Wicca: Not What you think: Warning, rant

[Milendil]

I just need a place to vent and get info out at the same time. I hear so many people claiming to be Wiccan when in reality, they are not. Like if someone says they have been Wiccan all their life they are delusional or lying. Wicca is a fertility mystery oath bound cult that was formed by Gerald B. Gardner. He was influenced by a lot of different things such as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Alister Crowley and Christianity.

If you have read books like Silver Ravenwolf and Scott Cunningham about Wicca, I assure you, they are incorrect. Silver was never in a Wiccan Coven and Cunningham was only initianed into the First Degree.
All Wiccan's are Pagan because Pagan just means anyone who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew. All Wiccan's are witches, but not every witch is Wiccan.

Here is a some good places to go (NOT wikipedia or religious tolerance website as they are completely incorrect)

Wicca
FAQ

Witchcraft Thread

Knowledgeable Gaians:

Scorplett
Teadidaki
ShadowSorrow
Nuri

One of them is ACTUALLY Wiccan, but I forget which one...  

[Lady Detarra]

Just want to say brilliant rant xp  

[Milendil]

Lady Detarra

Just want to say brilliant rant xp

Lol, thanks.  

[Atma311]

I want to say a few things:

1. We have a subforum for rants specifically already. Yeah... I know no one goes there, but that's how things are until Jameka or someone with equal pull in the guild says otherwise. This thread will be moved there tomorrow (so that you know we didn't just delete it).

2. Please never ever disrespect Scott Cunningham or assume that his information is wrong simply because he wasn't initiated to your liking. His books are as valuable of information as a 10 millionth degree initiate. Also, I can assure you that many people whom are initiated into much higher ranks couldn't hold a candle to his knowledge of Wicca OR the intelligent manner in which he conveys his knowledge.

I don't agree with the whole initiation idea, but I won't disrespect your beliefs about it and I won't argue with you about it because I honestly could care less, but I don't want to hear about how someone is less reliable unless they're initiated to the ____ degree (especially when it's someone as respectable as Scott Cunningham).

3. Don't knock religioustolerance.org either. They may not be completely and utterly reliable, but everyone is fallible. For people whom only gathered information without any actual experience, they did pretty well. When I was first learning about Paganism, I read the ENTIRE site (it took forever, too) and understood things pretty well, considering I hadn't heard any of this information a day prior to it.

Anyway, I guess I'm trying to say that "denouncing" things that are critical components for the understanding of those who are just starting out or those who would just like more information altogether is a bad idea. Now if these sources were blatant lies that were solely intending to make Pagans look bad (or even if they did so accidentally), then I might reconsider, but as far as the sources I covered, I'm putting my foot down.  

[Gawqueenpenguin]

Milendil

All Wiccan's are Pagan because Pagan just means anyone who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew. All Wiccan's are witches, but not every witch is Wiccan.

Pagan (sorry getting offended a bit because i consider myself a purist pagan) is Not JUST someone who is not " a Christian, Muslim, or Jew " because then that would include Buddhism and really Buddhism is not pagan. nor are alot of non Christian, Muslim or Jewish faiths.

Pagan means in the strictest form: a person or community that follows the beliefs of a polytheistic (many gods) religion.

and Wicca yes started a while ago but has grown. It is a Young religion that is learning what it really should be. do you think the Christians had the bible all set up in less than 50 years HA no. do you think they had their set belief system set in stone not really but they did have a base... You believed Jesus was gods only son sent to earth to save your soul. Wicca is still young but the base definition that any one who considers them self wiccan can agree on is that wicca is Nature based practices that follow pre Christian religions and gods.


don't be so strict with one of the most accepting religions out there. Do not claim someone is not Wiccan because they have yet to go through some rite or passage, or you might as well become the Catholic church.  

[Kittey-chan]

Guess what? "Wicca" had grown beyond its original boundaries, much like Christianity has outgrown its boundaries.

That 'original' or 'real' Wicca you're talking about is to current Wicca what the Catholic church is to current Christianity. The precursor, sure. The one that started it, sure. The only one? Not by a long shot.

Stop parroting what other people have told you and look at the world around you. These people are part of a religion they call Wicca. They've organized it, legalized it (and yes, legally, they are Wiccans and not just impostors or wannabes) and made it grow. That may be where the name came from. That may be where the idea came from. However, it has grown larger than that.

