Social Pressures within Neopaganism

[Starlock]

I was listening to the most recent episode of Deos Shadow (and for those of you who are NOT listening to that podcast and have the connection speed to download it, you have no valid excuse for not subscribing to this magnificent podcast!!!! I seriously cannot recommend this puppy enough!!) and thought it would be ideal to post a topic relating to some of what they discused in the episode. What I'm going to say will make much more sense if you listen to the episode, so if you can, go listen to Episode #28.

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There are certain social pressures play within the Neopagan community (and would also apply more broadly to New Age/occult communities as well). Most of us know the drills. There are certain things that are just expected of us. Let's give an example; I'll base it out of the podcast for those of you who can't manage to download it.

A group of students at a workshop are doing an energy exercise. The instructor creates an energy ball that contains the essence of a particular object (unknown to the group) and passes that ball around the entire group. The instructor then will ask each person: "what did you feel?"

Most of us wouldn't think there's anything wrong with this. Yet instead of asking "did you feel anything" the instructor asks "WHAT did you feel." Subtle difference, but a world of difference; the latter confers the expectation that every person in that class, from newbie ot elder, felt something.

Well, what if you didn't? Would you say, "no, I didn't feel anything" when ten people before you were all describing things or make something up to fit the social expectation? Or if you did feel something, would you change your story based upon what others said before you?

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There are tons of things which could be discussed in regards to this topic, so I'm just going to go on a question spree:

How are the expectations we're setting influencing the nature of the community? When everyone else is talking about their patron deity, do you feel like there's something wrong with you because you don't have one? What about those threads on meditation and you just can't meditate worth a damn?

Does failing to meet these expectations make us feel like lousy Pagans? Have you ever felt that since you can't do this or that, maybe you shouldn't be persuing this path? if you did or didn't make a change, how did that turn out?

Where do these expectations come from? Are they coming from outsiders? From within the communities themselves? Some primal human need to conform to something?  

[Jezehbelle]

And then there's the expectation that you can't be a witch unless your mother or your some recent ancestor of yours was a witch... >_o

On the teaching, I think it's the teacher not realizing who they're teaching. You have to roll around and kick a while before you learn to crawl, you have to crawl before you can walk, you have to walk before you can run, and even when you learn to run, you still have to train before you can do a marathon.
It's like trying to teach a one year old to rollerskate -- you have to teach according to level and you have to learn on your level. sweatdrop

It's easy to get discouraged, but we have to remember that we can't do everything right off the bat, in this context or otherwise. If we could, why would we need teachers (ones that you find in a class and ones you find out and about the world)?

I had that time recently when I realized "everyone" had a patron god/dess except for me. There was nothing wrong with me or how I see and fellowship (I dunno if that's the right word or not, but it's close) with the God and Goddess, until I saw this discussion on another board about their patrons. "Doubt and pride are the surest routes to stupid".

It's pretty human to wonder if you're broken and to get discouraged. xp I think it's a bit more mature to realize you don't know everything (or anything wink ) and except it (but work on it anyways), than to woddle in that you don't know anything, though. ninja  

[The Bookwyrm]

Ooo, I like this topic. Very thoughtful, indeed!


How are the expectations we're setting influencing the nature of the community?

I think that we're setting the expectation that you must be able to do/feel/see/experience 'this' before you can call yourself by whatever denomination you choose. Naturally, there are certain requirements, but I think we're getting caught up on the little things like meditation or certain forms of energy work. Just because I can't see auras doesn't make me any less of a witch, but we have these conceptions that everyone can and will be able to do these things, and that they're a necessary part.

When everyone else is talking about their patron deity, do you feel like there's something wrong with you because you don't have one?
I actually had patrons long before I started talking online with other Pagans; they've changed since then, but that was more to fit life style and beliefs. They were always something that I personally felt a need for, but I realize that for others it's not necessary. I try to down play it, actually. Especially in a setting like this, it's so easy for a person to get information over load when they're not sure what they're looking for.

