God is Dead

[darcyshirley33]

in response to the "love your enemies" thing...

i think it's just a way of maintaing social order. If everyone did what they felt like doing, like beating their enemies (lol), modern society couldn't exist. Religion is a way to keep people in line, and the more oppressive the society becomes, the more ascetic, alienating, and self-mutilating the values within religions become. That's not to say that self-denial isn't embraced by atheists, but religions like Christianity definitely promote self-denial.  

[darcyshirley33]

WakeUpaLlama

Gypsie_boy

As to the backstabbing, isn't it only guilt ridden if you want it to be? I mean, if I was raised to believe that sort of thing was honorable, then would I think it is guilty? By your friends logic, not killing someone would be a sin.

It maye be going slightly off the whole "Gid is dead" thing (brilliant quote, interesting guy - if you haven't you should read "When Nietzsche Wept") but it's worth commenting, I think.

I think that growing up with different morals would not make not backstabbing a sin because a sin generally is linked to the Bible which talks against backstabbing razz Nonetheless it's an interesting point to bring up.

If we (somehow) were able to grow up with no one teaching us morals either way (be it "killing is good" or "killing is bad"), if we grew up neutral in those terms, would we find that there is some "basic" sense of morality? I remember dicussing this in Philosophy of Contemporary Moral Problems once, but I don't remember the outcome. Still. Isn't interesting that most people, of various cultures, find unnesseraily killing someone a bad thing? Some religions/cultures support the killing of others for certain reasons (religion, celebratory, etc) but generally not for the heck of it. As far as Western civilization goes, all rules basically narrow down to "don't hurt other people" and if one has instincts opposing that, say if one thinks killing people is good, they are categorized under some sort of mental health problem.

It makes you think, though.

Is it human nature to not harm or is something that society come up so we could all coexist peacefully when civilizations got large enough we actually had to live close to each other and even close to neighboring tribes?

Personaly it's instinctive. But then again, it was taught to me since birth.

whenever you're discussing cultural values, it's interesting to look at what those cultures actually DO, to see if they really follow their value systems. Anthropology teaches us that cultures rarely follow their said value systems perfectly.

Now with the whole western civilization thing, even though our religions don't look highly upon senseless violence, western society has committed more "senseless" violence than any other sociocultural system. Whenever Europeans first came into contact with aboriginal peoples anywhere, one of the remarks the natives usually had to say about the Europeans is that their excessive violence is baffling. "Why do they kill so much?" is pretty much what they usually had to say to early ethnographers.

I think the ability to be able to will yourself to kill someone has to do with how alienated you are from that other person. Violence is virtually nonexistant in foraging societies, and from horticultural and pastoral to agricultural to industrial to post industrial, the amount of violence has only increased. When you're living in band societies, everyone you come in contact with is like a family member, and as much as you can get upset with your family member, you're rarely going to kill them. And if you did get to the point where you might want to kill someone, you always had the option of leaving first, since knowledge wasn't fractured to the point where everyone was dependent upon eachother whether they liked it or not.  

[darcyshirley33]

Efstathios

Honestly I think the bible was written with an agenda. At least the old testament.

Considering it says it's a sin to enslave Jewish people, but they can enslave everyone else. And other similar rules it makes.

Also the fact that so much of it resembles the Code of Hammurabi.

It's all either plagiarised or written with a clear agenda.

Aside from that though, I do think that if you read closely enough and consider you can find some good lessons, particularly in the new testament. I just wouldn't take the entire book as literal fact.

So, since that was never God in the first place, I wouldn't consider it in an arguement of whether God is dead. I think God is dead for other reasons, or rather slowly dying.

I agree with the Wiccan above who said Gaea is reclaiming her own, she turned New Orleans back into the swamp it originally was.
People are going to have to adapt to live in the world they have destroyed, I just wish more of them would see it, and do something about it.

