A Little History and a Little Fish (text wall, kinda)

[Jezehbelle]

Starlock

Yes, it does mean advice but not everbody knows that so it is taken as some sort of Wiccan law. At worst I've seen the Rede applied universally to Neopagan paths. Granted there are Neopagans aside from Wiccans who hold to the Rede as a guideline... but still. sweatdrop

I've had some arguements with people about people not following the rede, with them siding with "if you don't follow it, you're not neopagan, and you're a horrible person, blahblah". x _x;
Extremism's all over the place man. D:

Personally, I think it fits with the "Golden Rule" enough that it's generally exceptable as advice.
"Wound not others, do no one injury by thought or deed, utter no word to pain thy fellow creatures"
"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful"
"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor"
"Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you"
"What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others."
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

(edit - I can't really remember where I was going with this D: )  

[Creepy Albino Fish]

ahh, too much to read!

This is certianly interesting, though.

 

[deathcomes_onsilentwings]

Starlock

Jezehbelle

Starlock

Yeah, I didn't address that element because at the time I didn't have a good cover for that. Not sure I do now either. It isn't uncommon however for the world's religions to view something of humanity or the world as fundamentally 'flawed.' Even the Eastern religions tend to do that... Neopaganism is rather unique in that it doens't tend to embrace that viewpoint of "there's something fundamentally wrong with us/the world."

There are different ways to interpret how sinning influences your chances at a good afterlife though. I know there are some "Christians" (in quotes because I think that in many respects these people don't deserve the title) who go out, get wasted and do all these sinful things and later go confess... and the very next day go sin again. Now *that* right there is what they mean by taking the Lord's name in vein. xd In the end it's somewhat true that any sort of ethical code is in particality taken as a 'guideline' unless it is enforced by law. Even the Rede is more of a guideline than a rule or law. But I have no idea where I'm going with this now...

Doesn't "rede" just mean "advice"? It's kindof interesting how few people don't know the rest of the poem past "An it harm none, do what thou will" But I guess that's mostly the part that matters.

Yes, it does mean advice but not everbody knows that so it is taken as some sort of Wiccan law. At worst I've seen the Rede applied universally to Neopagan paths. Granted there are Neopagans aside from Wiccans who hold to the Rede as a guideline... but still. sweatdrop

I still hold the Rede as a guideline even though I'm a Pagan... am I not supposed to? sweatdrop  

[Starlock]

deathcomes_onsilentwings

I still hold the Rede as a guideline even though I'm a Pagan... am I not supposed to? sweatdrop

No, it isn't that you're not supposed to. It's that it is a mistaken assumption to say that the Rede is followed by all Neopagans. Followed by all Wiccans, yes, since the Rede is a Wiccan ethic, but not all Neopagans as not all Neopagans are Wiccans.  

[Redwing~Shadow]

the rede is more like a rule or guildline for wiccans to follow, and because there is a slight division between pagenism and wicca, then the rede doesnt have to apply for some pagens. it all depends.  

[iolitefire]

*raises hand* I don't follow the rede and I am pagan to the core. Although I don't do Europeon paganism....

This is a very interesting discussion and I think I'd like to add my input here and there. I agree with the idea that Wicca will have to be more organized if it wants to become a major religion. Having guidelines instead of concrete rules may turn off a lot of people because religion gives people moral structure...it is supposed to guide their daily life and actions. Having optional or guidelines instead of codes or rules will make it seem very wishy-washy to many people.
Consider that many pagan traditions do have codes and traditions. Back in the old days they did have structure, codes, temples. etc. Its a bit of an assumption to say that all pagan paths are unorganized....but the larger paths tend to be.
You also have to keep in mind that not every path follows the Golden Rule idea. They don't tell you to go off and hurt people, but the advocate self defense and even vengence under the correct circumstances. These paths aren't any less valid, they just operate under a different system, usually with big doses of honor.  

