscripts coming on those who are disobedient
Romans 2:5 (NIV)
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
Even if we're in Christ—whether the church in the city of Colossae [Colossians 3:6] or the church in the city of Rome [Romans 2:5]—or are totally lost in the world, wrath will be poured out on us if we stay in unrepentant sin, and stay in our old, earthly nature, not putting on Christ's nature.
And not just God's wrath, so will the church's wrath (so to speak, as a picture of God's), be aroused after putting up with one's unrepentant sin for so long, after multiple corrections, and obstinate rejection of change:
Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b]go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c]17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 18:15 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verses 21 and 35.
b. Matthew 18:15 Some manuscripts sins against you
c. Matthew 18:16 Deut. 19:15
As it relates to unbelievers not in God's love, emphasis on the second half of verse 17: how do we treat pagans? Even if we visit with them to get them to repent from their sinful ways, even if we do acts of favor for them, we don't fellowship with them; there is no close bond. They're not in our intimate love, unless they repent (and stay repentant), and walk in His Commands, staying in His love. Otherwise, this person is not in God's love and thus has no fellowship with us (His body of which He is the Head; we are one body with the Head. There's no such thing as not being in the Head's love but being in His body's love; and being in the Head's love automatically makes you be in the body's love—Christ being the Head, remain in His love to remain in His body's love). So if they're not in His love, walking in His Commands, then they're out there being like the world (because they are the world). There's no neutral ground; you're either sincerely in YHWH/Christ or you're in the world, walking like YHWH or walking like the world.
And once in the church/a part of the church, and thus a fellow believer, the close bond / fellowship can be broken if they fall into sin and won't turn away from their sins after repeated and greater attempts to get them to turn away (because at that point, it's not that they are inattentively in a daze, unaware that they're straying away from the Word of God, but outright rejecting God's Word). So, if we, as a part of the church/the body of Christ, stay obstinately in sin despite knowing better, despite receiving the truth to correct it beyond a shadow of a doubt, but still refuse to drop the sin, then at that point we're no different than the world. So we'll be treated like, and regarded as, the world in our “relating” with the body of Christ (those who actually walk submitted to Him and His Way). We didn't stay in His church's love because we didn't stay in God's love, but refused His Commands, we stubbornly chose to stay in unrepentant sin (God says to stay in His love by keeping His Commands; we're His friends if we keep His Commands). And if we're not in His love, then we're in His hate subject to His wrath (for staying unrepentant in sin, not walking in His Commands). The person is in His hate. He hates the person just as much as the sin they commit. Thus why His wrath is threatening to unleash on them, even as the church in Colossae or Rome.
So, in summary, just to be very clear: God hates both the sin and the sinner; the sin committed and the person who committed it, and He (and we, those who stepped out of His hate) offer them a way out of His hate as well. They/we don't enter into His love (nor the church's love/His body's love) unless we repent from sin and stay repentant against sin.Scarlet Puppet I also agree the article is misleading as to what hate speech actually is.
So, as far as what I'm saying about the article, I'm saying that both, the believer who wrote the article and the world, are not submitting to the Bible's definition of hate speech, nor acknowledging His approval of hate speech when it agrees with God/YHWH's Word. (Not to mention, that the Bible accuses every single person of using a certain kind of hate speech too, wicked and righteous alike, if they oppose/disagree with anyone on anything—be it righteous person hating the wicked or the wicked hating the righteous; or the righteous hating on wickedness or the wicked hating on righteousness.) If that is what you mean, when you say, “I also agree the article is misleading as to what hate speech actually is”, then yes we're in agreement.
