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Clash of Vision

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:13 pm


I realized a lot of people like to discuss what Goth is, so I thought I'd throw in a small article that I found a little bit ago. Just looking for some thoughts and reactions. Who knows, maybe it'll spark some thinking, too. 3nodding

Quote:
Am I a Goth? Are you?

Azhram noticed a rather distressing story regarding a very confused soul in a magazine regarding Goth, i.e.: What is a Goth. He approached the problem in a direct and personal manner and posted them for me; however, there are some things I disagree with. Azhram has two decades plus of Goth living, but then so do I, and here is where two long term Goths declare what IS Goth.

Goth with a sledgehammer

What is Goth?

Ignoring historical references to European barbarian tribes and, architectural, literal and art styles, Goth is a subculture. It started in the late 1970's both in Europe AND the United States OUTSIDE of the club/music scene. The culture was comprised of INDIVIDUALS with very little in common but their artistic drive, insatiable curiosity, extreme intellectualism, and the socially unacceptable need to be and express themselves. In a nutshell, Goth is very much like 70s Punk with a brain and good manners. (In other words, it shares the underlying feeling of disgust and separation from normal everyday culture that the 70s Punks espoused, but expresses its alienation and disenchantment with modern society and it's values in a more intelligent and less destructive manner.) The label Goth itself is very much a descriptive reference to the literary genre and architectural style both of which characterize and evoke the mood and to a certain degree, mindset that is generally idealized by modern Goth as a cultural group. However, it should be noted that the term subculture indicates initial acknowledgement that is it NOT mainstream. Goth is a subculture by definition, but it is also a lifestyle. The club/music scene was not the cause, but rather an effect.

How do I become Goth?

I hate to break it to you, but Goth is not something you can just learn. Gothic people grew up that way. Most people do not have the genuine sense of wonder, creativity, talent, open-mindedness, and appreciation of the duality of existence, nor of themselves and their abilities that makes a person genuinely Goth. While some of these things can be learned over the course of years, most of it can only be emulated. To emulate something strongly implies that the action is neither original nor genuine. That is just not Goth. It is not unusual that a Goth will 'discover' that the label Goth is what they are, but didn't know what to call it. In some ways being a Goth can be compared to being heterosexual or bisexual, you don't choose the lifestyle, you just come to terms with having it.

How do I know if I'm Goth?

This is a VASTLY more reasonable question. It's sort of odd and sad at the same time that a lot of actual Goths don't know that they are, many have been quite surprised to find out. This is unfortunately the work of massive media stereotyping and misinformation from ignorant but rather noisy wanna-bees. It seems that the bulk of available information on Goth comes from those two sources. Never mind that.

If most (10 or more) of the following statements are true, it is VERY likely that you are Goth. If the first statement is false, you aren't Goth. No, not even if all 16 of the rest are true. Of course, you would be readily accepted and most welcome amongst Goths for your strength of individuality and ability to appreciate the culture in general and themselves in particular.

· You feel the need to spend a lot of time creating things (music, art, poetry, philosophies, stories and the like)

· Your creative efforts are often described as dark, shocking, scary, morbid or strange

· You like museums and cultural centers

· You understand and even enjoy Shakespeare, Shelley, Browning or some other similar work without having to read the Cliffe Notes (not every country may be familiar with these gems of supposed higher learning. Cliffe Notes or a small book, usually under 75 pages, that contains the synopsis of a work of literature. For those who don't ACTUALLY want to read the required book you can purchase a Cliffe Notes and get the highlights and top quotes. They are in VERY distinctive covers that look amazingly like a construction warning sign).

· You know the difference between nihilism and existentialism, even if you don't really live by either

· You really, truly enjoy music of many kinds

· You are a very sensual person (aware of color, texture, sound, taste and scent)

· You don't understand why the people around you spend so much time watching TV

· You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know

· You do feel comfortable just being yourself, even if no one else around is anything like you

· You wonder "why" a lot, and come up with some interesting answers

· You wonder "how" a lot, and often figure it out on your own

· You don't just reject something because you don't understand

· You base your opinions of people on who they are and what they do rather than what they look like

· You are not afraid of the unknown

· You are not afraid of the dark

· You are afraid of mediocrity

Laura Lemay says that to be Goth I have to be angsty and wear a lot of black. Is this true?