What's bothered me more in online discussion was the way familiars were treated, not patrons. Not a word of a lie, in my first year on Gaia I was a part of a group that had an ongoing discussion about their familiars. And all of these familiars were either a dragon, or a phoenix, or a pegasus, etc. All of them were Astral, and one user claimed that they had been barred from their bedroom while their falimiar held a colloquium of other astral familiars. There was a snowball effect after that: Everyone and their dog then had a being of power as a familiar, and it was disgusting!

What about those threads on meditation and you just can't meditate worth a damn?

I know I can't; I fall asleep! xd

But seriously, they make me realize that I'm human. I try to take them with a grain of salt, knowing that I'm not perfect, and I try to take what advice I can from them.


Does failing to meet these expectations make us feel like lousy Pagans?

It certainly used to. I guess I've grown since then. It makes me more concerned than anything, because I feel like we're spawning a generation of Pagans who claim to be able to do things in order to try and fit in. It seems kind of like power mongering for the sake of being impressive, you know? Within a system that is so up in the air, and where factions battle it out vehemently as to what constitutes a legitimate claim to a title, how are you supposed to determine what else is important? I think there's too big of a New Age influence leeking into Paganism some days; we're more concerned with energy work, crystals and auras than we are with the basics.

Have you ever felt that since you can't do this or that, maybe you shouldn't be persuing this path? if you did or didn't make a change, how did that turn out?

I've actually had people outright tell me that I shouldn't be persuing a path; or rather, that at the time I had no right to lay a claim to it because I was not lineaged. Ah, the good old Traditional vs. Ecclectic debate...

I'll be honest, the whole thing made me angry and made me feel that the person I was arguing with was as ignorant as they accused me of being. It sealed the deal when the information they sent me identified as Ecclecticism as it's own sort of tradition, just not one that fell in line with the Traditional. That had been my point all along, but for some reason I was repeatedly told I was wrong. *shrugs* Go figure.

Since then, I've been a little more hesitant to call myself anything in particular. It's unfortunate, but that's something for me to work on.

Where do these expectations come from? Are they coming from outsiders? From within the communities themselves? Some primal human need to conform to something?

Honestly, a little of all of these and definately from the mix and match nature of most NeoPagan paths. Where things are left so open to encorperate new practices, the lines get blurred. Especially since information of varying degrees of quality are accessable on such a large scale now. People are beginning to encorperate new things into their practice, but often it doesn't come out as being a personal choice, and when an Occult shop advertises classes there are honestly people who haven't yet realized that it's not required they know these things. Part of it's money making, part of it is a desire for freedom and new experiences, and part of it is inexperience and the desire to fit in.

I hate when things get so convoluted.  

[Starlock]

It's a very thoughtful podcast, which is why I seriously recommend it. whee There are some other great podcasts out there too, but this one gets my top pick.

Jezehbelle, your post reminded me of another chunk of the discussion in that podcast; namely it's title which was "When to call Bullshit." Perhaps some, so reluctant to admit they haven't experienced something or are somehow missing a key experience are also those most likely to manufacture those crazy stories that leave us sometimes scratching our heads? It makes me wonder if this great social presssure is what is creating the often disliked fluffy phenomena. We in some ways expect so much of ourselves (and often others) within Neopaganism and occult-related communities that newcomers are overwhelmed into manufacturing stories!

For example, does anyone really see auras? And what do we even mean by seeing in the first place? Are we talking metaphor? Literally?

The Bookwyrm

I think there's too big of a New Age influence leeking into Paganism some days; we're more concerned with energy work, crystals and auras than we are with the basics.

That's an interesting thought. What would you consider the basics of Paganism, then? Some consider the basics of Paganism TO be at least basic energy work and sensitivity to magic; perhaps that assumption should be challenged? Chris Penczak for instance starts you out with that sort of thing. Sometimes I wonder about the distinction between the New Age and Neopagan communities. One scholar I read stated the fundamental difference was basically what direction one looks in (Neopagans draw inspiration from the past and New Agers from the promise of a 'new age' future) but sometimes I don't think it is even THAT straightforward. sweatdrop

The Bookwyrm

I've actually had people outright tell me that I shouldn't be persuing a path; or rather, that at the time I had no right to lay a claim to it because I was not lineaged. Ah, the good old Traditional vs. Ecclectic debate...