But my point went beyond that: that they both (believer and secular world alike) are not submitting to the Bible's definitions of hate speech, nor allowing His approval of certain kinds of hate speech while He condemns others. And He speaks hatefully against certain ways of being because wicked ways do no one any good, so we speak against wicked people and wickedness; wicked people and wickedness do not preserve proper interaction with creation, thus hurt the wicked person just as much as those who live with the wicked person and/or who are in the wicked person's sphere of influence e.g. being affected by their gluttony, greed, gossip, false witness, sexual immorality, idolatry, thefts, murders/unlawful killing [unlawful according to God's Law], etc, and the divine judgment from God that will unleash against them if they stay in it—because such wickedness and wicked people don't guard their well-being to the fullest extent, as God sees from His omniscient perspective, seeing the end from the beginning, and the effects that sinfulness has across thousands of generations. Ergo we speak against wickedness and wicked individuals / demonstrate hate speech against wickedness and wicked individuals, to save them from themselves and from God).Scarlet Puppet But I don't think it right to compare hate speech to something that happened out of fear and not hate. Early christians were terrified out of their minds, not hate, which is why they turned on one another. In those times it was pure horror to even fathom someone following another way of life instead of god. Not a very good connection to make between the two is all I was trying to say.
Even when we do something to “honor” God, if it dishonors what He said, then we're not honoring Him at all; we are actually walking in hate (the hate that God condemns because it is fleshly). Those lawless Christians during the Salem witch trials, actually were acting out of hate in God's eyes for ignoring the Law / how He wanted justice rendered; thus, why Jesus said that all the Law of God is essentially expressions of love towards God and towards man (even the execution of the unrepentant sinners after God has stopped waiting on them to repent and allowed two to three witnesses to catch them in the act—that is an act of love too, for those who are in His love, for those who are blameless, to be kept safe from the unrepentant sinners, and as mercy / love to those who are in His hate, by giving them chances to repent, turn away from their sin and not get stoned to death, if two to three witnesses have not actually caught them in their sin).
Matthew 22:36-40 (NIV)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 22:37 Deut. 6:5
b. Matthew 22:39 Lev. 19:18
Ergo, the Law of YHWH is true love.
Ignore His Law, which is true love, then you express true hate—true hatred of God and true hatred of man.
Why am I injecting the word “true” into this? Because, like Scripture says, the righteous hate the wicked, and the wicked hate the righteous; they both hate, but only one of them is actually committing hate that God hates, the hatred that comes out of the flesh, thus that does not submit to God's Law/justice.
Romans 8:7 (NIV)
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
Galatians 5:19-21 (NIV)
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
By extension then: if you break the Law (sin), committing lawless forms of hatred, then what you're truly expressing love for is, not for God, but love for wickedness, love of fleshly human nature, love of deceitful human desires/emotions in place of loving God and His Word, in place of true justice, holiness, and mercy, in of place doing things in the Way He tells you to do things because your flesh wants to do something else contrary to His Way (the safe, beneficial Way, when all details are heeded).
He does not honor cowardice nor hysteria (which God outlaws since it is incompatible with the Commands that call for sober-minded judgment in accordance to what is written, every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, which leads to fairness). Those Christians during the Salem witch trials, by definition, were acting out of fleshly hate that the Word of God condemns, not true love, because they ignored details of the Law of YHWH / violated the Law when it came to capital punishment (like the Pharisees would do, bringing an adulteress to be stoned [John 8:1-11], but where is the adulterer? What lawlessness is this? They're cherry-picking, and ignoring both the fair and merciful aspects of the Law. The Law requires that you bring both, the adulterer and the adulteress, and that there actually be two to three truthful witnesses who caught them in the act, not: [a] fellow participants, nor [b] people who heard rumors but didn't actually see it, even if it's true; there needs to be sufficient and truthful witnesses who caught them in the act with their own eyes—we actually saw you—not false witnesses, nor people who participated with the accused because...)
Leviticus 20:10 (NIV)
10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.