NO. Black and angst are not necessary to be Goth. True Goth defies stereotyping and does not adhere to dress codes. Too much angst or other negative emotion stifles a person's ability to learn, think, and create. Azhram says, most actual Goths are psychologically pretty well-adjusted people, this depends on the area. I have noticed there is a difference in Goths mental stability depending on the country. Many have either started with or acquired some sort of angst, and as with any long term groups, this was not how Goth started, but it does greatly affect newer Goths and HAS become associated. Goths just have a different set of cultural and social blueprints than your average person. Ms. Lemay knows a lot more about web authoring than she does about Goth, even if she refuses to practice good web design on her own personal site. But she DID get one thing right when she said, "Try not to take yourselves so seriously." Granted, that's a little out of context, but it's good advice just the same.

So, this brings up a whole new can of worms...the most common tidbits of juicy misinformation about Goth. In almost two decades of watching people's perceptions of Goth, I have found that never has there been so much inaccurate information as there is now. It's time to break out the hammer and start banging. Let's take a look at the most commonly distributed misinformation about Goth, shall we?

Ten Gothic Stereotypes We All Love To Repeat

· All Goths must wear black. Color is not Goth.

· Goth is a subculture based on a musical style.

· All Goths listen to the same music.

· All Goths are fixated on death.

· All Goths drink a lot/do drugs.

· Goth came from the hippie movement.

· Goths don't laugh except to mock others.

· Goths all have tattoos and piercings.

· Goths always wear a lot of makeup.

· Goth and Freak are interchangeable terms for the same culture.

I know that a lot of so-called "Goth" people accept these things to be facts. I see it on the Web and I see it on what passes for a scene. I also know that this list of statements and quite a few others like them are just so much bullshit. So what is the truth? Here, let's go back through that list and correct things, eh? You might be surprised, or you might be another Olde Schooler, in which case, you'll be greatly amused.

All Goths must wear black. Color is not Goth.

I can see where this one might have some heavy support, since the scene is filled with cookie-cutter, black clad people who generally avoid the few daring individuals who might wear white, or gods forbid *gasp!* include color in their wardrobe. This lack of individualism strongly suggests to someone who doesn't really understand Goth that we have a uniform look or worse, that we are conformists. What people fail to grasp is that most people on the Goth scene are either skin-Goths (poseurs), demi-Goths (people who might make fine Goths if they could just get over what other people thought of them) or second and third generation Goths who just honestly never had any contact with other Goths who knew what the movement is all about. This is one of the things that created the paradox of a culture that was based on individualism and creativity but just the same had a rigid conformist dress code. Truth is, Goth is rabidly individualistic and we wear whatever we damn well please. Color is not an exception. You just don't recognize us when you see us outside of the stereotype. There is a 'style' called Goth now that has evolved from the stereotype, and dressing in fashion is not exactly a low-cost option. Most Goths tend to be from middle to high income to afford the lifestyle they are part of. Skin-Goths and demi-Goths spend an amazing amount of money on appearing to be in fashion, but a true Goth knows that the outfit doesn't make the Goth, (it can, however, make you look good).

Goth is a subculture based on a musical style.

I can also see how a lot of people might get this impression. A lot of otherwise decent sources of information on Goth and its more recent history offer this myth up to us as fact. It may even very well be part of the truth for some Gothic orgins in some parts of the world, but it is predated by the emergence of Goth as culture rather than Goth as musical genre in America (at the very least). The media (read record labels and associated musical rags) started this, and I find it disgusting that so many people feel the need to perpetuate this myth that the musical genre started Goth as opposed to Goth starting the genre. Many sources including the Usenet's alt.gothic group even go so far as to say that the actual cultural origins of Goth were a later fable added after the supposedly music-based trend happened. This is absolutely false. Before there was a so-called Goth sound, we had dropped the title of New Romantics and firmly settled on calling ourselves Gothic. The culture pre-dates the musical genre by a good two years. I should know. I was there. Honest. Here is one of the key points I disagree with Azhram. Much of new-Goth IS based on musical style, which is unfortunate since he is right.

All Goths listen to the same music.

Yah. Sure we do. Actually that's not highly likely. Even the skin-Goths have a semi-diverse musical taste. This is one of those ridiculous stereotypes that is glued onto every single culture that exists. It is true of none of them, and is just as untrue for Goths. I won't waste any more breath on this one. Again, Azhram focuses on a point, but as the Swedes say, "The cat is walking around the porridge". Goths DO tend to listen to the same type of music, overall as individuals Goths do have their own preferences that suit them in music as well, but the groups/styles they listen to tend to overlap a great deal. There are Goth that couldn't care less for what music is playing.