I'll be honest, the whole thing made me angry and made me feel that the person I was arguing with was as ignorant as they accused me of being. It sealed the deal when the information they sent me identified as Ecclecticism as it's own sort of tradition, just not one that fell in line with the Traditional. That had been my point all along, but for some reason I was repeatedly told I was wrong. *shrugs* Go figure.

Since then, I've been a little more hesitant to call myself anything in particular. It's unfortunate, but that's something for me to work on.

We seem to in general get very bogged down with putting a label on the experiences our ourselves. That too might be some of the challenge revolving around expectations. We talk about spirit guides for example, but what exactly IS a spirit guide? What if your experience that you think might be a spirit guide doesn't quite fit what the sources are telling you? Nothing else really seems to fit either, so what do you do? Use the term 'spirit guide' since it's a best fit? And then does it come off to people that you're claiming to have experiences that you actually haven't?  

[The Bookwyrm]

Starlock

The Bookwyrm

I think there's too big of a New Age influence leeking into Paganism some days; we're more concerned with energy work, crystals and auras than we are with the basics.

That's an interesting thought. What would you consider the basics of Paganism, then? Some consider the basics of Paganism TO be at least basic energy work and sensitivity to magic; perhaps that assumption should be challenged? Chris Penczak for instance starts you out with that sort of thing. Sometimes I wonder about the distinction between the New Age and Neopagan communities. One scholar I read stated the fundamental difference was basically what direction one looks in (Neopagans draw inspiration from the past and New Agers from the promise of a 'new age' future) but sometimes I don't think it is even THAT straightforward. sweatdrop

Your key word in there is basic. Basic energy work, to me at least, is the ability to raise and focus energy, to be able to charge tools when needed, and to be able to cast a circle. You don't need to be able to see auras, or heal psychicly, or channel entities, or invoke dragons, fae and half of the Greek Pantheon within your first month of study. These things take years, and some of them may never even be necessary to an individual's practice, but there seems to be this pressure that you need to be able to do these sorts of things in order to claim the title of "Pagan".

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The Bookwyrm

I've actually had people outright tell me that I shouldn't be persuing a path; or rather, that at the time I had no right to lay a claim to it because I was not lineaged. Ah, the good old Traditional vs. Ecclectic debate...

I'll be honest, the whole thing made me angry and made me feel that the person I was arguing with was as ignorant as they accused me of being. It sealed the deal when the information they sent me identified as Ecclecticism as it's own sort of tradition, just not one that fell in line with the Traditional. That had been my point all along, but for some reason I was repeatedly told I was wrong. *shrugs* Go figure.

Since then, I've been a little more hesitant to call myself anything in particular. It's unfortunate, but that's something for me to work on.

We seem to in general get very bogged down with putting a label on the experiences our ourselves. That too might be some of the challenge revolving around expectations. We talk about spirit guides for example, but what exactly IS a spirit guide? What if your experience that you think might be a spirit guide doesn't quite fit what the sources are telling you? Nothing else really seems to fit either, so what do you do? Use the term 'spirit guide' since it's a best fit? And then does it come off to people that you're claiming to have experiences that you actually haven't?

That's why it's important to read and to talk with as many people as possible; I don't think that the experience is the same for everyone, and we shouldn't have to base our experiences on those of other people so rigidly. If it's a best fit, it's a best fit; some times it's hard to communicate ideas and experiences, but one has to try and a person has to ask questions. My aunt and I have had very different experiences with spirit guides, but we've both found them. They're as different as night and day, but as chilice as it sounds, there are just some things you know. I knew mine the moment I saw him, and he's been with me since the beginning. She didn't recognize hers, and it took years before she found it. Hers manifests on a physical plane, and mine doesn't. But they both perform the same function in our lives, and they both guide us.

But we're back to it: Who says you even have to encounter a spirit guide to be Pagan? It's a wonderful idea, and it's comforting to have, but it's sort of like having patrons: It's more like a bell or a whistle than an essential, something to add more depth to a personal practice. Only it never comes across as that, does it?  