Deuteronomy 19:15 (NIV)
15 One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
And if they're lying about what they saw / didn't actually see anything:
Deuteronomy 19:16-21 (NIV)
16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse someone of a crime, 17 the two people involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the Lord before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against a fellow Israelite, 19 then do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party. You must purge the evil from among you. 20 The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. 21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Judges cannot / are not to tolerate false witnesses (which, by definition, means the person didn't actually see what they allege) and zero tolerance of insufficient witnesses. And participants are not witnesses, but the ones at risk of being condemned to death. The Pharisees who brought the adulteress were one of those two: either not actual witnesses (but false witnesses, a sin deserving of death as well), or were fellow participants of the act (the adulterers to her adulteress, also deserving of death), but wanting to get the woman (the evidence of their sin) eliminated (similar to the hypocrisy of Judah with Tamar in Genesis 38). One of the two based on all the evidence provided in John 8 about the situation. Either way, they would be condemned by the Law for whatever they were unlawfully trying to do to this woman: false witnessing about seeing her commit adultery, or being the adulterer(s) who had sexual relations with the adulteress. Both merit death. The Pharisees are the haters of God and man (violating the Law) for ignoring what it says, and fishing for their own death by trying to get her condemned.
We—who walk in Love—are to live by every word that comes out of the mouth of God, not by fleshly emotions; we're to carry out justice correctly, by the Word of God, and if the Word of God does not allow us, then we do not carry out justice at all, because the circumstances of the case do not lawfully allow us, and so we side with mercy, giving them a chance to repent.
Submitting to the fear of man over the fear of God makes one a coward, committing acts of true hatred / failing to protect from acts of true hatred (the kind / flavor of hatred that God detests thus outlawed in His Law because He sees the injustice and the long-term harm this flavor of hatred does to His creation—physically, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually), and God does not honor said cowardice and hysteria—whether demonstrated by religious Pharisee or Gentile alike.
Proverbs 29:25 (NIV)
25 Fear of man will prove to be a snare,
but whoever trusts in the Lord is kept safe.
Revelation 21:8 (NIV)
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Galatians 5:16 (NIV)
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Romans 8:7-9 (NIV)
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
Ezekiel 36:27 (NIV)
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Those Christians who unlawfully (unlawful according to YHWH's Law) condemned others for witchcraft, are just as inexcusable as (if not worse than) the lawless world who rejects the Father's Way to follow their own fleshly ways and lawless suspicions. They're acting identically in God's eyes—both the Salem witch trial Christians who were lawless and the modern, secular culture, who is also lawless. No difference in God's eyes, even if one one of them has this shallow association with God, in Name only, but their actions do not align with what is written. I question whether we should consider them brothers and sisters in the faith (it's hard to tell).
Matthew 12:50 (NIV)
50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
2 Kings 17:13 (NIV)
13 The Lord warned Israel and Judah through all his prophets and seers: “Turn from your evil ways. Observe my commands and decrees, in accordance with the entire Law that I commanded your ancestors to obey and that I delivered to you through my servants the prophets.”
Psalm 40:8 (NIV)
8 I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart.”
1 Timothy 1:8 (NIV)
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
Romans 2:7-11 (NIV)
7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil:first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
Only God knows how many of them were acting out of unawareness of what is written, and how many were actually rejecting what is written, like the Pharisees, straying, cherry-picking, without acknowledging the inherent mercy written in the Law of God, and outright rejecting it because they don't care about God and about their neighbor, according to all that He has to say, just their own self-imposed ways of doing religion, what their pastor paraphrased for them, not necessarily what's in accord with YHWH's Word. And only God knows how many thought they were sincerely guarding God's Law (not that sincerity in ignorance excuses it; there is still rebuke/punishment for what's done in ignorance)...
Luke 12:47-48 (NIV)
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
...and how many purposely are twisting the Law for some fleshly reason, even if they said it was for God with their lips, but are purposefully ignoring certain details because their flesh doesn't like those parts, and in truth aren't really honoring what God said.
Either way, we have no basis to pity one over the other. They're both reacting out of fear of man and/or fear of death, in contrast to the fear of God / fear of Jesus which would make them walk in adherence to what the Father spoke / what is written. Rejecting God's standards of justice—no matter who does it (Pharisee, Christian, atheist Buddhist, American, Israelite, male, female, slave, free, etc, etc, insert any label here)—is the same in God's eyes because it's the same motive no matter what: they prized something else as more important and true than what He said, as it is written. God views them equally transgressing for violating what's right. Rejecting justice and mercy, as it is written, is not honorable to God, even if we're religious and doing it in His Name, following some man's teachings, thinking we're pleasing Him, but we're not because it violates the Commands, in Spirit and in Truth.