All Goths are fixated on death.

Okay people. Repeat after me: Goth is not about death. Good. Now go to your local institution of higher learning and enroll in art history and English lit classes. Learn about symbolism and metaphor. Maybe take a few philosophy classes. Being uneducated or ignorant usually causes this stereotype. Goths are by and large more fixated on the concept of beauty as an abstract, creative endeavours (both their own and those of historical origins) and simply trying to get ahead in a society that doesn't share their individual aesthetics, values and principals. If you have a decent fine arts education, an ounce of perceptiveness and know the difference between a real Goth and a skin-Goth, you know that Goth, while often dark and eerie, is NOT obsessed with death. Regular American culture is.

All Goths drink a lot/do drugs.

I realize that this is a pretty deeply ingrained idea about Gothic culture, but it's wrong. Goths are not all completely clean cut, sqeaky-clean sober types, but we aren't all into drugs. Granted, most young people go through an experimental stage with sex and drugs, and the bulk of Goth is made up of young people, but let's face it, Goths don't do any more drugs than your average person. Drugs aren't a requirement in being Goth, even if there are a lot of irresponsible people out on the scene who are hell-bent on telling you otherwise. We have a word for those types. Maybe you've heard it...Junkie. Just remember Goth does not equal Junkie.

Goth came from the hippie movement.

This is more media stereotyping. It is also completely false. Goth has nothing to do with the hippie movement. There are no similarities either (except being a subculture of it's own). Alt.culture has a really interesting but completely inaccurate write-up on Goth that mentions this, and people are entirely too fond of repeating this rancid little tidbit of misinformation. I'd like to say STOP IT right now. Just cut it out. Goth came from neither Hippie nor Punk. If it came from anything at all, it was a new outlook on Beat.

Goths don't laugh except to mock others.

This is just too pretentious. I've been a Goth for two decades and I spend a lot of time laughing at a lot of things that have nothing to do with the misfortunes or lack of taste of others. I am not the exception. Most Goths have a well-developed sense of humor that is really quite healthy. Certainly we don't all laugh at the same things or make the same kinds of jokes, but that is a given, isn't it? It seems that a huge number of people that claim to be Goth also claim that we don't share in the common human arena of emotion, but common sense alone should tell you that this is, like so many other things, a posturing load of unmitigated bull. Yes, I know that there are flocks of people who claim to be Goth that will demonstrate personally and in the most uncomfortable fashion that we are nasty, sociopathic bastards who live to laugh at your misfortunes and will excuse their unacceptable behaviour by claiming that it's the Goth way of acting. I'm sure you've seen them in IRC and Usenet and that they seem to be the unpleasant majority, but if you take a few minutes to think, it may become apparent that at least online there are entirely too many people claiming to be something other than they are and that people in general (online and off) are frightfully nasty towards one another if they feel that they can get away with it. Sure, we Goths have a different view of things socially, but then again, so do the Japanese, and no one accuses them of not ever laughing non-maliciously. Do they?

Goths all have tattoos and piercings.

More stereotyping. Tattoos and piercings have become very trendy these days. Stereotypical Goth has also become very trendy. So you are going to see a lot of skin-Goths running around with a lot of very obvious tattoos and piercings. You will also see a lot of Ravers, Rednecks, Indie Kids and other people who have nothing to do with Goth running around with tattoos and piercings a-go-go. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to deduce that one. Just remember, Goths are individuals. We will do what we think looks right on us, and if having no ink or metal imbedded in our skin feels right, we will do with or without and still be indisputably Goth.

Goths always wear a lot of weird or scary makeup.

No, not at all. This, again, goes back to the central idea that Goths are individuals and all exercise their own judgment on how they feel like looking. Sure, makeup is pretty cool, and its application can be a fun pre-outing ritual, but again, it is far from necessary.

Goth and Freak are interchangeable terms for the same culture.

This is ridiculous. It is almost as silly as saying that grunge kids and rednecks are the same cultural group. Sure, there may be some similarities in the stereotypical outward appearance to the grossly unobservant or the painfully ignorant, but it is still radically untrue. Anyone who would ever mistake one for the other after observing for a few minutes is either blind, high, or completely unaware of the actual social and ideological dynamics of both groups. I am thinking that if we are going to continue to live in a society that needs to categorize, stereotype and label, that perhaps we should more carefully analyze the people and things we are labelling before we slap a name on them. Don't just call someone something because they look a certain way. Visual stereotyping is a terribly inaccurate method for classifying people in real practice these days. Most often you will be wrong, and vastly poorer for it.