[Jezehbelle]

I have no idea, since I've never gotten into auras or scrying. sweatdrop I personally favor physical objects a bit more than mental ones though...
. -.;
(except for numerology, because I'm not sure if thats concidered mental or physical o_O; )

Some of where this all might come from might be coming from the "newbie" books (and I'm not just talking Silver Ravenwolf either).
The first chapters usually on some amount of history, either in ancient pagan religions or in post-Christian Europe contexts and then modern paganism (or Wicca, depends on the book). Then there's a small discussion on divinity -- it might be the next chapter, but it's usually a smaller part of the first chapter.
Then they hop right into meditation, chakras, astral travel/projection, tools, rituals, initiation, sabbats, then color, number, and herbal correspondences, even which gods or goddesses you should evoke for certain matters, the witchy alphabets, like runes and theban, divination (including, but not limited to, tarot, numerology, scrying, tea leaves, cheiromancy, etc), without much explaination of why they should know this or where this came from. When you make a book with so many topics, you HAVE to cambellsoupit, so they take out the why and why (in my opinion) is so MUCH more important than knowing that Friday is a day for love spells and how to make a black mirror or how to etch an athame. x __x;; I think it kinda sets up this expectation that most pagans do these things, or at the very least, most Wiccans do ALL of those things.

It's one thing for someone online to say something, like you should do this, and kindof another if it's in so many books by various BIG pagan/wiccan authors... If you're new (especially if you're new) and all of these books have all (+/-) of these practices in them, it's easy to think that you HAVE to do all of these things, as if you have to travel astrally every once in a while, even if the author doesn't directly say it. gonk sweatdrop If -Any Author whose written an introduction to Witchcraft book- lists all of these things, it makes it seem a bit neccessary to fake it till you can. . _.  

[Rioto_Kish]

I can relate to this feeling. I'm new to all of this and because I'm a solitary (lack of a better word, sorry) I don't know if I'm doing anything correctly or not. When I read about people feeling energy or manipulating it, I feel lost, because I've never felt that. I've done meditation, but not to the extent of others.

I've never communicated with a deity. (Well, I've asked for their help, and I received it and got an answer, but I never saw them) I read here all the different experiences people have had with the gods/elements/fae, etc and all I can think of when I read this is 'that will never happen to me.' I've got this perpetual fear that if I do see or hear something, it'll just turn out to be my mind playing tricks on me, and I didn't actually communicate at all... sweatdrop

Sometimes I do feel a bit like a 'lousy pagan,' but I keep telling myself that hopefully I'll get better. I think it is (for me, anyway) a sort of need to fit in-like, if I can't keep up, then maybe I shouldn't be doing it.

The only problem with this is, is that even if I can't do half the things other people can, I'm not going to give up. I may never meet the gods, or the fae or elements and I may not be able to do simple energy manipulation, but being a pagan is something I can't really change. What I believe is what I believe, and just because I can't do what someone else can, doesn't mean that I'm going to forget my beliefs because of it. Maybe I'll stumble across something that I will be able to do, and if I do, I won't feel like this so much, but even if I never find anything, I'll still be pagan, because it feels right.

Sorry about my little rant... sweatdrop I just needed to say it, and this seemed like somewhere I could say it, because it's sort of related. (Hope I'm not spamming the thread!)  

[blindfaith^_^]

I posted this in another guild, but I'll put it up here too. Also as a side note I just wanted to mention what great topics you seem to write up all the time Starlock ^.^



I have problems with this from time to time. Over the winter break, some of my friends and I met to do energy work and it was fairly basic relax, help prepare ourselves for draining times sort of thing. In our group I am seen as a particularly "sensitive" person. This isn't especially true, what would be more correct, is that when I "feel" something, it is very specific and eeriely accurate. I do not however, feel things all the time or even most of the time.

