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WebenBanu

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:36 pm
Yeah, I definitely think there should be some inquiry as to that judge's ability to abide by the laws he's sworn to uphold. This incident clearly shows that he's having trouble distinguishing between his religious laws and secular law, and having someone like that in a position like his is a danger for everyone- himself included.  
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:20 pm
Dr. Arcane
From 17th, August 2005; the Indiana Court of Appeals declared in a unanimous ruling, that a Marion County Judge overstepped in directing the parents to shelter their child from non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals.

The article, from the Indianapolis Star, said that the appeals judges did not find any evidence that Wicca represented any threat, physical or emotional, to the child; thus precluding the original court order. The article goes on to say: "Wiccan beliefs center around the balance of nature and a reverence for the earth. They do not worship Satan."

For the Appeals Court descision, and for the fact that it could happen in Indiana, score two points for the cause of Reason. smile No disrespect intended to any Indianans, it is just that I had a REAL bad experience there once. I am trying to process past my own prejudice.

Blessed Be


Hurray!! Now there won't have to be riots in the streets!  

Leith


Siofra Da`Halbria

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:42 pm
It's called freedom of religion. People can teach their kids wahatever they want, even to be members of cults. It's their right, even if everyone doesn't like it.  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:08 am
Atma311
scream stressed domokun

Winter Black
Hey, all the American Pagans should move to Canada! XD We could start a huge coven and stuff. (Joking, joking...)


Don't joke... I'm willing to guess that there's going to be a huge Pagan migration to Canada if they keep this up stare


theres rooms in my house  

ketrovin


Jameta
Captain

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:18 am
whee I think its funny that we never say we're going to migrate to Mexico...

Sorry, random. sweatdrop  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:06 pm
Winter Black
Atma311
scream stressed domokun

Winter Black
Hey, all the American Pagans should move to Canada! XD We could start a huge coven and stuff. (Joking, joking...)


Don't joke... I'm willing to guess that there's going to be a huge Pagan migration to Canada if they keep this up stare

Hey, I'd have no objection! I'm seriously thinking if they do, they can all come to Ontario and start a big coven. That would be cool, and then I wouldn't have to be solitary anymore. A Pagan community outside of Toronto would be ideal, in fact. Then Ontario, and Canada in general, would be truly open, and accepting of everyone.
Crap, man, I could plan it all myself! ><;;


Hey, I move out at the end of the school year, and if I change my mind about the military and if i don't get a full ride to an art college i want to go to, (or if i just have a change of plans) i'll move to canada. I seriously would have no problem moving away from the solitary idea.  

Seira Relur


Siofra Da`Halbria

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:04 pm
Jameta
whee I think its funny that we never say we're going to migrate to Mexico...

Sorry, random. sweatdrop


Don't you know T? We Pagans are all pale, light-fearing, heat-avoiding people! We stay inside all day making up spells to curse our enemies and make young, handsome/beautiful men/women fall in love with us! We fear the light because it's "the light of god!" shining down upon us, and that just wouldn't make Satan happy! And we don't want a grumpy Satan on our hands! And don't forget the heat! We Pagans all hate the heat! It makes the animals for our live blood sacrifices harder to find! They hide all day, and we have to search and search....[/sarcasm]

I'd also like to be able to drink the water where I live...  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:04 pm
Siofra Da`Halbria
Jameta
whee I think its funny that we never say we're going to migrate to Mexico...

Sorry, random. sweatdrop


Don't you know T? We Pagans are all pale, light-fearing, heat-avoiding people! We stay inside all day making up spells to curse our enemies and make young, handsome/beautiful men/women fall in love with us! We fear the light because it's "the light of god!" shining down upon us, and that just wouldn't make Satan happy! And we don't want a grumpy Satan on our hands! And don't forget the heat! We Pagans all hate the heat! It makes the animals for our live blood sacrifices harder to find! They hide all day, and we have to search and search....[/sarcasm]

I'd also like to be able to drink the water where I live...
rofl rofl rofl

Priceless.