*Hefts the sledgehammer and grins*

So, hopefully some of this has made some sort of impact on some of you. Maybe you might even be a little more interested in Goth as a culture and individual Goths as people with something more meaningful and valuable to contribute to both society in general and yourself in particular than bad attitude, poor taste and drugs. Who knows, you might even realize that *you* are Goth. Or that the black-wearing scary kids who have been giving you a hard time because you can't recite every album produced by Christian Death before Valor took over aren't anything but trendies, bullies or jocks.

Or maybe not. Maybe you ARE one of those trying to impress your loser friends by pretending to be something exotic that you don't understand. In that case, you are probably gearing up to flame us. Go right ahead, but be warned: I we not easily embarrassed, frightened, or hurt. And we give as good as we get. So take your best shot and pray that we decide to ignore you.

Azhram and Fox
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:52 pm


Thank you for posting this article. I really enjoyed reading it, and I think it's great to get a perspective from someone who was actually there. First person accounts are always the best. 3nodding

lurichan
Vice Captain


zz1000zz
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:33 am


Quote:
You feel the need to spend a lot of time creating things (music, art, poetry, philosophies, stories and the like)


I disagree with this one, which happens to be the primary factor listed. I do not see a reason for a person who is open-minded and loves to learn new/unique things should not be classified as a "goth," just because they do not have a strong creative instinct.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:24 am


zz1000zz
Quote:
You feel the need to spend a lot of time creating things (music, art, poetry, philosophies, stories and the like)


I disagree with this one, which happens to be the primary factor listed. I do not see a reason for a person who is open-minded and loves to learn new/unique things should not be classified as a "goth," just because they do not have a strong creative instinct.


I agree it is a bit narrow, and should remark that this article should be taken with a grain of salt (as with all things in life). The main point of the article is that it presents a perspective from the older generation. And when I say old, I mean old. However, before knocking the statement, I would examine it and think about the implications behind the argument. Maybe it's stated such a way for a reason.

I think I've puzzled over the reason for placing such importance on that one requirement alone for quite some time. All I can say is that they percieve Goth as a movement of expression in one way or another. Simply following it doesn't make you a Goth, rather it's innovation and creativity that stem from the spark within. An expression from the inside, I suppose.

I dunno, I'm just offering up a possible reason for the statement. What do I know? I'm a friggin' penguin! smile

Clash of Vision


The Reused

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:07 pm


wow that was looonngg
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:21 pm


Quote:
We will do what we think looks right on us, and if having no ink or metal imbedded in our skin feels right, we will do with or without and still be indisputably Goth.


This gives me more comfort in the fact that I dress in ways that are stereotyped to associate with many (often clashing) other subcultures- for example, one day, someone might say I look like Axl Rose's illegitimate child; the next day, someone could say I look like a straight-up grunge kid (which is the only label I'll ever put on myself).

Wonderful nugget of knowledge you got there, though, Clash. I'm not ashamed to say I learned a few things and trashed some of my preconcieved notions that were still hanging around.

-Isel-


Henneth Annun
Captain

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:07 pm


"Who knows, you might even realize that *you* are Goth."

I actually, I'm not sure if 'discovered' or 'realized' is the correct word to use but, I "realized" that my personality and interests were considered part of the Goth subculture through reading an article much like this. I never walked around in 100% black wearing too much eye makeup (I never dressed like that) calling myself goth like many people today, I read an article one day while browsing some reading material and just found that I "fit" what the article said was true Goth. I did a bit more reaserch and came to find that acrticle for the most part accurate.

On a daily basis, I don't call myself goth. It rarely comes up, unless someone sees me in my trenchcoat and asks, then I take the opporunity to educate them on how Goth isn't mostly how you dress. I think many people I know don't realize that they could be classified as a Goth based on their interests, but if they hang around with me long enough, they will.