During one of our workings one of my friends swooned and had to sit down for a moment. She explained after the fact that the energies were just so much that she had been overwhelmed and certainly we must have all felt it. Everyone turned expectantly to me to verify this. Now what am I supposed to do here? It is a lose lose situation. On one side I could lie and say I felt the same thing but thankfully my training prepared me to better handle it. On the other side I could deny what she felt and have everyone think that it was invalid because as the "sensitive" one I should know.

At the end of the day I ignored the expectation and instead said that it must have been a disconcerting experience and could I get her anything. In this way I was hopeful to not have to admit to not feeling anything without making her feel that she was wrong. The subject was dropped, but it was still an uncomfortable moment.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Starlock

How are the expectations we're setting influencing the nature of the community?

Expectations are a bit of a double edged sword. Yes, they can encourage people to succeed and let them know that the goal actually does exist. On the other hand, it can make people who have a hard time with the issue in question feel bad.

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When everyone else is talking about their patron deity, do you feel like there's something wrong with you because you don't have one? What about those threads on meditation and you just can't meditate worth a damn?

I think it depends on the person. Personally, I have used to have Thoth and the Morrigan as patrons. The Morrigan left, but I'm fairly sure that Thoth is still sticking around. In terms of mediation, I don't practice enough to meditate enough.

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Does failing to meet these expectations make us feel like lousy Pagans? Have you ever felt that since you can't do this or that, maybe you shouldn't be persuing this path? if you did or didn't make a change, how did that turn out?

Again, it depends on the person, and how much inportance they place on the path. The idea of a "lousy pagan" is a very nebulous one. Is a non-devout pagan a lousy one? Is a lousy pagan one that goes against what they profess?

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Where do these expectations come from? Are they coming from outsiders? From within the communities themselves? Some primal human need to conform to something?

I'd think the later. I'd say it's human nature to want to form groups, and unfortunately conformity usually ends up coming hand in hand with that.  

[Starlock]

Jezehbelle

Some of where this all might come from might be coming from the "newbie" books (and I'm not just talking Silver Ravenwolf either).
The first chapters usually on some amount of history, either in ancient pagan religions or in post-Christian Europe contexts and then modern paganism (or Wicca, depends on the book). Then there's a small discussion on divinity -- it might be the next chapter, but it's usually a smaller part of the first chapter.
Then they hop right into meditation, chakras, astral travel/projection, tools, rituals, initiation, sabbats, then color, number, and herbal correspondences, even which gods or goddesses you should evoke for certain matters, the witchy alphabets, like runes and theban, divination (including, but not limited to, tarot, numerology, scrying, tea leaves, cheiromancy, etc), without much explaination of why they should know this or where this came from.

Yeah, that IS a lot to chew on isn't it? I felt sometimes when just starting off that the 101 books really present too much material sometimes. What are really the basics of, say, a solitary Wiccan dedicant? Sometimes presenting a bunch of superficial information on a broad range of topics isn't the way to go. There aren't many books that take a more detailed look at a specific topic and those that do tend to be more reference/encyclopedic.

Rioto_Kish

I can relate to this feeling. I'm new to all of this and because I'm a solitary (lack of a better word, sorry) I don't know if I'm doing anything correctly or not. When I read about people feeling energy or manipulating it, I feel lost, because I've never felt that. I've done meditation, but not to the extent of others.

Heh, I think many of us wonder that... even those who have been doing this for a little while. Validation of some sort is important; that's where interacting with a local Pagan community can be helpful if there is one in your area. I don't know when it was, but at some point I just stopped caring if I was doing anything 'correctly' or not and instead just started focusing on the raw experience or experimenting to find what seemed to work for me. At some point you just trust yourself I guess.

Nihilistic Seraph

Quote:

Does failing to meet these expectations make us feel like lousy Pagans? Have you ever felt that since you can't do this or that, maybe you shouldn't be persuing this path? if you did or didn't make a change, how did that turn out?

Again, it depends on the person, and how much inportance they place on the path. The idea of a "lousy pagan" is a very nebulous one. Is a non-devout pagan a lousy one? Is a lousy pagan one that goes against what they profess?

The "lousy Pagan" is a reflection of the standards and expectations set for people within the community (ie, the "I'm more Pagan than thou" bit). I suppose this does beg the question of exactly what DOES make a good modern Pagan practitioner, but that isn't particularly addressed in the podcast and could be a topic in itself.  

