The Soul, Body, and Identity

[Nihilistic Seraph]

With a pagan mind-set, how would one be able to reconcile philosophical thought and religio/spiritual beliefs in identity? I think that we can safely presume that most of us here have some sort of belief the soul, life after death, and the transfer of consciousness to the said life after death. This can be explained through various mythologies and teachings, but what makes more logical sense? What is the "me" inside this body? Am I a brain, a body, a soul, a mix of them?

Here's where Starlock's going to have fun, we can touch on determinism wink

Can it be a logical possibility that if we have a soul that when the soul transfers bodies, that it's still me? How would such a thing happen? It cannot be denied that we see the world through fleshy lenses, and so does that experience not make up part of our vital nature? If the soul leaves, do the perceptions follow, or stay, making the soul in essence not the "me" that lived? Is this good or bad?

So, I ask you all to share your views. Chances are, I'll be attacking them. It's nothing personal, jsut along the lines that if you, I can continue with my earlier beliefs with peace of mind that I'm not deceiving myself and just in denial. Contrariwise, if you have a good point, and someone else attacks it, I'll help defend it.

So yeah. Nihl's first week enrolled in a Philosophy major has resulted in a mini crises of faith biggrin  

[Jameta]

Without fully reading the post and knowing just the bare minimum or who and what I cite, I point to Aristotle, who, as shown in Politics, different systems suit different people, so long as they work toward 'the good life'.

I could, and probably am, completely off, but I should be working on my Writ 101 assignment rather than my I-Core. razz  

[Starlock]

Dude, I love Aristotle. But then, the fact that I checked out the Complete Works from a public library as "light reading" probably says more about my nerddom than anything else. sweatdrop And no, I didn't get anywhere close to done with it in a four-week period. Anyway...

(typed a bunch of stuff and then deletes it)

Um... can we operationally define "Mind" and "Body" and "Soul" please?  

[Warmdarksky]

I think of souls more as energy, so I suppose you're essentially not the same person each life.. More a collection of previous lives (partly your own and partly not smile ) It depends, I guess, on how strongly you feel we are all really separate people...  

[Azana Brown]

I can't remember which Transcendentalist said it, but...

"You do not have a soul; you are a soul."

I don't have the time to actually give my two cents (I'm at work), but I'll do so soon.  

[Kuroyue]

In my view, the soul is wiped clean as a slate when it re-enters a body as a new identity. The soul will obviously be a different person because of the different experiences acquired, but there'll always be a little 'quirk' he/she has that is a residue of some big event that happened in a past life. Like maybe this guy has a pathological fear of heights because he got pushed off the empire state building in the past life. Or is unnaturally claustrophobic because he almost got buried alive previously. As more and more lifetimes pass, the soul gathers more and more experiences that leave a permenant mark, and gradually develops a non-erasable persona evident during every reincarnation. The brain is there to make sure a guy acts in-character according to present lifetime experiences and inherited genes (and to make sure the guy is sane and functioning properly). So the body is more like a shell that a snail might move into. Whether a soul has a lifespan is beyond me, but I assume that it is VERY durable.

But, I know squat about a pagan's mindset, so I have no idea if my explanation helps. sweatdrop I think I'm a spiritual-athiest-bordering-on-agnostic-but-who-believes-in-life-after-death. Dunno if that has any similarity to a pagan's mindset. (Haha, I don't even know how to define myself yet. xd )  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

My apologies for not responding to the posts, but I have a few other things on my mind at the moment. My school is five blocks up from where it happened, and I've got a friend attending there.  

[Azana Brown]

Nihilistic Seraph

My apologies for not responding to the posts, but I have a few other things on my mind at the moment. My school is five blocks up from where it happened, and I've got a friend attending there.

*hugs*  

[Starlock]

Nihilistic Seraph

My apologies for not responding to the posts, but I have a few other things on my mind at the moment. My school is five blocks up from where it happened, and I've got a friend attending there.

Oiy, that's just nuts. It's so lame and pathetic that some individuals do things like this. (twitch)  

[The Bookwyrm]

Nihilistic Seraph

My apologies for not responding to the posts, but I have a few other things on my mind at the moment. My school is five blocks up from where it happened, and I've got a friend attending there.

*hugs*

I thought about you yesterday when I heard about it on the news. I really hope that your friend is alright.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Thank you all.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Starlock

Dude, I love Aristotle. But then, the fact that I checked out the Complete Works from a public library as "light reading" probably says more about my nerddom than anything else. sweatdrop And no, I didn't get anywhere close to done with it in a four-week period. Anyway...

(typed a bunch of stuff and then deletes it)

Um... can we operationally define "Mind" and "Body" and "Soul" please?

Body is easy enough I think. The physical side of us. Blood bones, brain, you name is.

Mind woudl technically be the mental side. All our thoughts, perceptions, memories and such. The question is, is this only an extension of the body?