For everything else, there's MasterCard.
 

Jameta
Captain


Rioto_Kish

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:54 am
Seira Relur
Winter Black
Atma311
scream stressed domokun

Winter Black
Hey, all the American Pagans should move to Canada! XD We could start a huge coven and stuff. (Joking, joking...)


Don't joke... I'm willing to guess that there's going to be a huge Pagan migration to Canada if they keep this up stare

Hey, I'd have no objection! I'm seriously thinking if they do, they can all come to Ontario and start a big coven. That would be cool, and then I wouldn't have to be solitary anymore. A Pagan community outside of Toronto would be ideal, in fact. Then Ontario, and Canada in general, would be truly open, and accepting of everyone.
Crap, man, I could plan it all myself! ><;;


Hey, I move out at the end of the school year, and if I change my mind about the military and if i don't get a full ride to an art college i want to go to, (or if i just have a change of plans) i'll move to canada. I seriously would have no problem moving away from the solitary idea.


That's a great idea! blaugh I'd love to meet other pagans, and I've always wanted to visit Canada! (I live in Australia, so being a solitary is kind of the only option... )  
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:22 pm
Gypsy Blue
A friend of mine pointed me out to this article on Frak.com, and I thought I had to pass this along. You can read it here, or in the page. It's the 4th post down here, or below.

Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs

Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.

-- Star report

By Kevin Corcoran
kevin.corcoranindystar.com

An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.

Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.

Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute.

The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school.

"There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.

Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January.

"This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."

The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him.

Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment. She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the Northside.

Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son.

"When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"

Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

"Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region."

Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University.

"The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side."

At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally.

"Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns."

Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered.

Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis.

"That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstrued."

The couple married in February 1995, and their divorce was final in February 2004.

As Wiccans, the boy's parents believe in nature-based deities and engage in worship rituals that include guided meditation that Jones says improved his son's concentration. Wicca "is an understanding that we're all connected, and respecting that," said Jones, who is a computer Web designer.

Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything resembling witchcraft.

During the divorce, he told a court official that Wiccans are not devil worshippers. And he said he does not practice a form of Wicca that involves nudity.

"I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."



This case is really old. This guy won his case, you know. He's allowed to teach his son his beliefs now. He's from my area, and his case was resolved a couple months ago. He said it was a big relief to have it taken care of. ^^  

Kakure Basho


Jameta
Captain

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:22 pm
shiawasenayousei
This case is really old. This guy won his case, you know. He's allowed to teach his son his beliefs now. He's from my area, and his case was resolved a couple months ago. He said it was a big relief to have it taken care of. ^^
The case was current when Gypsy originally posted over a year and a half ago. sweatdrop It's good to here that it was finally resolved, though. 3nodding  
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:39 am
shiawasenayousei
This case is really old. This guy won his case, you know. He's allowed to teach his son his beliefs now. He's from my area, and his case was resolved a couple months ago. He said it was a big relief to have it taken care of. ^^


It is indeed old, but it wasn't when it went up on Thu May 26, 2005 9:41 pm; it was just resurected recently. wink I followed the case until the final decision was reached, and it was certainly a relief when the parents won their case. I had a friend first send me this news story, and he and I both kept an eye out for further developments.
 

The Bookwyrm
Crew


Nihilistic Seraph
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:53 am
Well, now Laurie Cabbot is making a fuss again.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/salem-woman-says-witches-have-rights/20061030150209990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001  
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:38 pm
shiawasenayousei



This case is really old. This guy won his case, you know. He's allowed to teach his son his beliefs now. He's from my area, and his case was resolved a couple months ago. He said it was a big relief to have it taken care of. ^^


Really? I live in the Metro-area, too! ^_^*** But only during part of the year now. I attend school in Chi-town.  

Azana Brown

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