And a question: This particular, organized religion- what would you call it, if not wicca? There's a name for Gardnerian wicca already. But the larger, more modern version has no other name than Wicca; and I imagine that even if you could find a name to suit it, convincing people to change the name of their very real religion would be rather difficult.  

[Starlock]

While I do not completely disagree with the stance of the OP, I have generally found they take their perspective too far. Like it or not, the term "Wicca" has expanded in usage to be applied to things not within its original conception. I believe these people would be making better use of their time if they simply pointed out the distinction between Traditional Wicca and its other more progressive forms rather than harp on people who use the term Wicca more broadly. The broader usage of the term is not going to go away and it doesn't make sense to me to be so stick-in-the-mud about the usage of the term Wicca.

But I'm of the practical sort. Denying the more widespread usage of a word strikes me as futile. If someone uses the word 'theory' for instance in its non-scientific sense, I don't yell at them and tell them they have the wrong definition of 'theory.' I point out to them that 'theory 'as used by scientists means something much more specific than it does to non-scientists. I'm not going to be able to ever stop the more lay-usage of the word 'theory' and it would be futile to try as the lay-usage is also an equally valid definition. It just isn't the definition used in scientific circles. That's all one really has to do. That's all the Traditional Wiccan supporters have to do too, but unfortunately many of them don't see it that way and end up going overboard on some emotionally-driven crusade.  

[Milendil]

Gawqueenpenguin

Milendil

All Wiccan's are Pagan because Pagan just means anyone who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew. All Wiccan's are witches, but not every witch is Wiccan.

Pagan (sorry getting offended a bit because i consider myself a purist pagan) is Not JUST someone who is not " a Christian, Muslim, or Jew " because then that would include Buddhism and really Buddhism is not pagan. nor are alot of non Christian, Muslim or Jewish faiths.

Pagan means in the strictest form: a person or community that follows the beliefs of a polytheistic (many gods) religion.

and Wicca yes started a while ago but has grown. It is a Young religion that is learning what it really should be. do you think the Christians had the bible all set up in less than 50 years HA no. do you think they had their set belief system set in stone not really but they did have a base... You believed Jesus was gods only son sent to earth to save your soul. Wicca is still young but the base definition that any one who considers them self wiccan can agree on is that wicca is Nature based practices that follow pre Christian religions and gods.


don't be so strict with one of the most accepting religions out there. Do not claim someone is not Wiccan because they have yet to go through some rite or passage, or you might as well become the Catholic church.

Uh, no.
Wicca is a fertility cult that is oathbound and requires sex in the initiation. Gardner stated that, so therefore anything else is completely wrong.
And have you looked in a dictionary? The first definition says that Pagan means anyone who is not Christian, Muslim, or Jew. So technically, Buddhists and Taoists and all the others are Pagan.  

[Starlock]

Paganism can, technically, be defined as thus but it is probably among the most useless definitions to use. I'd hazard a guess that most modern Pagans do NOT have that definition in mind when they use the term, but mean something a tad more specific by it. There are plenty of correct usages of the term "Pagan;" one simply has to clarify which one is being used in conversation. I use something more similar to what Gawqueen stated because the broader definition is almost utterly useless in conversation. If someone is non-Abrahamic, I say they're non-Abrahamic, not "Pagan."

Milendil, no amount of driving the point "because Gardner said so" is going to convince most folks, especially since most drawn to Neopaganism reject that sort of authoritativeness from the get go. Religions evolve beyond their founders and on top of that, words evolve to be applied to new things as well. Traditional, initiatory Wicca is indeed an oathbound system. There are also many OTHER systems that identify as Wicca which do not share these qualities That's just the way it is. Whether or not both sorts of systems should be called Wicca is up to personal choice; the fact is both DO exist and both claim the title Wicca.  

[loahnuh]

I have been practicing Paganism for about a year now and I started off a Wicca, the first time I ever heard of Wicca's practices and beliefs were on Wiki and Gardeners name stuck in my head specifically as the man who popularized Wicca and Paganism in the 1950's, I know nothing really about his covens practices or traditions nor do I care, I am more concerned with finding my own way with the guidance of the Mother and Father as well as the other 7 goddesses I follow.

But here in comes the problem that has plagued the Abrahamic faiths for millenia, individual beliefs leads to fighting over who is right and wrong and that is what I see starting here.

Paganism is a truly open system of beliefs, where people have a lot more pull in what they can believe and have a lot more tolerance towards others as well, it is these that helped attract me to the faith in the first place and I would truly be crushed if it evaporated because of a couple of intolerant individuals.