One of the worst problems with stereotypes is that they come from overgeneralizations. They come from a grain of truth that is spread out over a field to make harvesting it easier instead of gathering it in the wild. In other words, stereotypes partly exist because, I see it, that humans just look for ways to organize people because it makes it a lot easier to get along in the world, wouldn't it be easier to say you hate vegtables rather than trying every kind to see if you like vegtables? Maybe you don't like spinach, but that doesn't mean that you don't like vegtables. Putting things into catagories is easier. Instead of getting to know every person to see what the're like, you just take something you see a lot, (a lot of goths were black for an example, because so many people believe that), and apply that label and everything in it to people who fit it. People can say your not really goth because you don't listen to Marilyn Manson and wear black, and that cuts out almost 2/3(?) of the goth population. If you are goth and do like these things, it makes it harder because people will completely reject these ideas saying "no true goth likes this". (Personally, I don't care if my friend puts on classical music or Marilyn Manson, they're both okay with me. I'd rather listen to a Nirvana CD than Marilyn Manson if that was an option though...)

Black. The non-color that people will still call a color even if they know it isn't. Black is a very important issue for me. I don't wear it all the time, my wardrobe has plenty of the bright neon colors and deep ones I like, but I do wear it. Why? Well one of the reasons is that I'm just attracted to it. Here's some answers why....

1) Many people reject the darker things in life and stick to the sunny side, they don't realize that things would have no value and "specialness" if there wasn't a dark side. "How can you know pleasure without pain?"

2)The death factor. I'm not afraid of dying. (I just don't want to go now at this second, I have so much to do in life!) Without death, you can't really appreciate life, it's part of the yin-yang. I can recognize both.

3) Difference. Many people don't wear to much black, to them, it's a shade that represents sorrow and death. Or it's just "dark" (in the negative sense) and they hate it. I wear it to show I'm not afraid to be different.

4) Bright things hurt my eyes. xd (a little joke, although partially true, light intesity, light reflects off of colors....you know...)

5) This isn't a reason but something good that comes along with it. I get to educate people, I set myself up for a "why are you wearing black" conversation so I can educate them on goth and why I where it.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:49 pm


I'm still not fond of the "goth with a sledgehammer" article. I find it to be too broad, quite simply.

GilAskan
Crew


Freedom Fire

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:24 pm


· You feel the need to spend a lot of time creating things (music, art, poetry, philosophies, stories and the like) True, I do that. Or at least, I think of things to create, even if I don't always create them. I like to write song lyrics and stories, and I think of philisophies a lot too.

· Your creative efforts are often described as dark, shocking, scary, morbid or strange They're not always dark or morbid, but some of my ideas can be pretty odd.

· You like museums and cultural centers Depends on the museum or cultural center, but yeah, for the most part I do.

· You understand and even enjoy Shakespeare, Shelley, Browning or some other similar work without having to read the Cliffe Notes (not every country may be familiar with these gems of supposed higher learning. Cliffe Notes or a small book, usually under 75 pages, that contains the synopsis of a work of literature. For those who don't ACTUALLY want to read the required book you can purchase a Cliffe Notes and get the highlights and top quotes. They are in VERY distinctive covers that look amazingly like a construction warning sign). I like Shakespeare, mainly because I'm a drama freak. In general, I feel like I do understand literature that most people don't get, and then I often don't understand why others are having such a hard time understanding it. Our school play, Camino Real, is one example.

· You know the difference between nihilism and existentialism, even if you don't really live by either Um . . . I don't know if I do know the difference.

· You really, truly enjoy music of many kinds That's fairly true. I like rock mostly, but within that I like different kinds of rock. I aldo like 80's music and showtunes. I just like good music.

· You are a very sensual person (aware of color, texture, sound, taste and scent) Yup!

· You don't understand why the people around you spend so much time watching TV I think watch a lot of TV. Sometimes I just have it on in the background while I'm on the computer though.

· You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know Very true, I like to look different and seperate myself from the crowd. I want people to know I'm an individual.

· You do feel comfortable just being yourself, even if no one else around is anything like you Most of the time, yes.

· You wonder "why" a lot, and come up with some interesting answers I do question everything, and even I don't know how my brain works sometimes.

· You wonder "how" a lot, and often figure it out on your own I do like to figure things out for myself.

· You don't just reject something because you don't understand For the most part, yes. At least, I try not to.

· You base your opinions of people on who they are and what they do rather than what they look like I try not to judge people based on what they look like. It's tempting to do so, but I try my best not to.

· You are not afraid of the unknown Sometimes.

· You are not afraid of the dark I don't think I am . . .

· You are afraid of mediocrity If that means I don't want to be just average, yup that's me!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:54 am


GilAskan
I'm still not fond of the "goth with a sledgehammer" article. I find it to be too broad, quite simply.


Why do you find it to broad? Just a question. I'm thinking about extending this article with my own thoughts and comments here soon. I'm working on my feelings regarding it and Goth.

Clash of Vision

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