Since this post is so long already...I'll just say I like the idea that people should live in a manner that doesn't give them guilt, that's cool and sounds like a good measurement to me.

no guilt = no alienation from yourself 3nodding  

[darcyshirley33]

`Breathless

I love all the issues people have brought up, but I want to say my point of veiw. I think that as evelution(cannot spell today) created humans, we with some form of mind, worshiped...something. We didn't know what, we were not told what. We just KNEW there was something. My basic issues with this fact is, what was it exacly? Were we feeling the sense that there was a higher being than us? If so, why do christians convert so many?
Why is there anyone to convert anyone? Don't religons say believe in your brother, to not harm others? It's never been about god or gods or demons or angels, it's been about power. We destoryed our own faith by wars looking for power. Christiany has so much bloody history that if a child was to learn about it he would be scared for the rest of his life. Why? Because of people seeking power therefore ending in destroction.
What about church though? Isn't that a place to freely worship, but what about the preacher? He mends his words to make a point to make you feel guilt. And theres that word again, guilt.
Why is there these heaven like places or these damned places for the sinners? Because of guilt, guilt for life, guilt for pain, guilt for everything we do. That's why people pray, for guilt, for pity, for sorrow, for hope. We don't pray just to give a "Hey what's up god, goddess, gods, higher beings" No never, we give purpose to it. I think that if we did like a guilt free life, we would storm into chaos. Why? Because people would start killing and feel no guilt, people would start having sex while married, or not married, and feel no guilt. People would cheat, people would have no morals because of no guilt. There would be none of these morals that we are born with, that we are taught.
But what is guilt really? I believe it's a form of keeping society in "balance" It's not always the balance we like but it's a balance that fits the criteria for our religon/faiths.
Basically my whole point is, we were created with a idea in our heads of a higher being, we grab on the the faiths we are taught and we live with guilt and morals. We die, then what? We got to heaven, hell, become nature, become another person, wander the earth, nervana, we become a star. Who knows! All I'm saying is I want to live my life to help others and to try to be the best I can. I'll die and see what happens. I will challange none, but I will make my point.
thank you for your time

you sound pretty close to saying that religion is the source of morals. You could learn self control if you do something wrong to someone, they get pissed and hit you, and you go "ow, that hurts. I don't want to hurt." Bam. You learn about something you shouldn't do if you don't want to get hurt. We internalize that. That's what morals are. You don't need a religion to teach you to internalize hurt.

And not every human culture believed in spiritual hierarchies, like a God that controls everything.  

[darcyshirley33]

Odin The Accursed

Not to rag on anyone's religion or anything, but the very nature of religion, even the word itself, means that it's impossible to know the right religion. I mean, you can't believe in a fact, and you can't know a belief. If you look at most of the religions, they provide answers to questions that can't be answered by people, such as the origins of the world and what happens when we die, so it's really more of an opinion than it is fact.
And yes, I am a slightly nihilistic person.

but Thomas Aquinas proved that God exists. lol. So he was invalidating faith, right?  

[Merrin Spicer]

Thomas Aquinas is nuts, okay? The guy is nuts. Actually, I am just saying that because I am tired. Look, you can believe what you want, but when people are telling me that I have to believe the same s**t that they do, that is when I am like, "Excuse me?" Uh... yeah, nothing is going to prove to me that God exists. Ain't gonna happen. You can believe it if you want to, but yeah, I am not going to. Of course, if I were to have any religion at all, it would be one where I would only worship the being in my own way... there would be no morals or any ritual crap attached to it.  

[darcyshirley33]

yeah, i'm just saying that the Christian "faith" invalidated faith a long time ago.

I think it was Adorno that said something about industrial society popping the Jesus pill to have religion. Faith doesn't have to exist if you have facts, which completely undermines the spiritual role of religion, and subordinates it to logical reasoning.

I just thought it was funny how religion became completely subsumed, and it's followers feel that by backing it up with "facts," that they're helping it, but really they're just invalidating faith and validating logical reasoning.  

[ObscureEnigma]

Religion should indeed not be synonymous with facts. Besides, "faith" is much different than "facts". I believe in facts, personally. I do not judge anyone who has faith, but I personally don't have it. Besides, if one thinks too hard about why their faith exists, it begins to diminish. I used to be religious until I thought... and here I am as an athiest now.  

[Merrin Spicer]

::smirks:: I never had faith. When I first heard about religion, I knew immediately that it was a load of bologna. It's just not my thing. God died before he was born.  

[every1lafs]

"God is dead." --Nietzsche evil

"Nietzsche is dead" --God rofl  

[ashemountain]

I just know this...if there was a god, my p***s wouldn't be sad.  

[ObscureEnigma]

Heh. I am glad that you have a happy p***s then. A real God doesn't exist, but the god who humans have created... I don't know, but I don't believe this s**t, so it doesn't matter. Blah.