[Jezehbelle]

A history lesson, how old Wicca really is, Pre-Christian European/American culture and a bit of prehistory and how it relates to us today. The Old Laws and the Rede, then the God and Goddess, and a light breakdown of the pantheons. The seasons, quarters and cross quarters, explained, in both wheel of the year story of the god and goddess and generally explained, and what people generally do on the Sabbats, then information about the Lunar year. Ritual space, from a basic (and MORE basic) to things you could add in to it. Circle space, the Corners, and explaination of both ("Why circles?" "Why for North be Earth?"). Suggested practices, like meditation, et cetera. Self dedication and furthering education.

I thinkyou could put some more into it, but I think those are some of the basics I would put in.  

[The Bookwyrm]

Jezehbelle

A history lesson, how old Wicca really is, Pre-Christian European/American culture and a bit of prehistory and how it relates to us today. The Old Laws and the Rede, then the God and Goddess, and a light breakdown of the pantheons. The seasons, quarters and cross quarters, explained, in both wheel of the year story of the god and goddess and generally explained, and what people generally do on the Sabbats, then information about the Lunar year. Ritual space, from a basic (and MORE basic) to things you could add in to it. Circle space, the Corners, and explaination of both ("Why circles?" "Why for North be Earth?"). Suggested practices, like meditation, et cetera. Self dedication and furthering education.

I thinkyou could put some more into it, but I think those are some of the basics I would put in.

Ah, but that's pretty Wiccan exclusive; a lot of that could carry over into most other paths, but I think it's more than just the Wiccans feeling pressure to be able to do certain things  

[Jezehbelle]

The Bookwyrm

Jezehbelle

A history lesson, how old Wicca really is, Pre-Christian European/American culture and a bit of prehistory and how it relates to us today. The Old Laws and the Rede, then the God and Goddess, and a light breakdown of the pantheons. The seasons, quarters and cross quarters, explained, in both wheel of the year story of the god and goddess and generally explained, and what people generally do on the Sabbats, then information about the Lunar year. Ritual space, from a basic (and MORE basic) to things you could add in to it. Circle space, the Corners, and explaination of both ("Why circles?" "Why for North be Earth?"). Suggested practices, like meditation, et cetera. Self dedication and furthering education.

I thinkyou could put some more into it, but I think those are some of the basics I would put in.

Ah, but that's pretty Wiccan exclusive; a lot of that could carry over into most other paths, but I think it's more than just the Wiccans feeling pressure to be able to do certain things

But she wanted me to do one for the Solitary Wiccan Dedicant, so, I did. ^^;

But, for a more general pagan book, I'd open up with a discussion on what Paganism is, then move into a history lesson of Upper Paleolithic and Neolithic beginnings of Gods, ancient Pantheons (the major ones -- Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Celtic, Nordic, etc) and their civilizations. Again, a bit of history between the 4th Century CE and today. The major Pagan paths. As far as calendars go, I'd probably just put in the solstices and equinoxes, since they show up so often, but itsortof depends on the others.

Really, if I were seriously to make a book as an introduction to Paganism, I don't think I could make just one. I could make BOOKS on the different kinds, but I don't think I could make one good book on Paganism without leaving too much out for one religion or another...  

[The Bookwyrm]

Jezehbelle

But she wanted me to do one for the Solitary Wiccan Dedicant, so, I did. ^^;

*re-reads posts* Don't mind me then, hun. I should probably not be on the boards when it's past midnight and I had an early morning. sweatdrop  

[Jezehbelle]

The Bookwyrm

Jezehbelle

But she wanted me to do one for the Solitary Wiccan Dedicant, so, I did. ^^;

*re-reads posts* Don't mind me then, hun. I should probably not be on the boards when it's past midnight and I had an early morning. sweatdrop

It's fine. biggrin I totally understand. I should probably quote more, but then, I'd get lost in a forest of quote trees. ; -;

And it gave me an oppurtunity to elaborate on a more general book. :b