Soul is one that could be called the spiritual manifestation of a person. The "spark of life" and what-not. I'm honestly not very sure how one would define it, and another issue is whether or not something like that exists.  

[Esteloth]

Could we maybe possibly define soul as a given amount of energy within our body? Our soul is the way it is because we have a certain amount of energy made into a signature/pattern that is constant... When we die, a lot of the energy leaves (which destroys the signature) because the cells can no longer function properly. Thus, the energy goes elsewhere. I think perhaps reincarnation occurs when a similar energy signature forms in another body (similar to that which was in another person's, in a nother life). I'm not sure how far into specifics I can go with this idea... Actually, I think this idea is rather new... Anyway, it's a thought...  

[WebenBanu]

Nihilistic Seraph

My apologies for not responding to the posts, but I have a few other things on my mind at the moment. My school is five blocks up from where it happened, and I've got a friend attending there.

*hugs* That's actually why I'm here today- I heard about it from Arcane, and we both wanted to make sure you were OK. Couldn't find the PM option on your profile, so I came here. I'm glad that you're alright- have you heard from your friend? I'll be praying for both of you!  

[WebenBanu]

While I'm here, I'll throw in my $0.02 on the subject- though it might be difficult debating me when I'm around so infrequently. sweatdrop

According to the Kemetic worldview, a person is made up of several different parts- there is an anatomy to both the soul and the body, each part serving its own purpose and sometimes doing its own thing after death. The biggest two contenders for the concept of a "soul" are the kA and the bA- there is also a part known as the XAt (usually pronounced "khat"), which corresponds to the above idea of a body, and the ib which is the heart and is spiritually considered the seat of both emotional and intelligent thought (AE doctors were aware of its role in pumping blood, and also of the importance of the brain- but we're talking spiritual attributes here). As far as identity goes, however, I think the only two we're really going to have to deal with are the kA and bA, since obviously the body and the heart as an organ do not reincarnate with anybody (except possibly if you're a Catholic awaiting rapture).

The bA is somewhat difficult to explain- it is the essence of you, it is an undying and perfect spark of divinity which gives you the seed of your existence. Some in our faith believe in reincarnation, and some do not, but for those who do most of them agree that this is the part which is reincarnated. However, this is not the part of the body which most people identify with during their life. It's a lot more subtle, I guess, and it's largely its expression through the kA that we recognize as "us."

The kA is an energetic double of the body- it maintains the vital energy which causes the body to live, and it also seems most vulnerable to psychological imprints of the various events, joys, and traumas of life. Arcane would say (and in fact, just did) that the kA is the soul's interface between the spiritual and physical aspects of your existence, and I'd add that you get a slightly different OS each time. The kA is a work in progress, right up until the day you die. After death, the kA is evaluated for the life you lived and, if worthy, progresses on to the afterlife. If unworthy, it is destroyed. Those who do believe in reincarnation say that at this point, the bA may be sent back to try again; those who don't say that both may be destroyed at this time. But regardless of the outcome, the kA- which most people would recognize as the "personality" of the person and therefore strongly identify that person with this body- is not reincarnated.

Interestingly enough, the kA and bA are said to visit each other from time to time after death. The kA traditionally rejuvenates the bA with its life giving energy at these times, although this would seem less necessary if the bA had acquired a new kA- but who's to say some of them don't just like to get together every now and then? I have spoken to at least one person who has said that she encountered what she strongly believes are her own past kAw (that's the plural of kA) from past lives while venerating her akhw (blessed dead). It seems reasonable to me that this could happen, though it must have been a weird feeling. I suspect that, for those who do recall "past life experiences" these memories are probably either due to experiences which managed to leave an imprint on the bA itself, or if an impression of a previous kA's memory was left behind during some such "visitation" between the bA and a past life kA. I also wouldn't be surprised if these visitations frequently occur during dreams, or even a trance state- and then appear to be randomly "jogged" by some stimulus during waking hours- as there is some indication in the texts which I have read that dream journeys may venture into the Duat, and would therefore be a convenient meeting place between ourselves and past life kAw. I personally believe that trance states are similar to dream states, so those would seem like prime opportunities as well.

So my view on this is that, if we reincarnate, then yes it is you who is reincarnated in another body. But it'll be a different expression of you, and a different experience of you, and not necessarily one which would be recognizable to someone from one of your previous existences- unless they were to look really closely to find the underlying themes, or unless their bA recognized yours.

In essence, we don't really know what happens after death and these are just educated guesses based on whatever information and insights one religious worldview has gathered and interpretted over the millenia. The dead don't seem to give us much detail on what goes on over there, and it would be best not to invest too much of a personal stake in any one account of what happens- because it might very well be wrong, or at the very least an incomplete picture. In my opinion, it's a bridge to be crossed once I get there. Don't worry too much about the mechanics of it- just do your best to live a good life as, no matter how you look at it, everything hinges on that. So my advice is to just work on being a good person, Seraph, and the rest will follow. 3nodding

And watch those philosophy courses- they can really mess with your mind. wink