[Starlock]

iolitefire

This is a very interesting discussion and I think I'd like to add my input here and there. I agree with the idea that Wicca will have to be more organized if it wants to become a major religion. Having guidelines instead of concrete rules may turn off a lot of people because religion gives people moral structure...it is supposed to guide their daily life and actions. Having optional or guidelines instead of codes or rules will make it seem very wishy-washy to many people.

Consider that many pagan traditions do have codes and traditions. Back in the old days they did have structure, codes, temples. etc. Its a bit of an assumption to say that all pagan paths are unorganized....but the larger paths tend to be.

The supposed resistence to structure has always amused me, since where the religion doesn't impose a structure, the individual practice most certainly does. I think it's that so many, particularly in America, want the only rules to be *their* rules and nobody else's. Back in the past, relying off your fellow human was much more critical than it is now hence a real need for such codes. There still is such a need, but I think the general attitude of American independence and free-thinking counters the creation of such codes. This is even more prevalent when you get outside of mainstream religion.  

[MsAmberly]

Starlock

Atheism is a tougher bit. I get the sense that many drift in this direction because they're literalists to a fault. They'll see mythological stories, be they Biblical or otherwise, and having a knowledge of 'science' will dismiss them as stupid, foolish, etc. without really understanding the real point behind these things on a metaphorical level. I think that it's human nature though to be 'religious' in that there's always something that lies unexplained or awes us. That element usually manifests in some religious context and even the Atheists are hard pressed to escape that urge. Hence we've got Atheists who believe in superstitions or the occult or psuedoscience even though technically they shouldn't.

Atheist has come to mean a disbelief in Gods and the Creation myths. It is possible to belive in the occult seperate from deity, and an afterlife seperate from deity. I personally go by the idea that life as we know it was a very gradual but natural thing that no one conscious entity (deity or otherwise) purposely created. I honestly don't think we will ever know for sure how things got started but that science is getting closer and closer to an explination. It will eventually fall into the physics and ultra physics sections of science. That is if it isn't already getting there.  

[MsAmberly]

iolitefire

*raises hand* I don't follow the rede and I am pagan to the core. Although I don't do Europeon paganism....

This is a very interesting discussion and I think I'd like to add my input here and there. I agree with the idea that Wicca will have to be more organized if it wants to become a major religion. Having guidelines instead of concrete rules may turn off a lot of people because religion gives people moral structure...it is supposed to guide their daily life and actions. Having optional or guidelines instead of codes or rules will make it seem very wishy-washy to many people.
Consider that many pagan traditions do have codes and traditions. Back in the old days they did have structure, codes, temples. etc. Its a bit of an assumption to say that all pagan paths are unorganized....but the larger paths tend to be.
You also have to keep in mind that not every path follows the Golden Rule idea. They don't tell you to go off and hurt people, but the advocate self defense and even vengence under the correct circumstances. These paths aren't any less valid, they just operate under a different system, usually with big doses of honor.

I think you are right with Wicca needing to be more organized if it is going to become and stay a major religion for any serious length of time. I tried to tell someone that once and ended up having to back out of a tiff because they just didn't seem to get the importance of a code of ethics that is needed to define a religion as a religion.

I think people generally confuse or combine spirituality with religion. Spirituality is more personal and much more adjustable for that reason. It doesn't necessarily have to adhere to specific rules or laws and allows for personal experiences to guide a person. Religion, on the other hand, is set with codes and ethics and laws that define what exactly it is and what falls within the realm of that specific religion... what it includes and what is specifically does not include or allow.

Unfortunately, religion tends to act as a crutch for people, what they do or don't do because it "says in the book!" This is why I tend to call myself spiritual and very not religious. I do or don't do because I feel it is the right or wrong thing for me, but then I won't stand in the way of someone else doing as they see fit as well. I live in a pretty strong "don't mess in my life and I won't mess in yours" rule, tempered with an understanding of basic human emotions and how things may infuence a person's decisions and actions.