The only reason I would venture to say that it's not an equal or fair comparison is that there are plenty of witnesses in the world who see us speaking / writing hate against wicked behavior and wicked people, in accord with YHWH's mind/word. So the world, who opposes what YHWH says, is actually being more fair than the lawless Christians at the Salem witch trials who condemned without sufficient witnesses. Unless the world is coming up with allegations against a particular individual, which the particular individual doesn't actually say/do, or is accusing/alleging despite not personally witnessing things that the believer allegedly said/did, in which case, they're back to being the same. The connection is fair if we base it on YHWH's Law.
Lawlessness is the hatefulness of the flesh that God does not approve (God is love and so are His righteous standards; God's Law is love. Violate it [including the bit of needing two to three witnesses to condemn to death] and you're walking in hate for violating/ignoring/rejecting this fairness and mercy [love]). Being lawful, according to YHWH's Law, is the love that God does approve of (but the world calls it hate).
Again, whose standards are we submitting to in order to define a certain person's behavior as truly “hateful”? And the wrong kind of hateful? And identify who is walking in hate, really and truly? Because according to God's Law, these Christians at the Salem witch trials, who condemned without two to three truthful witnesses, acted out of hate in a way that He does not accept. And whatever “fear” they may have had, if it led them into lawlessness, it is not a fear that Scripture approves of. The fear of God does not make us lawless. “But I did it for you God/Jesus”, won't be an excuse if it violates what He said.
Deuteronomy 6:24 (NIV)
24 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today.
Deuteronomy 31:12 (NIV)
12 Assemble the people—men, women and children, and the foreigners residing in your towns—so they can listen and learn to fear the Lord your God and follow carefully all the words of this law.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 (NIV)
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Matthew 23:1-3 (NIV)
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Jesus clearly wants us obeying what is read from Moses' seat (thus the bit about not stoning to death without two to three truthful witnesses in court)—regardless of how we feel. This is a command from Jesus. Our emotions will not excuse any lawlessness on our part—even if we misguidedly say we're doing it for God; like the Pharisees not keeping the fifth commandment and saying, "but it was for you God". Jesus rebuked that. He's really big on doing things "as it is written" regardless of how we feel, because God's Way is how we ensure the well-being of more than just ourselves, and keep things fair and merciful.
Luke 22:42 (NIV)
42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
Thus Satan's temptation, and Jesus replying all three times with three examples of "it is written". And when Peter tried to dissuade Jesus, based on human emotions, from doing the Father's will: Jesus compared Peter to Satan there too (rebellion against the Father's will, what is written, is not acceptable just because the circumstances are scary):
Mark 8:31-33 (NIV)
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Merely human concerns like, "this is scary, painful, uncomfortable, not pleasurable. Let it not be!" Well, if we respect what is written, we're going to do what is written, respect what the Father said, trusting that it will result in what's best, in fairness and mercy, regardless of how we feel. Any injustice/lawlessness we do will be punished. So if we're fearing the right One, then we're not going to be stoning people to death without all the lawful criteria being met.
2 Chronicles 19:6-7 (NIV)
6 He told them, “Consider carefully what you do, because you are not judging for mere mortals but for the Lord, who is with you whenever you give a verdict. 7 Now let the fear of the Lord be on you. Judge carefully, for with the Lord our God there is no injustice or partiality or bribery.”
You may do what you like but I myself can not hate another human regardless of what that human did. It's not in me to hate. I know many people might say this but I am one of the few who legitimately mean this. I can not hate. Even those who have done me wrong in the past I will still greet them as friends, I will still open my arms to them when they are in pain or cry. I can't hate someone for whatever choice they made or how they chose to live their life.
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